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The value of forcing the HQ out of LOS really depends on the terrain.

Breng77 wrote:

Timur wrote:
What's the case with vindicare assassin?He seems good against infantry and ignores invulnerable saves.
But i assume you need two of those to make an impact on the game since one is not likely to kill a character on turn one, and thats whole 180 points which can be spent on a darktalon

And a smart opponent might simply put his important HQs out LoS making the vindicares totally useless

Seems to me that its not worth taking any kind of snipers, since they will probably not be able to kill anything really important in the first turn or two

I agree with this, characters are too easy to hide, or too durable. Snipers are fishing for 6s all the time, which makes them not all that great. Especially when some armies have -1 to hit, so you never get a 6. Snipers were kind of a think when commissars were an issue, but even then those characters could just hide out of LOS. The biggest targets now would be things like primaris psykers etc. If sniper rifles were a free swap or maybe 1 point on scouts they might be ok, but they are too pricey for what they accomplish.

Two things- first, -1 to hit doesn't prevent rolling a 6 to wound, although it does lower the number of opportunities to roll that magic 6. Also, most characters who are not monsters are wounded on 4's, sometimes even 3's (in the case of Guard characters for example). Getting a 6 guarantees a wound, but the target can still fail saves and therefore take more wounds. I do agree that a single unit of snipers is next to useless unless there are like 10 of them in the squad (or more). A pair of such squads, or one squad and a Vindicare assassin, could at least force some tough deployment decisions by your opponent.

So I like the look of the nepilim jet fighter better. Do you guys think anyone will mind if I put the dark talon weapon load on the jet fighter body?

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Timur wrote:
What's the case with vindicare assassin?He seems good against infantry and ignores invulnerable saves.
But i assume you need two of those to make an impact on the game since one is not likely to kill a character on turn one, and thats whole 180 points which can be spent on a darktalon

And a smart opponent might simply put his important HQs out LoS making the vindicares totally useless

Seems to me that its not worth taking any kind of snipers, since they will probably not be able to kill anything really important in the first turn or two

I agree with this, characters are too easy to hide, or too durable. Snipers are fishing for 6s all the time, which makes them not all that great. Especially when some armies have -1 to hit, so you never get a 6. Snipers were kind of a think when commissars were an issue, but even then those characters could just hide out of LOS. The biggest targets now would be things like primaris psykers etc. If sniper rifles were a free swap or maybe 1 point on scouts they might be ok, but they are too pricey for what they accomplish.

Two things- first, -1 to hit doesn't prevent rolling a 6 to wound, although it does lower the number of opportunities to roll that magic 6. Also, most characters who are not monsters are wounded on 4's, sometimes even 3's (in the case of Guard characters for example). Getting a 6 guarantees a wound, but the target can still fail saves and therefore take more wounds. I do agree that a single unit of snipers is next to useless unless there are like 10 of them in the squad (or more). A pair of such squads, or one squad and a Vindicare assassin, could at least force some tough deployment decisions by your opponent.

I use a squad of five Snipers and they are part of my gunline and not part of the screen. I don't expect miracles from them, but against Guard and Orks they can realistically kill the minor supporting cast characters that are important to those armies (Platoon Commanders, Painboyz, Weirdboyz, Astropaths and even Commissars if anybody still takes them). Against major characters they might chip a wound or two off. That doesn't sound like much, but it can make a difference in the final duel.

 Tagony wrote:
So I like the look of the nepilim jet fighter better. Do you guys think anyone will mind if I put the dark talon weapon load on the jet fighter body?

It's the same kit, so you're asking if you just don't build the cathedral on top? I'd think that's fine so long as the weapons are correct. You might mention it to your opponent during deployment. I've thought about doing this too because Dark Talons are so good but I don't much like the model.

Yah, I asked a buddy of mine that goes to more tourneys than I do and he agrees. To me, as long as the right weapon load is on it and i'm specific to my opponent that it is the dark talon I do not think they will care I skipped putting a cathedral on a plane. Plus all I ever get are friendly games anymore. The last tourney I was in was probably 4 years ago sadly.

