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 Weazel wrote:
Fenrisian Wolves 2x10 or 3x6 as bubble wrap against Smite spam. Yay or nay?

Not a bad choice. I would take 3 units personally as that is a Outrider detachment if you an an HQ. They protect against smite spam and also prevent Deep Striking near valuable units. If they get ignored early on, you can use them late-game to harass depleted enemy units or contest distant objectives.

3 Small units of Cyberwolves might be more cost effective. If you are using them for smite protection then points per wound becomes paramount.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Fenrisian Wolves 2x10 or 3x6 as bubble wrap against Smite spam. Yay or nay?

Not a bad choice. I would take 3 units personally as that is a Outrider detachment if you an an HQ. They protect against smite spam and also prevent Deep Striking near valuable units. If they get ignored early on, you can use them late-game to harass depleted enemy units or contest distant objectives.

3 Small units of Cyberwolves might be more cost effective. If you are using them for smite protection then points per wound becomes paramount.

Hadn't actually noticed Cyberwolves are even cheaper wounds, thanks. And more survivable against traditional attacks as well. That Ld4 is going to be a problem without a Priest though... But I guess if you place them properly the whole unit just vaporizes to Smites and morale never becomes an issue.

Yay. But you need to boost their morale or they simply evaporate. I.e. a Wolf Priest or Warlord with LD aura trait nearby.
It's also good vs T1 charges and deepstrikers. I always take some Wolves.
And when you don't need a screen, they could grab objectives or engage shooty enemies.

Just be careful when facing Grey Knights with Vortex. Keep more than 3" between your units

edit: fenris vs. cyber: yes, you get more wounds on cybers but more attacks and more space coverd on fenrisians. Depends on what you need. If you know that you face smite spam, cybers are better, but fenrisians are the TAC choice



edit2: cybers are great if they screen something that includes a Rune Priest with Storm Caller

Ragnar69 wrote:
Wolf Guard Battle Leader with TH/SS and Jump Pack is only 103 points.

Long Fangs with their inbuilt reroll are also good. Place them in cover and screen them from deepstrikers, then they may live to actually use their reroll

Great points. I combine the long fangs reroll of 1's to hit with the WGBL reroll of 1's to wound. I take two squads of long fangs to make it worth my while keeping a 77 point (I prefer the pair of wolf claws in this case to keep him cheaper but still take the jump pack) buff in the back lines. He also is a good assist when someone wants to deep strike in front of them.

Trying to make a descision but struggling to get the playtesting in to make it happen so what do you guys think is better?

Jumpin' Wolf Guard with Combi-Plasma and Storm Shields at 220 points

Intercessors with Plasma Exterminators for 258 points.

Plasma Intercessors look too pricey to me. Add to that with 4 shots each, over-charging is really risky as it only take a single 1 to kill a model outright. Intercessors have 2 wounds compared to the WG's 1 so each overheat is twice as costly.

I have actually found Rapid Fire Hellblasters to be the best plasma platform for Wolves. March them up the field with a Wolf Lord or Bjorn and they can really lay down some serious firepower. I have had them burn down a Hellbrute with a single volley which greatly impressed me.

Probably my impatience speaking but I love jumpers.
They force the enemy to deploy in ways that are defensive to block deepstrike rather than optimal to offensive strategies meaning I get to play a game rather than be brutalised on the first turn.

I constantly hear wonderful things about Hellblasters but have never really played them myself - what are they like for a mostly mobile army?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

I constantly hear wonderful things about Hellblasters but have never really played them myself - what are they like for a mostly mobile army?

I find them good. Their 30" range combined with Rapid Fire means they provide a decent sized threat-bubble and within 15" they can really lay down the hurt. You do need a reroll character to babysit them though. I normally run Bjorn and they make a decent bodyguard for him.

In a fully mechanised army as they need a Repulsor which is a lot of points but can bring some decent firepower itself. In a mixed or footslogging army though, they rock.

Finally picked up some cheap bikes, so im running S.S. and plasma wolfguard bikers 280 points and they will run with Bjorn for flanking shenanigans!!

