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Is it though? Weaver increases an invulnerable by one or gives a 5+, so if your getting hit by sometime with high str and high damage like laz cannons or missile launchers weaver can make a bigger difference than agonies. Agonies is better when dealing with low damage, high number of wounds like bolter fire or assault cannons.

Not saying agonies won't get used more, but I think using weaver on high toughness units like predators or hellbrutes could be more useful.

Having said that I am afraid that all the Tsons legion trait will be is something invulnerable related and with the number of mortal wounds out there making those a non issue our tsons won't be as tough as nurgle like they should be.

They're actually all useful. Weavers is better on tanks for the anti-armor weapons, Agonies is better on infantry for the anti-horde weapons, and Miasma is better on Characters because they eventually roll poorly when saving.

Well, have a rather sucsseful 1600 point game today, thought I might as well share.

We played under CSM codex point costs and weapons choices for rubrics, so points are slightly off compared to what battlescribe would say.

My list was:
Foot Ahriman
Foot Exalted (staff)
Rubrics (axe/boltpistol sorcerer, 7 bolters, soulreaper)
Rubrics (axe/boltpistol sorcerer, 7 bolters, soulreaper)
Scarabs (staff/bolter sorcerer, 3 regulars, 1 with both the soulreaper and the missiles)
Scarabs (staff/bolter sorcerer, 3 regulars, 1 with both the soulreaper and the missiles)
Helbrute (twin heavy bolter, scourge)
Helbrute (twin heavy bolter, scourge)
Horrors (11 blues, 3 brimes)
Horrors (11 blues, 3 brimes)


My opponent was my usual necron opponent, this time he brought (about)
Szearus
Overlord
18 warriors
10 warriors+ghost arc
10 warriors+ghost arc
sentry pylon (melta cannon)
tomb stalker (with gloom)


Using the "campaign matrix" as our mission selection tool, as we found it to be great fun and has many varied missions mixed in, I went for Hold and he did Advance, so we got ourselves into the Blitz mission, with him on the attack.

Overall the list seems to preform rather well. I made a few errors in power selection (like going for death hex, when he didn't bring his usual wraiths. that's what happens when you choose powers on listbuilding), and ahriman somehow failing every other spell somehow (he successfully casted something other than smite only twice the entire game, one warptime and one prescience. he also failed his smite three times.)

Horrors as a meathsield and counter-DS are amazing. though next time I'd probably no bother with putting the brimes in and keep them in reinforcement points.
The scarabs, oh god the scarabs. butchers of many things.
Helbrites seemed to work well as distractions, and cause quite a bit of damage.


End result, at the end of turn 5 I was left with ahriman, wounded exalted (both in hiding) and several horrors.
However, not a single enemy unit was inside the lines, and every single thing sans the necron characters was killed once (and came back)
Rolled for game end, and it did. reroll didn't save it.

Awesome game, the units preformed well, could use tweaking though.

Sounds it. Call me old school but I still prefer flamers than horrors, but for that game the horrors definitely sound like the better option. I try to leave a few points always open for summoning, enough for a greater of tzeentch if I roll lucky. nothing says tactical than having flamers, horrors, deamon prince, or gdot all sitting there and your opponent knowing one of them is going to show up at some point.

I never considered putting the missiles and the reaper cannons on the same model for the rubrics. That's pretty smart.

Azuza001 wrote:
I never considered putting the missiles and the reaper cannons on the same model for the rubrics. That's pretty smart.

This is usually the way to go yes. But keep in mind too that abilities like Gift of Chaos target a model. You can kill specifically the guy with the missiles and reaper cannon.

Azuza001 wrote:
Sounds it. Call me old school but I still prefer flamers than horrors, but for that game the horrors definitely sound like the better option. I try to leave a few points always open for summoning, enough for a greater of tzeentch if I roll lucky. nothing says tactical than having flamers, horrors, deamon prince, or gdot all sitting there and your opponent knowing one of them is going to show up at some point.

I never considered putting the missiles and the reaper cannons on the same model for the rubrics. That's pretty smart.

Well, they are mostly intended as bubblewrap and bugger objective sitters. Didn't know we'd have no objectives to hold until after the mission git rolled, so flamers wouldn't fit the role, but I already got models that are some sort of flamer/spawn midpoint, might try flamers next time.
Any advice on how to make good use of flamers?