Had two games at the FLGS as preparation for an upcoming tourney. I took two Detacments:

Battalion: Azrael, Sammael, Librarian, 4 Scout Squads (one Sniper Sqd), 1 Ravenwing Biker Squad with 5 bikes and two Plasmaguns, a Chapter Ancient and a Apothecary.
Spearhead: Primaris Lieutenant, Full Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators, Full Hellblaster Squad with Heavy Plasma Incinerators, Devastator Squad (2 x Las, 2 x Missile).

Game 1 vs Necrons. We played Tactical Objectives on a city board. This was my first match against Necrons. He had two big Warrior squads, a hover-thing that looked like an Ark, two Destroyer Squads (floaty Lascannons), a big squad with Tesla(?), a squad with some heavy weapons and a squad of Wraiths. I placed a central core of Hellblasters with Azrael and the supporting characters with the Scouts spread out to buy space and be able to grab an objective or two if the chance arose.

He won the roll to go first and pounded at my Hellblasters while his Warriors went after my Scouts. It looked grim for a bit, but the Hellblasters did their thing and pulverised Wraiths, the flying tank, the Destroyers and plenty of other Necrons. The Ravenwing did well, using Speed of the Raven and Sammael to do some damage and get objectives. The Sniper Scouts rolled several 6s and while they didn't kill his characters, they did scare them! By the end of the third turn he was pretty much down to his three Characters hiding in a building. I had both Hellblaster Squads (the Heavies were down to 2 models) and the Devastators plus two remnant Scout squads and a remnant Ravenwing Squad. Sammael had torn through a squad but ended up alone in front of six of those floaty Lascannons...Oops.

Once I figured out target priorities the shooting duel turned in my favour. The Heavy Plasma Incinerators were a bit awkward in this match, but still effective. The normal Hellblasters deleted expensive things each turn with WFTDA while the Heavies sniped stuff. I had four CPs left at the end (Azrael rolled well) and I forgot to use Only in Death Does Duty End when Sammael died in the centre of their line. The Librarian rolled Super Smite twice and used Aversion to annoy one of the Floaty-Lascannon squads all game.

Game 2 vs Grey Knights. He had a Dreadnought character, a Master, three Forge World GK Dreads, two Razorbacks, a Stormraven and four Squads of Grey Knights. We played Kill Points and he won the roll-off for first turn. The highlight and lowlight was his Stormraven swooping in and buffed by a Psychic power proceeding to wipe out the Plasma Incinerator Hellblaster Squad. Six of the dying troops though, knocked the Stormraven down. Good job Chapter Ancient. The Heavy Plasma Incinerators knocked his Dreadnought Master down to three wounds, and a Scout Squad with a Heavy Bolter used the Hellfire Stratagem to finish him off. I ended up tabling him, but I was looking pretty ragged by the end. The Apothecary did well in this game, adding a Heavy Plasma Incinerator guy each round. The Heavy Plasma Incinerators were nasty against the Dreads while the Devastators took down Razorbacks. The Ravenwing and Sammael were also effective as a small, mobile strike force to complement my shooters.

I am pretty happy with the list, although I think I should have built the second Hellblaster Squad with standard Incinerators. Still, had I faced T8 tanks the Heavy guys might have been well worth it. The Chapter Ancient is staying, but I am still chewing on the Apothecary. He is a nice insurance policy, and he was certainly effective but he is not a miracle worker and takes a drop. I put the Ravenwing element in for a lark and I have to say that I was impressed. I have another week to submit my list, but I am travelling so these were my last test games. I could triple down on Hellblasters and buy another box and build them as normal Incinerator dudes and swap out the Devastators for a five-man Heavy Incinerator Squad.

I love hearing blow-by-blow reports like that. What was the outcome of the first match? It's interesting to hear an account of Hellblasters with the heavy incinerators.