Fast - shooty (twin bolters/combi plas) - High S - 3++ - Bjorn Reroll - Bjorn bodyguard.

COLD CASH wrote:
Finally picked up some cheap bikes, so im running S.S. and plasma wolfguard bikers 280 points and they will run with Bjorn for flanking shenanigans!!

Fast - shooty (twin bolters/combi plas) - High S - 3++ - Bjorn Reroll - Bjorn bodyguard.

Only problem with bikes is when your opponent can lay down mortal wounds like candy.
Lost two units of bikes to a Decimator engine in a re-roll to hit bubble - 560-ish points gone in the first turn and didn't even get to roll a save.
I find Wulfen or Ven Dreads make a better escort for Bjorn.

I agree, that's why I always include in expensive units like bikers, terminators or TWC a couple of cheap dudes with no upgrades. They're the first ones to be removed if the units receives mortal wounds or hits with no AP that invalidate the storm shield's invuln.

A unit of 6 bikes could work with 3-4 combi plasmas and 2-3 storm bolters imho, if you really want the plasma biker unit. I prefer giving storm bolters to all of them and using footslogging wolf guards with combi plasmas embarked in a rhino or razorback.

It has a very Tyranid or Guard-ish feel to take meat shields but it's probably a good move.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

COLD CASH wrote:
Finally picked up some cheap bikes, so im running S.S. and plasma wolfguard bikers 280 points and they will run with Bjorn for flanking shenanigans!!

Fast - shooty (twin bolters/combi plas) - High S - 3++ - Bjorn Reroll - Bjorn bodyguard.

Only problem with bikes is when your opponent can lay down mortal wounds like candy.
Lost two units of bikes to a Decimator engine in a re-roll to hit bubble - 560-ish points gone in the first turn and didn't even get to roll a save.
I find Wulfen or Ven Dreads make a better escort for Bjorn.

Yeah, that's one of those things that I don't personally think is fair. Mortal wounds are fine and all, but a unit that can shoot 4d3 of mortal wounds at anything it looks at seems over power to me. Thankfully it's only range 24" so yeah, keep your elites away from it and destroy it from afar with something with range. This is what laz cannon long fangs are for!

Azuza001 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

COLD CASH wrote:
Finally picked up some cheap bikes, so im running S.S. and plasma wolfguard bikers 280 points and they will run with Bjorn for flanking shenanigans!!

Fast - shooty (twin bolters/combi plas) - High S - 3++ - Bjorn Reroll - Bjorn bodyguard.

Only problem with bikes is when your opponent can lay down mortal wounds like candy.
Lost two units of bikes to a Decimator engine in a re-roll to hit bubble - 560-ish points gone in the first turn and didn't even get to roll a save.
I find Wulfen or Ven Dreads make a better escort for Bjorn.

Yeah, that's one of those things that I don't personally think is fair. Mortal wounds are fine and all, but a unit that can shoot 4d3 of mortal wounds at anything it looks at seems over power to me. Thankfully it's only range 24" so yeah, keep your elites away from it and destroy it from afar with something with range. This is what laz cannon long fangs are for!

I find having ranged stuff at as many of the four corners of the table as possible seems to work well against beasties like that.
You want to kill my stuff? Learn to hunt.

Hey friends. While we are on the bikes + Bjorn topic. I find that wolf guard bikers with storm bolters (much cheaper than plasma) plus their stock twin linked bolters l and the trusty storm shield can put out a lot of dakka. Can have more bodies and get more retooling to synergies with bjorns aura. Don’t get me wrong. Plasma wolf guard bikers are mean, but I LOVE surrounding Bjorn with a metric cr*p ton of bolters and spearheading into middle of the board. Toss a rune priest for added armor save bonus and some ever annoying dual assault canon razorbacks....

I think everyone should field a decent amount of ranged anti infantry in this edition. SW basically have wolf guards bikers with stormbolters, razorbacks with twin assault cannons and maybe footslogging wolf guards with chainswords and stormbolters in a rhino, plus the crusader and long fangs with missiles but these two options are quite expensive for what they actually do.