Azuza001 wrote:
You can give the mark of tzeench to a predator with quad laz, and if you put it in the second detachment with alpha legion as its legion that makes it -1 to hit and get a 5+ save if I am reading this right. That's one crazy tough pred nut to Crack.

Or am I doing this wrong?

Only INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE benefit from Legion traits. -1 to hit Predators aren't a thing. ^^

A 5++ on a tank isn't as useful as it may seem because lascannons only give -3 to save, so if you can get cover you have a 5+ against the shot anyways. For missile launchers, they don't drop you below a 5+ even without cover.

Hello everyone!

I have a fairly uncompetitive (read: Does not include Magnus) Thousand Sons list and I've come to the conclusion that what I really need is some light infantry to screen my duders because even in rhinos and with a few warpflamers per squad my rubrics tend to get zerged off the board. In my last game, celestine and a squad of seraphim double-moved to cross the board in a single turn, charged and surrounded my rhino, then proceeded to punch it to death insta-gibbing a full 10-man rubric squad with upgrades :/

seems I have five options for this purpose, given that the Death Guard codex included the basic daemons as troops:

1) Tzaangors.

+decent anti-horde melee with the fantasy weapons.
+32mm bases for blockage
+T4
-No psychic-ness
-Bad LD
-Less interaction with cheap buffers than daemon options

2) Cultists

+autoguns and stubbers means might do some wounds with shooting
-Weakest defense per point
-25mm bases
-Bad LD
-Less interaction with cheap buffers than Daemon options


3) Pink Horrors

+T3 as opposed to T2 gives a decent durability boost vs common AI firepower as compared to Blues/Brims
+Full power Smite (if you can get it off)
+32mm base
+Access to cheap buffers like Herald/Changeling
-Expensive compared to everything but tzaangors
-Still only roll 1 die for smiting which is super lame
-Split seems to be pointless because unless im reading it wrong, even if you kill 1 model and add 2, you still count as having lost a model for morale, so if your 10 man pink squad is wiped and replaced with 20 blues, those blues then have to take a 10 model morale test right off the bat.

4) Blue Horrors

+cheaper than pinks
+Cheap buffers
-25mm bases
-still just 1 wound
-Split still useless

5) Brimstone Horrors

+2 wounds makes them almost as durable as pinks
+super duper cheap even after nerf
+still can theoretically cause a mortal wound, just to be annoying
+access to cheap buffers
-25mm bases
-almost no ability to fight


My leanings at the moment are towards a large group of pinks supported by The Changeling for some discount defensive shenanigans and the Treason of Tzeentch spell. That gives the highest defenses plus some ability to be annoying with smites along with the highest base size. It's definitely a toss up between brims and pinks. If someone does tell me I'm understanding the rule wrong with Split, and the Split models don't actually take morale, I think it might actually be worth the points to have a single unit of super-screeners splitting into blues and then brims to hold off opponents for the longest possible time with the smallest possible footprint.

Pink into blues into brimstone are super annoying and hard to get rid of. That is how I would do it.

I use flamers as screen units for things I don't want to get charged. It gets my opponent to shoot at them instead (they will die though so keep in mind this) or try and charge from outside flamer range. Even if they are successful it's a cheap bubble wrap unit that isn't bad.

Offensively I use them as objective holders or swarm dealers. Throw warp time on them to get them into position and things melt.

 BoomWolf wrote:
First, TS will lose dark hereticus, but will gain at least one complete spell list of their own.
So why exactly it would be devastating to magnus? he'll lose warptime, but will gain a whole new book. maybe it will be even better for him for all we know.

If Magnus gains a power similar to Warptime that lets him advance up the board rapidly, I'll be fine with that. The problem is that absent Warptime, Magnus is a bit of a sitting duck. He can't easily hide, and shooty armies will blow him right off the table before he can really do anything. Mortarion doesn't have Warptime, but he at least has the Deathshroud to tank for him, as well as that nice -1 to hit power.

Also, its entirely possible that we have more than one spell list, one of the few things that make TS unique is the different "cults" within it, 5 subsides with each their own outlook on psyker powers. the system exists in 30k and might see something akin to it in 40k.