On that note, I've been kicking around a more gunline-ish list than I usually run. It pains me to give up Deathwing, but I'm giving it a try. Here's what I'm thinking so far:

Battalion
Azrael - 180
Sammael on Sableclaw - 216
Lieutenant - power sword - 64
3x5 Scouts - 165
20 Hellblasters - incinerators - 660
Company Ancient - heavenfall blade - 67

Air Wing Detachment
Dark Talon x4 - 640

Lots of shooty fun! I'm not entirely sold on the double Hellblasters, but it's nice to create some target priority issues with them since you can just use WFTDA on whichever unit has more dudes left. I've never used an Ancient, and I'm optimistic that it's going to make a difference with 20 guys who like to fry themselves 1/36 times. I may give it a go to see how it works!

edit: I may switch out one of the Hellblaster units and the Ancient for a Dark Talon, a Darkshroud, and a unit of Scouts.

The game against Necrons was won on Objective points, and I was also in a position to table him. The Hellblasters are not just a gun-line. With Azrael along they marched forwards to take a central objective that a I drew. Having said that, I was looking pretty tattered! High-rate of fire shots will wear them down.

I think that the Rapid-Firing Plasma Incinerators are the way to go. With Azrael along I Supercharged with Rapid Fire with a sense of confidence (how I deleted the Wraiths). They also took down a Stormraven out of spite in death (2+ to hit with the Chapter Ancient). I think I'll keep the second squad with the Heavies, though, as they do deal with T8 stuff (and T4 for that matter) a little better.

I do not like facing -1 to hit things with my list. I also lack a Darkshroud, and will not be able to get one before the tournament.

Your list with four Dark Talons looks solid. That's a lot of Dakka!

Dark Angels were the highest placing <Imperial> army at Caledonian Uprising 2018 (4th place).

It was 8 Dark Talons, Darkshroud, Sammael, Talonmaster and 3 AM Infantry Squads.

That sounds like a real bitch to play against. I like it! I'm surprised it didn't struggle more, though. That list obviously devastates horde armies, but I can't see it being able to generate enough damage against tough targets. The 10 Plagueburst Crawler list that seems to be making rounds comes to mind.

I would think that the "Boots on the Ground" thing would make a list like that a non-starter these days. Of course having to shoot at a bunch of -1 to hit flyers before you can shoot the characters would be a royal pain.

Hey guys,

New around here and picking up my Dark Angels after a ~10 year break.

Our FLGS is running a casual tournament 750pts first, then to 1000pts, then 1250pts.

My Ravenwing list is:
Sammael in Sableclaw
6 Black Knights
3 RW Bikers (2 meltas, sarge with power sword)
Darkshroud with HB

Just played one game so far (my second 40k game) and got a win against a newish space wolf player. He was running 5 Wulfen and Rune Priest riding in a Stormfang Gunship, 5 Sky Claws (? Jump pack assault marines) and 3 cyber wolves.

It was the ancient relic mission and a real bloodbath of a game (Wulfen wiped the entire Black Knight squad in turn one!). Ended turn 4 as I killed all his ground units with only the Gunship left on 2 wounds unable to claim the objective. I was left with Darkshroud and two bikers.

I'm loving the speed of the Ravenwing and they seem fairly resilient to ranged attack with T5, the 4+ invuln, and -1 to hit. Sammael is super fun - I assaulted his Gunship, finished off the wulfen, fell back from combat to blast 4 of the Sky Claws - he has so many options and re-rollable 2+ to hit feels wrong!

A couple of questions:

- Do you guys constantly advance your RW to get the Jink save? I feel like I didn't want run away from the objective and wanted to make use of my fire power. But that 4+ was useful so many times.

- Tips to expand the force to 1000 and 1250? I've got a box of 10 Hellblasters. Them plus Azrael? but don't want to get too cheesy with Sammy and Azrael in 1250pts haha. But an advancing tough gunline could work to back up the initial RW assault.

Max

Whether you advance RW depends on what guns they will get shot with. Anything AP -1 or less and jink won't do any good. Also if you plan on charging and don't want to use or can't use the Speed strategem is the other factor. Keep in mind that when you advance you don't have to use all of the movement. You can declare advance and only move a fraction of an inch.

DA hellblasters are great. They don't need a master to reroll unless you are moving and can take down most any target.

Having said that you may want to consider a devoted antitank unit like devastators or a dread. Both benefit from stationary rerolls unlike predators. Your melta bikes may not be enough.

