Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Christoph wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
The argument was "Is the Index datasheet the correct datasheet for the model or the codex one". The answer, as it turns out, is both.

Nope, it still says to use the one that is appropriate to your model, albeit not spelled out that way. The answer allowing the Index version is, "But you can choose the index version for its wargear options". It doesn't say to only use the wargear options from the index version.

the big box at the bottom of the chart wrote:
For example, if you wished to use a Commissar with a Power Axe, you would check if the Codex has a datasheet for Commissars. It does, so you would use this datasheet - however, it does not support the wargear options which allow him to replace his power sword with a power axe, so you would use the Commissar wargear options from Index Imperium 2.

I have seen plenty of official resolution that created more scope for differing interpretation, but the accompanying commentary seems to see this issue up.

Which puts a lie to what is stated in chart. Putting it as "use the index version for its wargear options", is not the same as "use the index version's wargear options".

The first phrase indicates to use the whole old thing in order to use the small part. The second phrase indicates to use just the one part of the old thing instead of using all of it.

The chart says the first, while the box says the second. The initial statement which brought the numerous pages of this discussion supports the first phrase.

Jesus feth...

you would check if the Codex has a datasheet for Commissars. It does, so you would use this datasheet

What does that say about which datasheet you should be using?

Un-fething-believable.

That we've gone onto another page since the the flowchart explaining how it works is what's unbelievable.

Its one page. The flow chart clearly tells you you always use the latest datasheet. Codex if its in the codex. Index if its not. You can use index wargear options if they are diferent from the codex datasheet, but your still paying codex points, using codex profiles, and using the codex datasheet.

On the SAME page they then clarify this incredibly easy to read and understand flow chart with multiple examples.

You know what... Im done now. Charistoph, good luck with your reading.

So am I using only the "wargear options" from the index or do I also use the default wargear from the index?

For example, a codex Autarch comes with a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield (per the errata), and has no options. An index Autarch comes with a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades, and has a bunch of options.

If I want to bring an Autarch with two avenger catapults, does this Autarch also have a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield? Or does he instead have a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades? If the former, is it no longer possible to bring an Autarch with a fusion pistol, since you wouldn't have a shuriken pistol to swap for it?

Dionysodorus wrote:
So am I using only the "wargear options" from the index or do I also use the default wargear from the index?

For example, a codex Autarch comes with a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield (per the errata), and has no options. An index Autarch comes with a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades, and has a bunch of options.

If I want to bring an Autarch with two avenger catapults, does this Autarch also have a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield? Or does he instead have a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades? If the former, is it no longer possible to bring an Autarch with a fusion pistol, since you wouldn't have a shuriken pistol to swap for it?

Only the options that are missing from the codex. The actual datasheet you use is the codex one.

 Lance845 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
So am I using only the "wargear options" from the index or do I also use the default wargear from the index?

For example, a codex Autarch comes with a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield (per the errata), and has no options. An index Autarch comes with a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades, and has a bunch of options.

If I want to bring an Autarch with two avenger catapults, does this Autarch also have a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield? Or does he instead have a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades? If the former, is it no longer possible to bring an Autarch with a fusion pistol, since you wouldn't have a shuriken pistol to swap for it?

Only the options that are missing from the codex. The actual datasheet you use is the codex one.

So, to be clear, your vote is that all foot Autarchs have a star glaive and none have a shuriken pistol, and so you can no longer take a fusion pistol either since you don't have a shuriken pistol to swap for it even though you'd have the option to make that swap if you had a shuriken pistol?

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
So am I using only the "wargear options" from the index or do I also use the default wargear from the index?

For example, a codex Autarch comes with a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield (per the errata), and has no options. An index Autarch comes with a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades, and has a bunch of options.

If I want to bring an Autarch with two avenger catapults, does this Autarch also have a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield? Or does he instead have a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades? If the former, is it no longer possible to bring an Autarch with a fusion pistol, since you wouldn't have a shuriken pistol to swap for it?

Only the options that are missing from the codex. The actual datasheet you use is the codex one.

So, to be clear, your vote is that all foot Autarchs have a star glaive and none have a shuriken pistol, and so you can no longer take a fusion pistol either since you don't have a shuriken pistol to swap for it even though you'd have the option to make that swap if you had a shuriken pistol?

I dont know those datasheets.

What i am saying is what the flowchart says. Once you reach that bottom most box 1) do you have a newer datasheet then the index one? Yes. Then thats the one you use. 2) are their options on the index sheet that are not on the codex sheet? Yes. Then pull those weapon options over from the index and use them.

Does that end up breaking some gak? Yeah. Probably. GW didnt write the codexes taking the indexes into consideration. Shock and awe, now there are inconsistencies.

 Lance845 wrote:
What i am saying is what the flowchart says. Once you reach that bottom most box 1) do you have a newer datasheet then the index one? Yes. Then thats the one you use. 2) are their options on the index sheet that are not on the codex sheet? Yes. Then pull those weapon options over to the index and use them.