I'd love to see the Cult Arcana return in some form as well.

Second, giving an "easier casting" ability to a TS army has a case, the GK codex already does exactly that. no reason to believe the TS won't at least have something of the sorts.

Sounds good to me.

You also forgot Ahriman in the model list, he's a thing.

It's a fair cop. But that leaves us with five unique models (a few more if daemons are included in the codex). That's still not an awful lot.

And the fact that exalted sorcerers is a good spot to create multiple character types rule-wise. 7 of the DG new units are a single-model character thing, and exalteds are exactly where the "psychic might" aspect can be expanded upon.
HOWEVER, do not expect even for a second we will be nearly as complete as the DG are. the DG are the "wallpaper villain" of this edition, we are not. they got a hell lot of lose to make them a proper "showcase" army-we are not the showcase army.

As it comes to models, the very best we'll get is a single dual-kit. don't expect anything crazy.

Fair enough, but I still think something else is in order. I just don't see how you can do a full codex with five unique units plus some daemons. Hell, like I wrote before, port over some Tzaangor options from AoS if necessary.

The twin-sword dudes, the Khenetai, are not terminators.
And I find it hard seeing them having a purpose in a TS army to begin with-being slow moving rubric is a bad starting point for an assault unit.

You're right, I had forgotten that they aren't Termies. That being said, I can see making Rubric assault troops work, assuming that the Aspiring Sorcerer can swap out his gimpy Smite for a Warptime-esque power that lets the squad move down the field quickly.

The Ammatara would be much preferable, being snipers (that chaos is general currently has none of) and all. however they didn't even get 30k models yet, and they are in recon armor that doesn't really fit rubrication.

Fair enough.

Osirion Dreadnaught would be awesome, but highly unlikely.
Ditto Castellax-Achaea.

GW doesn't seem to directly port from 30k to 40k after all. even the deathshroud are not the same. (neither are the SoC, though that's explainable by the rubrication)

Probably true, but I'm holding out hope. Besides, I'm not suggesting that the models have to be direct ports. A dreadnought that's clearly a Rubric take on an Osirion would still be awesome.

But my essential concern still stands: I just don't see how the current range of TS models will support a full codex. I honestly think GW will have to add a few more models (not many), and seriously beef up the sorcery options available to the TS.

Errrm, Blues and Brimes are T3 as well mate. not T2.
And brimes are 1 wound, not 2.

Are you confusing 7th edition rules here?

If you want to just swarm the board with bodies to soak bullets/charges, you can't get much better than brimes.


As for why split is useless-not because of moral, but because you need to pay reinforcement points for the newly created mini-horrors.
There is some value in doing it though-mainly the fact you can decide when and where you want more bodies as your dudes start dying, so if for example you got 2 units of 10 blues, and 10 brimes in reinforcement points-you can throw the brimes wherever blues start dying, and as such they are sort of "in limbo" of being at both squads at once until something dies.


Basically, brimes are best chaff, because even at 1 wound-they out-endure anything point-compared (T3 with 4++ at 3 points a piece)
If the only thing you want is a wound soaker-get these guys.
However, if you do use mainly brimes, get one blue to be the smite focus, so trying smites won't cost you bodies.


Blues are my personal go-to, because they can smite without killing themselves (unlike brimes), and mortal wounds stack up quite well, and they can do the "limbo squad size/place" trick with splitting into brimes. (just don't bother splitting when you're getting a bad moral roll, you'll just lose models.), at 5 PPM they are still useful as chaff, but they got a few more tricks up their sleeves than brimes (though amusingly, brimes are better at CC due to more attacks. there is no effective difference between S1 and S2 99% of the time.)
Blues are a good midpoint. cheap enough to be chaffy, but got a few decent tricks up their sleeves that brimes don't.


Pinks are, something. at 8PPM you are not any more durable than the blues, and can't smite any better unless you got yourself 10 or more, BUT they got a shooting attack. S3 assault 2 18" is nothing to write home about, but its something to help thin enemy hordes (who are a bit of an issue for us), and they out CC the blues, and often the brimes as well (because S3 melee now wounds T4 on 5+ rather than 6+ and coupled with better WS they'll get more wounds in per model. but not per point.)
These guys make the best line troopers from the horrors, but the points add up fast, and out TS are already mean line troopers. pinks are great, but I don't think we need them.




