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Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Pacific wrote:
An interesting question might be at this point, why did the excellent design of Russian & US/UK vehicles not translate into automotive design quality after the war?

Sorry that's a bit of a trolling thing to mention but you know what I'm saying!


I'm not sure what the trolling you're getting at is, but to answer the question, I think it comes down to capitalism being very good at turning R&D in to all kinds of commercial applications. Communism is terrible at doing so. The US contracted private companies to produce tanks and airplanes, and after the war those companies kept the R&D from the process and applied it to improving their trucks, tractors, planes etc. Even tech that was developed entirely by govt filtered out as govt workers shifted to the private sector. Tech improvements even found new uses, everyone saw the direct uses of RADAR but it took capitalists to realise how useful RADAR could be countless other applications, up to the final, perfect human tech of reheating pizza with a microwave.

In the Soviet system tech improvements don't filter out in the same. By the late 80s their pizza reheating was decades behind. Collapse was inevitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 amanita wrote:
An interesting comparison between the Sherman and the Panther tanks is one of doctrinal use: the Sherman was designed from the outset as an all-purpose war machine and force multiplier, while the Panther was primarily a tank hunter, designed in response to the rising tide of good Russian tanks. One-on-one combats were exceptionally rare yet are all too often used to judge the performance of individual machines.


That's a really good way of summing up the issue.

Just to add to that, there were other turreted designs designed as tank hunters. The Hellcat, for instance, had a stupidly good kill loss ratio, but this actually misrepresents its overall effectiveness - as a very specialist design it largely went unused while generalist designs like the Sherman did the grunt work.

The Panther wasn't as specialist as the Hellcat, but it was, as you say, designed primarily as a tank hunter. It was good in its role, but its role was only a small portion of the stuff a tank should be effective in - most of the time a tank should be aiding in breakthrough against infantry positions, and then potentially exploiting the gap and wrecking the enemy lines of supply and communications. And even in that role, as the war went on and the allies put higher velocity guns on their medium designs, the Panther didn't even hold much of an advantage in tank duals, certainly not enough of an advantage to justify the greater weight and complexity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
Yeah Chieftain is awesome. He's pretty disdainful of the Panther. It's fun watching him get around early war French tanks and the Matilda 2.


Chieftain is good, but the best thing he's contributed to the world is the sight of watching a dude that tall trying to get in and out of WW2 tanks.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/19 07:32:51


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

In the Soviet system tech improvements don't filter out in the same. By the late 80s their pizza reheating was decades behind. Collapse was inevitable.


This may be my favorite sentence in this thread XD

Just to add to that, there were other turreted designs designed as tank hunters. The Hellcat, for instance, had a stupidly good kill loss ratio, but this actually misrepresents its overall effectiveness - as a very specialist design it largely went unused while generalist designs like the Sherman did the grunt work.


To expand on this, American Tank Destroyer Doctrine was a rigid thing. TD Battalions were distributed throughout the army to establish a defense in depth against the kind of operation that crushed France. The idea was you disperse your tank destroyers, then once the line is broken you gather them up somewhere and crush the invading tanks.

The issue is that throughout the entire war the US Army never actually encountered this scenario. Before the Battle of the Bulge there was only a brief and ineffective (if costly to repel) break at Kassarine Pass and then at the Bulge the Germany military ground to a halt for a myriad of reasons none of them primarily related to a massed counter attack by tank destroyers. The army had an entire doctrine and branch dedicated to stopping something that never happened. As a result TD battalions ended up doing all kinds of things not related to tank destroying like serving as assault guns, artillery, recon, and fire support roles. A big part of the Hell Cat's great kill loss ratio is that it was never sent to do what it was built to do and became a massive opportunist that got to enjoy the benefits of sitting in the second line with a really mean gun and insane speed.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

However those formations were used for artillery support and direct fire(aka just like tanks). That was a problem.

Ironically crews survived better because the open top allowed them to bail easily.

Also ironically they ran out of M10 hulls relatively early and shifted to M4 hulls in later 1944, making them not much different actually. Really blending the issue.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block







 LordofHats wrote:
In the Soviet system tech improvements don't filter out in the same. By the late 80s their pizza reheating was decades behind. Collapse was inevitable.


This may be my favorite sentence in this thread XD

Just to add to that, there were other turreted designs designed as tank hunters. The Hellcat, for instance, had a stupidly good kill loss ratio, but this actually misrepresents its overall effectiveness - as a very specialist design it largely went unused while generalist designs like the Sherman did the grunt work.


To expand on this, American Tank Destroyer Doctrine was a rigid thing. TD Battalions were distributed throughout the army to establish a defense in depth against the kind of operation that crushed France. The idea was you disperse your tank destroyers, then once the line is broken you gather them up somewhere and crush the invading tanks.

The issue is that throughout the entire war the US Army never actually encountered this scenario. Before the Battle of the Bulge there was only a brief and ineffective (if costly to repel) break at Kassarine Pass and then at the Bulge the Germany military ground to a halt for a myriad of reasons none of them primarily related to a massed counter attack by tank destroyers. The army had an entire doctrine and branch dedicated to stopping something that never happened. As a result TD battalions ended up doing all kinds of things not related to tank destroying like serving as assault guns, artillery, recon, and fire support roles. A big part of the Hell Cat's great kill loss ratio is that it was never sent to do what it was built to do and became a massive opportunist that got to enjoy the benefits of sitting in the second line with a really mean gun and insane speed.


Just like the Galactic Partridges. "Haters shall hate!"

Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States



Did someone say TANKS? I got here as fast as I could.
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing



Went to Bovington this week specifically to see the Elephant on loan from the US. Once in a lifetime opportunity, I doubt I’ll be shooting over to the US to see it again.

Massive vehicle, it’s sheer size can’t be appreciated until you stand next to it and don’t even reach the main deck. The frontal armour on the upper section is as thick as the span of your hand.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Togusa wrote:


Did someone say TANKS? I got here as fast as I could.


The A-10 is most definitely a tank. It's just one that happens to fly.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Howard A Treesong wrote:


Went to Bovington this week specifically to see the Elephant on loan from the US. Once in a lifetime opportunity, I doubt I’ll be shooting over to the US to see it again.

Massive vehicle, it’s sheer size can’t be appreciated until you stand next to it and don’t even reach the main deck. The frontal armour on the upper section is as thick as the span of your hand.


I love the Elephant too. The were poorly chosen for their role at Kursk tho.

That looks like one I saw restored in a TV show years ago.

   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Indeed. You can only truly appreciate these vehicles when standing next to them.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

T-34.

I had the pleasure to see one up and running last year. It was made all the more interesting when I learned that it had been gifted to Canada by Joseph Stalin. The thing ran beautifully and was the second oldest tank that day.

I also learned how comically ramshackle these tanks were. A wedge of metal was welded on the side to nudge the loose tread pins back in place and, apparently, the plates were so ill-fitting that a Molotov could take it out by leaking through the poor seams. (not sure how true that is).

Sherman Grizzly takes second place for being one of the few Canadian manufactured tanks I know of.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
 
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