Actually the bottom-most box of the flow-chart says to use the index version for its weapon options.

The bottom box of the page with the flow-chart says something else entirely, to only use the Wargear options. The example in the bottom box is not part of the flow-chart.

So do you follow the instructions or the example?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
What i am saying is what the flowchart says. Once you reach that bottom most box 1) do you have a newer datasheet then the index one? Yes. Then thats the one you use. 2) are their options on the index sheet that are not on the codex sheet? Yes. Then pull those weapon options over to the index and use them.

Actually the bottom-most box of the flow-chart says to use the index version for its weapon options.

The bottom box of the page with the flow-chart says something else entirely, to only use the Wargear options. The example in the bottom box is not part of the flow-chart.

So do you follow the instructions or the example?

Im not gunna debate your inability to understand the flowchart.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
What i am saying is what the flowchart says. Once you reach that bottom most box 1) do you have a newer datasheet then the index one? Yes. Then thats the one you use. 2) are their options on the index sheet that are not on the codex sheet? Yes. Then pull those weapon options over to the index and use them.

Actually the bottom-most box of the flow-chart says to use the index version for its weapon options.

The bottom box of the page with the flow-chart says something else entirely, to only use the Wargear options. The example in the bottom box is not part of the flow-chart.

So do you follow the instructions or the example?

Im not gunna debate your inability to understand the flowchart.

Because you can't without misreading it or misrepresenting it.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
What i am saying is what the flowchart says. Once you reach that bottom most box 1) do you have a newer datasheet then the index one? Yes. Then thats the one you use. 2) are their options on the index sheet that are not on the codex sheet? Yes. Then pull those weapon options over to the index and use them.

Actually the bottom-most box of the flow-chart says to use the index version for its weapon options.

The bottom box of the page with the flow-chart says something else entirely, to only use the Wargear options. The example in the bottom box is not part of the flow-chart.

So do you follow the instructions or the example?

Im not gunna debate your inability to understand the flowchart.

Because you can't without misreading it or misrepresenting it.

Because it's a waste of time debating the written word with someone who can't or won't read.

Lance, if you are not going to debate something, you probably shouldn't have three consecutive post saying you are not going to debate it...

As for the whole flowchart versus text question, is it inconceivable to follow both?

What they are telling you, clearly or not, is that you can still use your models that conform to the Index wargear options with the Codex data sheet. Does it really matter how you get to the end result as long as you get there and use the proper point values and rules for the model?

 alextroy wrote:
Lance, if you are not going to debate something, you probably shouldn't have three consecutive post saying you are not going to debate it...

As for the whole flowchart versus text question, is it inconceivable to follow both?

What they are telling you, clearly or not, is that you can still use your models that conform to the Index wargear options with the Codex data sheet. Does it really matter how you get to the end result as long as you get there and use the proper point values and rules for the model?

The issue that comes up (aparently) is two fold.

First, reasonably, wargear on a model is limited by the wording of its options. If a character comes with a melee weapon and a pistol in the index with the option to exchange its default pistol for a different one then that model is limited to only ever having one pistol. Pistol a or pistol b. If in the codex it has no pistol by default, how do you exchange/limit its wargear? If your just saying pay the points for the pistol then whats the limit on how many of what options can they take? A model with 100 pistols is broken. In the other direction without a pistol equiped to exchange how do you get permission for any pistols? Reasonably you could just port over the whole wargear set up including base equipment. Thats hiwpi but i am unsure if its strictly raw. It could be though.

Second, if you decide for whatever reason that you use the whole index datasheet then changes to rules like commisars abilities are no longer changed. You circumvent nerfs by using older datasheets with different actual rules. This, of course, is total nonsense. Why anyone would think this is what happens is beyond me.

How you're still managing to complicate this is beyond me...

 JohnnyHell wrote:
How you're still managing to complicate this is beyond me...

I didnt complicate gak. Someone else asked about their autarchs or whatever. It seems super simple to me. You always use the most current datasheet. You can grab missing wargear options from the index and use them with the most current points values and profiles. Its about as simple as it can be to me.

 Lance845 wrote:
Remember the part where i said im not gunna debate your inability to understand the flowchart? That was direcred to you. Not your argument. You.

Everyone else seems to understand. You not being able to figure it out is your problem. Someone else might be able to help, but i refuse.

So you admit to that being an ad hominem, even though I gave you an opportunity to challenge the argument?

Odds are even that I was learning to read flow charts before you were learned how to walk (admittedly, my elementary school did start me a little early). I can follow the lines of the flow. It is as easy as a Candyland game to follow a flowchart.

Nothing I have stated lately is regarding the actual flow of the diagram, it is between the instructions within the flowchart and the example given.

I can also tell the difference between an instruction and an example.

I can also tell the difference between a direction to use something for a reason, and a direction to use part of something. Do you?

Either address it or don't bother to answer it. Don't just only attack a person.

Last warning for this thread/several posters therein.