Naturally, if you play power levels-pink all the way, as in power levels splitting is "free", and pinks and brimes "cost" the same to begin with.



Nothing to say about cultists and tazzangors, as I never tried them, but neither seems as useful as horrors in my eyes.

Just a heads up... Plaguebearers and other Nurgle daemons being in the Death Guard codex does not make them Death Guard troops. They lack the Death Guard keyword. Taking them will break your detachment and surrender your Legion traits and rules.

Same with Thousand Sons, most likely. Brimstones are not troop choices for us come the codex. You can summon them into existence if you leave reinforcement points open and give up your sorcerer's movement but you can't start with them on the board unless you take a separate detachment with an HQ changeling. Which is still what people will end up doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
My list was:
Foot Ahriman
Foot Exalted (staff)
Rubrics (axe/boltpistol sorcerer, 7 bolters, soulreaper)
Rubrics (axe/boltpistol sorcerer, 7 bolters, soulreaper)
Scarabs (staff/bolter sorcerer, 3 regulars, 1 with both the soulreaper and the missiles)
Scarabs (staff/bolter sorcerer, 3 regulars, 1 with both the soulreaper and the missiles)
Helbrute (twin heavy bolter, scourge)
Helbrute (twin heavy bolter, scourge)
Horrors (11 blues, 3 brimes)
Horrors (11 blues, 3 brimes)

That list adds up in so many different ways depending on what points you are using. I even got 1557 using the standard rules without Battlescribe.

Something Battlescribe does wrong for example is the Aspiring Sorcerer point cost. They have them listed as only 18 pts for Rubrics in the Codex, and 30 pts for Rubrics in the Index. Except the missing entry from the Chaos Codex was not an intended point reduction, it was oversight. The French Chaos Codex still has the Aspiring Sorcerer listed in the point costs, albeit at 20 pts for a notable point reduction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaGbSKMaARU

Have people found the Changeling makes a big difference or not? Seems to me that Magnus would out pace him and get out of range fairly quickly. I'm curious as to how people have been mitigating that. Is the -1 worth an extra round of shooting or so?

Widied wrote:
Have people found the Changeling makes a big difference or not? Seems to me that Magnus would out pace him and get out of range fairly quickly. I'm curious as to how people have been mitigating that. Is the -1 worth an extra round of shooting or so?

Biggest thing he does is lets Magnus survive turn 1 easier. Magnus hasn't yet received his 3+ invuln by then.

After that, he's mostly to make Brimstones tanky. If you play with Lords of Change or Heralds or Exalted Sorcerers then he can keep your long range smite line well protected.

Whoever it was that recommended I just replace all of my anti-tank with smiting characters, I thank you. I took the following list against a Drukhari vehicle spam list (4 raiders, 2 razorwings and a tantalus) and was able to crack open the ships with ease through sheer volume of smite.



It's crazy how much damage the spell does; I felt like my Exalted Sorcerers earned their place just from their ability to smite, the other spells they could cast were just icing on the cake. I might replace one of them with a Terminator Sorcerer to drop with my Scarabs but I'm not sure yet.

Yeah smite is crazy good when you spam it and a list like that will have little to worry about other than a certain assassin or a counter smite army.

@Arachnofiend,

Did you have perils, and if so how it went? Seems like that amount of smiting would cause some unwanted explosions.

Also, how did hou keep all the characters safe? And, however you divided the non-smite spells, didnt you end up wasting a lot of casts, with that many Excalteds?

But glad to hear TS works!

Br,

Timo

I was pretty lucky as far as perils go, only did it twice and both times were double sixes. I imagine it could have easily gone differently, lol. I basically kept the characters in a box with the two Rhinos covering for them, which kinda back fired when one of the razorwings was able to fly behind the cluster and get closest to Ahriman (that was just bad positioning on my part). Fortunately the Changeling is really good and the razorwing only ended up doing 2 wounds to him.

I feel like I would have suffered more against a deep strike centered army but I suppose I could have kept the Rubrics out of the rhinos for a bigger screen in that case.