Plasma bikers are also solid but you can stick footslogging wolf guards with plasmas in a rhino or field long fangs with plasma cannons that are probably more effective for the same cost.

Bikers with plasma are 50 points dudes with only 2 wounds each, they will mostly be a bullet magnet in the army which is something that can also be useful sometimes but in my experience even with stormbolters those bikes attract a huge amount of firepower anyway.

Maybe I'm just being overly dramatic about this and maybe it's just my meta but Bikers are driving me up the wall. Space Wolf Bikers have such wonderful options and output but I always seem to wind up against mortal wound shooters when I use them.

I usually have TWC and terminators other than bikes, than can be targeted by mortal wounds shooters. And even with that redundancy I consider the bikes too fragile to be actually equipped with something different than stormbolters and a few shields.

I had been thinking of adding a cadian tank squadron of leman russ and pask as a way to increase my wolves dakka and threat priority. But that seems like quite a pain to get all the models and then paint it all up.

IN your guys opinion what mechanized Lord of war would serve the wolves best in this role? as girly also seems too diffcult to easily add in.

shadowsword?
Relic sumthing?
Crusader knight?

Yeah bikes have been very underwhelming for me, but in my main SM army i run rifle dreads and they just eat bikes. Even with the bikes having storm shields the dreads should kill 2-4 bikes a turn with roubute rerolls. So i just don't see them being durable enough for an enemy that is afraid of them to not just wipe them out, because that's what i would do.

Knights seem to be quite expensive in 8th although a Crusader does bring respectable firepower.

Some of the Relic tanks are nice but not everyone plays FW (it is rare in my area at least).

Shadowsword seems to have the firepower you are looking for although it is perhaps the least "wolfy".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread might be enlightening.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/742304.page

Cheers thats some good info but now im wondering what a baneblade is like lol.

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah bikes have been very underwhelming for me, but in my main SM army i run rifle dreads and they just eat bikes. Even with the bikes having storm shields the dreads should kill 2-4 bikes a turn with roubute rerolls. So i just don't see them being durable enough for an enemy that is afraid of them to not just wipe them out, because that's what i would do.

Just about any ranged Dread is in a solid place against Bikers - 43%-ish chance of getting past the Biker's shield and they sit in that wonderful spot where all the Dread's optional ranged weapons seem to perform equally well against them - Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Assault Canons can put out more shots to begin with, Twin Las Canons deal more damage. Nothing needs more than a 4+ to wound, most wound on a 3+. Dread sets you back about 130 points upwards, Swift Claws are 31ppm, Wolf Guard Bikers are 34+ppm.
Dread kills a basic five-man squad of Blood Claws and it has just paid for itself.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah bikes have been very underwhelming for me, but in my main SM army i run rifle dreads and they just eat bikes. Even with the bikes having storm shields the dreads should kill 2-4 bikes a turn with roubute rerolls. So i just don't see them being durable enough for an enemy that is afraid of them to not just wipe them out, because that's what i would do.

Just about any ranged Dread is in a solid place against Bikers - 43%-ish chance of getting past the Biker's shield and they sit in that wonderful spot where all the Dread's optional ranged weapons seem to perform equally well against them - Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Assault Canons can put out more shots to begin with, Twin Las Canons deal more damage. Nothing needs more than a 4+ to wound, most wound on a 3+. Dread sets you back about 130 points upwards, Swift Claws are 31ppm, Wolf Guard Bikers are 34+ppm.
Dread kills a basic five-man squad of Blood Claws and it has just paid for itself.

But if that Dread is shooting your bikes, he's not shooting at your TWC or Wulfen, which should be the real threat vectors of a SW list. I still plan to run some Wolf Guard bikers. They might even get a price drop whenever SW get their codex, after all regular Marines and Chaos Marines got a price drop with theirs.

And at least in my meta, I've never even seen a Rifleman Dread, so I don't think they are all that common. Probably has to do with the fact that the kit doesn't come with autocannon arms and many players can't or won't get the FW ones.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah bikes have been very underwhelming for me, but in my main SM army i run rifle dreads and they just eat bikes. Even with the bikes having storm shields the dreads should kill 2-4 bikes a turn with roubute rerolls. So i just don't see them being durable enough for an enemy that is afraid of them to not just wipe them out, because that's what i would do.