Scouts will help screen off alpha strike shenanegans and you should be able to get two squads plus anything else since they are relatively cheap.

Azrael is great but only if you have a couple high value squads for him to protect. He won't keep up with your RW.

Alternatively you can go full RW and put in the talonmaster or dark talon. Both will benefit from sammy and talonmaster will reciprocate. Both units provide some anti horde that you are currently lacking.

Wow I didn't even think advance works like that. Is that way of doing it specified in the rules/faq anywhere? Not doubting you, I just would assume your model has to at least move further than your max. move distance to count as advancing.

Thanks for the list tips. I've got a dread so I'll give that a shot with the hellblasters - I can only edge highlight so much black! Also got some sniper scouts, though a couple unit of bolter scouts would be an easy addition.

From core rules advance: roll a dice and add the result to their move characteristic.

From core rules moving: a model can be moved in any direction to a distance less than or equal to their move characteristic.

Since advancing only changes the characteristic and you are allowed to move less than your characteristic you can therefore declare advance and move less than 1 inch.

Sadly, I've verified this. They don't specify that you need to use your full advance unless you have a minimum move stat, which is present on the aerospace fighters

If it makes you feel better you can move your unit in a big circle so it ends up a fraction of an inch from where it started (unless its a supersonic flyer of course).

Yes that makes sense. Good to know.

Looks like my darkshroud will never fire its HB again! Thanks

I'm looking at Cypher/Fallen and trying to figure out how I would make them work. I like that they're a slightly cheaper version of Company Veterans and that Cypher has a decent amount of short range dakka to go with, but I'm not sure how to make them fit in a way that makes sense.

Anyone have any experience/luck with them?

Brandon Grant's LVO list

Jonathan Kohatsu's LVO list

James Konrad's LVO Brigade

Kerry Iwashita's LVO list. Lots of Primaris.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Jonathan Kohatsu's LVO list

I'm confused at taking the regular Space Marine Captain on Jump Pack. It seems to me he is listed as generic Space Marines. Inceptors are under Dark Angels. I assume the Captain is NOT allowed to re-roll the misses of Inceptors since the ability is listed as Chapter. They aren't in the same Chapter correct?>

I'm assuming that's why he is taking Captain and Librarian with Jump Pack to drop in with the Inceptors but maybe not...

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Jonathan Kohatsu's LVO list

I'm confused at taking the regular Space Marine Captain on Jump Pack. It seems to me he is listed as generic Space Marines. Inceptors are under Dark Angels. I assume the Captain is NOT allowed to re-roll the misses of Inceptors since the ability is listed as Chapter. They aren't in the same Chapter correct?>

I'm assuming that's why he is taking Captain and Librarian with Jump Pack to drop in with the Inceptors but maybe not...

I expect it's actually a Master, which is the exact same thing as a Captain. Some players still call it a Captain.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Jonathan Kohatsu's LVO list

I'm confused at taking the regular Space Marine Captain on Jump Pack. It seems to me he is listed as generic Space Marines. Inceptors are under Dark Angels. I assume the Captain is NOT allowed to re-roll the misses of Inceptors since the ability is listed as Chapter. They aren't in the same Chapter correct?>

I'm assuming that's why he is taking Captain and Librarian with Jump Pack to drop in with the Inceptors but maybe not...

I expect it's actually a Master, which is the exact same thing as a Captain. Some players still call it a Captain.

Okay maybe it's just a BattlesScribe thing. Then he should choose Dark Angels Battalion for his Captain, Librarian, and 3 Scouts.

The reason I suspect he wants regular Marines is to get access to other stratagems as well as regular Marines psychic phase for access to Nullzone and Psychic Fortress perhaps. This would mean having the battalion be regular marines.

If he wants to re-roll the Inceptors with Captain, then they need to be Dark Angels.

I do love that list though since he has 2 units of Plasma love.

Shaun Sharp's LVO list. Shaun won his first three games.

Aaron Wisch also won his first 3 games at LVO.

Thanks for sharing these. I hate that the two undefeated lists are DA/IG hybrids...