I did get some mileage out of the melee potential of Exalted Sorcerers, so that was nice. I probably would have been better served just taking more tzeentch heralds instead but I like to make my lists future-proof for when the codex comes out.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I did get some mileage out of the melee potential of Exalted Sorcerers, so that was nice. I probably would have been better served just taking more tzeentch heralds instead but I like to make my lists future-proof for when the codex comes out.

But as was asked, didn't you waste a lot of the Exalted Sorcerer's potential? They can each cast 2 powers, but you can only cast Smite once. Taking a 163 point model just to cast Smite with it ONCE for 1d3 mortal wounds IF THEY SUCCEED THE CAST is kind of a waste. You would have dealt more wounds using a Predator or a Heldrake or any other unit.

Stacking Sorcerers has that downside. They can't all use their powers every turn.

My problems with taking a laspred or helbrute for my AV is that they're easy targets to get blasted off the table by the other guy's AV; with characters I don't have that problem. Plus I like the consistency from Smite, your chances of doing something with it are pretty high while shooting lascannons has a number of potential failure points.

Donno, I found my helbrute extremely valuable.

The mere threat I'll warptime - slingshot one into the opponent lines tends to be invaluable. They are afraid to get too close in case a surprise blender hits them.

I'm asking because I'm interested so let's get other opinions.

How fare your Exalted Sorcerers? To anyone who runs them, do you like the Smite-heavy disc army better than the Terminator swarm?

Seems like people play two versions of Thousand Sons. The daemon-heavy one features lots of heralds, discs, changeling, and horrors while the inferno lists feature Rubric Rhinos, Scarabs, Ahriman, Magnus, and Tzaangors. Sometimes a Heldrake just for flavor.

 Arkaine wrote:
How fare your Exalted Sorcerers?

They're fine, but imo they're way too expensive for a "smite-heavy" army. You get 3 or 4 Malefic lords for the cost of a single Exalted sorcerer.

I've downgraded mines to regular Sorcerers and it works just as well, for a fraction of the cost. You lose mobility, the aura and the 5++, but get enough points back for 5 or 6 Rubrics (or 20-30 cultists to act as chaff / hold objectives).

Our Exalted Sorcerers need to have the same "re-roll ones" aura that Lords get, because right now their aura sucks.

 Arkaine wrote:
I'm asking because I'm interested so let's get other opinions.

How fare your Exalted Sorcerers? To anyone who runs them, do you like the Smite-heavy disc army better than the Terminator swarm?

Seems like people play two versions of Thousand Sons. The daemon-heavy one features lots of heralds, discs, changeling, and horrors while the inferno lists feature Rubric Rhinos, Scarabs, Ahriman, Magnus, and Tzaangors. Sometimes a Heldrake just for flavor.

I use a slightly fluffy list. Thousand Sons are a low number Legion. They rarely ever bring any high number of actual legion members to bare. So I backfill my army lists with Daemon Engines and Tzaangors. For the most part, here is what I play:

HQ:
- Either Ahriman or if I feel he's too good, an exalted sorc. Both either on or off disc.
- Daemon Prince
- Sorc in Termie armor

Troops:
- 10 man squad of Rubrics, or if the game is big enough, two
- 30 man Tzaangor squad

Elite:
- Helbrute
- Scarab Occult Termies (I have 2 Aspiring Sorcs and 12 Terminators)

Flyer:
- Heldrake

LoW:
- Big Red

So in my games, I rarely field more than a squad or two of Thousand Sons and so far the army is doing great. Now we are semi-competitive around here. Not quite casual (there will always be 'that guy' so we have to keep our lists somewhat good) but not tournament worthy either. My current score is 12-2. I've never fielded the SOTs yet, but I've played everything else. The general strategy is to rush the field with flying units and warptimed helbrutes/tzaangors backed up with a DP and Ahriman/Exalted Sorc for the re-rolls. The Heldrake never, and I mean never gets to do much damage, even with the Baleflamer, however he has to be the most annoying model to my enemies as he's always in contact first turn against something that presents a threat to my army in the shooting phase. They are forced to withdraw that unit, which is still basically tying it up.

 nintura wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
I'm asking because I'm interested so let's get other opinions.

How fare your Exalted Sorcerers? To anyone who runs them, do you like the Smite-heavy disc army better than the Terminator swarm?