Just about any ranged Dread is in a solid place against Bikers - 43%-ish chance of getting past the Biker's shield and they sit in that wonderful spot where all the Dread's optional ranged weapons seem to perform equally well against them - Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Assault Canons can put out more shots to begin with, Twin Las Canons deal more damage. Nothing needs more than a 4+ to wound, most wound on a 3+. Dread sets you back about 130 points upwards, Swift Claws are 31ppm, Wolf Guard Bikers are 34+ppm.
Dread kills a basic five-man squad of Blood Claws and it has just paid for itself.

But if that Dread is shooting your bikes, he's not shooting at your TWC or Wulfen, which should be the real threat vectors of a SW list. I still plan to run some Wolf Guard bikers. They might even get a price drop whenever SW get their codex, after all regular Marines and Chaos Marines got a price drop with theirs.

And at least in my meta, I've never even seen a Rifleman Dread, so I don't think they are all that common. Probably has to do with the fact that the kit doesn't come with autocannon arms and many players can't or won't get the FW ones.

The only time you'll see a Rifleman Dread is in a "Mirror Match" with another Space Wolves player. Bjorn + Rifleman Dread covered by a shield and axe Dread and Iron Priest or a pack of Wulfen is a solid combo.
In my Meta the problem with Bikes is the amount of people who can and do toss out mortal wounds quicker than Santa tosses candy. Wulfen and Ven Dreads get FnP saves against mortal wounds, then the Iron Priest can repair the Dread, pity Wolf Priests are too expensive to take to heal Wulfen. The next problem is Imperial Guard, my Storm Shields are useless because they're not getting Save Modifiers anyhow.

If there was a way of keeping the bikes safer I'd be all for them, their firepower is amazing, their mobility is amazing, their shield is amazing it's just in my meta I'm always facing Guard or Mortal Wound flingers.

So I've been eyeballing my wolves lately, trying to decide what to do with them. I loved running blackmanes in 7th, but with pod price and reserve rules, it just isn't very feasible, even for casual games. I don't think I want to run razorback rush, because my death guard will be running rhino rush, and why have 2 armies if you play them the same on the table?

So can SW work as a fast attack army? I've seen a lot of talk about wolf guard bikes, TWC seem to still be pretty good. I've got +15 jump infantry and 10 wulfen that have been gathering dust for a bit, and a good chunk of TDA and more fenrisian wolves than I can shake a stick at!

Would min troops, and then a chunk of TWC, WG bikers, swiftclaws and wulfen, maybe some TDA dropping in be at all competitive? I feel like I would get shot down pretty hard, and have trouble with fliers.

As it stands minus dreads and long fangs wolves don’t have much that is competitive. Bikes out out metric ton of shots but get wreck by mass fire power or mortal wounds, and twc are hot garbage. Wulfen are nice but require a lot of points to get anywhere.

Well 3 units of GH with Razorbacks and fast attack choices on top of that backed by at least a couple units of Long Fangs is a feasible list, but SW are not really competitive at the moment. We definitely need some chapter tactics and stratagems to stay in the game. I'm hoping the Chapter Approved throws us a bone, otherwise I'll just keep my wolves benched until the codex drops... Maybe Russ brings us back in a big way.

Ironically I'm moving into Orks who have it even worse than SW currently... guess I just enjoy pain.

oz of the north wrote:
As it stands minus dreads and long fangs wolves don’t have much that is competitive. Bikes out out metric ton of shots but get wreck by mass fire power or mortal wounds, and twc are hot garbage. Wulfen are nice but require a lot of points to get anywhere.

Dreadnoughts you say? Is it the shield/axe dreads that are so good? I've got 8 SW dreads, a contemptor and a leviathan. Just got a second kit of long fangs, which will also be magnetized.

Yeah the shield axe dreads, I’m still in process of building mine, but have been told they’re good.