Seems like people play two versions of Thousand Sons. The daemon-heavy one features lots of heralds, discs, changeling, and horrors while the inferno lists feature Rubric Rhinos, Scarabs, Ahriman, Magnus, and Tzaangors. Sometimes a Heldrake just for flavor.

I use a slightly fluffy list. Thousand Sons are a low number Legion. They rarely ever bring any high number of actual legion members to bare. So I backfill my army lists with Daemon Engines and Tzaangors. For the most part, here is what I play:

HQ:
- Either Ahriman or if I feel he's too good, an exalted sorc. Both either on or off disc.
- Daemon Prince
- Sorc in Termie armor

Troops:
- 10 man squad of Rubrics, or if the game is big enough, two
- 30 man Tzaangor squad

Elite:
- Helbrute
- Scarab Occult Termies (I have 2 Aspiring Sorcs and 12 Terminators)

Flyer:
- Heldrake

LoW:
- Big Red

So in my games, I rarely field more than a squad or two of Thousand Sons and so far the army is doing great. Now we are semi-competitive around here. Not quite casual (there will always be 'that guy' so we have to keep our lists somewhat good) but not tournament worthy either. My current score is 12-2. I've never fielded the SOTs yet, but I've played everything else. The general strategy is to rush the field with flying units and warptimed helbrutes/tzaangors backed up with a DP and Ahriman/Exalted Sorc for the re-rolls. The Heldrake never, and I mean never gets to do much damage, even with the Baleflamer, however he has to be the most annoying model to my enemies as he's always in contact first turn against something that presents a threat to my army in the shooting phase. They are forced to withdraw that unit, which is still basically tying it up.

Your list is very similar to the one I've been working on and it sounds for much the same reasons. So I'm glad to hear yours is doing well!!!! My environment is generally the same, in that it's semi-competitive so I like to build strong armies but not necessarily broken ones. So I'm fine without playing the full on tzeentch approach. My question to you is how do you field your Tzangor? I have twenty at the moment but Im unsure as to how to load them out? Swords or guns? I'm thinking swords.

Widied wrote:


Your list is very similar to the one I've been working on and it sounds for much the same reasons. So I'm glad to hear yours is doing well!!!! My environment is generally the same, in that it's semi-competitive so I like to build strong armies but not necessarily broken ones. So I'm fine without playing the full on tzeentch approach. My question to you is how do you field your Tzangor? I have twenty at the moment but Im unsure as to how to load them out? Swords or guns? I'm thinking swords.

I run the full 30 with swords. They have the instrument so they get the +1" to advance and run. Might as well make their purpose specialized. I run a sorc behind them to assist with Invuln saves, and cast Fates as well. Sometimes I'll run a DP behind them for re-rolling misses too If you really want to make enemies and you have first turn, Warp Time them too.

I run the full 30 with swords. They have the instrument so they get the +1" to advance and run. Might as well make their purpose specialized. I run a sorc behind them to assist with Invuln saves, and cast Fates as well. Sometimes I'll run a DP behind them for re-rolling misses too If you really want to make enemies and you have first turn, Warp Time them too.

Cool. Thanks for the quick response! That is the direction I was heading in. They seem like they would be extremely annoying and from the way you make it sound, even more so if you make it impossible to ignore them.

Did Rubrics get any cheaper in the new csm codex?

Widied wrote:

I run the full 30 with swords. They have the instrument so they get the +1" to advance and run. Might as well make their purpose specialized. I run a sorc behind them to assist with Invuln saves, and cast Fates as well. Sometimes I'll run a DP behind them for re-rolling misses too If you really want to make enemies and you have first turn, Warp Time them too.

Cool. Thanks for the quick response! That is the direction I was heading in. They seem like they would be extremely annoying and from the way you make it sound, even more so if you make it impossible to ignore them.

Did Rubrics get any cheaper in the new csm codex?

Lemme check, though I think we have to use the Index version.

They went from 8 to 7. And can take a Soulreaper in the regular squad of 5 now and a second one if you have 20 in the squad.

Thanks Nintura! Do you think it's more beneficial now to go with two units of five instead of a blob of ten? The soulreaper doesn't seem worth it on termies because their storm bolters nearly put out the same volume with one str lower. But on these guys trudging forward, could be more ideal.