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BBAP, you yourself say that AoF are far too strong to give to an entire army right now. So, if the buff(s) from an AoF are made not as strong, you can give them to more units without breaking anything.

The rules don't have to suck, they just have to be less powerful. Less powerful than an entire free phase does NOT equal sucking.

 JNAProductions wrote:
BBAP, you yourself say that AoF are far too strong to give to an entire army right now. So, if the buff(s) from an AoF are made not as strong, you can give them to more units without breaking anything.

So essentially you want to change a perfectly good faction trait in order to be able to justify using it more often. That seems senseless to me. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

 BBAP wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
BBAP, you yourself say that AoF are far too strong to give to an entire army right now. So, if the buff(s) from an AoF are made not as strong, you can give them to more units without breaking anything.

So essentially you want to change a perfectly good faction trait in order to be able to justify using it more often. That seems senseless to me. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

A good faction trait should be usable by the entire faction.

This is not a good faction trait-it's POWERFUL, but powerful=/=good.

Part of the reason this debate has ground on for so long is the vagueness of the terms we're using. "Good" and "powerful" can mean different things to different people. In an attempt to focus it a bit I'm going to try and be a bit more precise in my responses from here on out.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A good faction trait should be usable by the entire faction.

Says who?

In 7th, nearly every unit in the Genestealer Cults army could Return to the Shadows. They could do this more or less at will, with a few restrictions - this is an example of a trait that affected the entire army. It was also a very silly idea. The ability to remove squads from the table, have them restore dead models (via the Decurion bonuses) and then arrive back in play on the very next turn more or less wherever I wanted them gave GSC a mobility and resilience that obviated the army's balancing weaknesses (footslogging T3 5+), made it far too easy to disrupt an opponent's game, and to score cheap VPs without giving my opponent a chance to stop me.

I've recently learned that RttS is back, in Strategem form. It does the same thing it always did (i.e it hasn't become "weaker" or "less powerful") except now it costs a Command Point to use it, which denies me the ability to use it as a crutch in the way I was doing in 7th.

tl;dr - Abilities which affect the entire army are not "good" solely by dint of their doing so, and in fact it can be a bad idea to have abilities affect an entire army if they grant the army too much capability with too little cost.

This is not a good faction trait-it's POWERFUL, but powerful=/=good.

AoFs allow you to advance time. They give whatever squad uses them the opportunity to degrade your opponent's army or cover table-space that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do until your next turn. They also allow you to rez a model but nobody really cares about that - it's all about the increased ability to effect the game your squads gain with AoFs. That's both powerful, since it takes some of your opponent's initiative away from them by dragging game events from next turn into the current one, and is also good, because this ability is conducive to winning games (provided you use it correctly).

To remove this ability and replace it with something less "powerful" simply for the sake of allowing it to be used more often seems like wanton vandalism to me. Quite apart from the fact you can actually build a Sisters army to maximise your chances of scoring bonus AoFs, I'm just baffled as to why people want to do this or think it's a good idea. To me this whole shenanigan feels like the "CC units please" complaints all over again. You have this perfectly serviceable army which has a solid toolset with some glaring omissions, yet instead of asking GW to fix the flaws people are asking for the faction to be revamped so it conforms to their desires.

So are you just incapable of listening to other people? Clearly, GW is perfect and they made the perfect sisters army, and because you think so and are always right, it must be so.

phydaux wrote:
This is AWESOME. The last several pages has been a rational back and forth discussion over how the new codex can best correct the most glaring deficiency in the current Sisters rules set - The Inverse Ninja AoF system.

So..... Boob plate?

Poot.

BBAP is really magical.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So are you just incapable of listening to other people?

Did you type this with a straight face? I ask because you misrepresent what I'm saying in the very next sentence, so you're either being ironic or you have a critical lack of self-awareness.

Clearly, GW is perfect and they made the perfect sisters army, and because you think so and are always right, it must be so.

I can't let this stand, given it's a complete misrepresentation of everything I've been saying in this thread thus far and for years beforehand.

To reiterate:The Sisters have flaws. In fact they have the same flaws now as they did in the Witch Hunters book - they lack reliable long-range high-power shooting, and they lack mobility that doesn't require vehicles. The army has a lot of functional aspects alongside these flaws, and I've always liked the challenge inherent in an army that demands you aggressively close with an opponent without allowing them to charge you - but their flaws mean there are hard counters and hence Sisters aren't perfect.

In 8+ years of bitching about Sisters with other Sisters players not one of them has explained to me how you fix these flaws by fething about with the stuff that actually works. The flaws were what they are now in 5th Edition, and people wanted CC units and Celestian Terminators. Now they've revamped AoF so they're awesome, and people want to feth about with them so they get to do more stuff in a turn.

Stop asking for upgrades to stuff that works and start asking GW to fix the gak that needs fixing. Or learn to love Guard allies.

 BBAP wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So are you just incapable of listening to other people?

Did you type this with a straight face? I ask because you misrepresent what I'm saying in the very next sentence, so you're either being ironic or you have a critical lack of self-awareness.

Sorry but I agree 100% with him and I find the “critical lack of self-awareness” coming from pretty funny .

To drag this conversation in a direction other than "AOF", I'll follow up on my earlier post.

 alextroy wrote:
What does this tell us? If GW sees SOB as a major release, we can expect :

4+ Clampack Character models just like Primaries, Death Guard, and Kharadron Overlords, the three larges releases

3 Multipart Unit Kits that may be for multi-units or may include character upgrade bits

2-3 Vehicle Kits

Let's talk Multipart Kits. I think it i highly likely we will get a Troops Kit (duh), an Elites Kit, and at least a 3rd Infantry Kit.

The Troops Kit is a no-brainer. Need to put out a Battle Sisters Kit to form the core of the army. Depending upon how many models and how much wargear they cram into the kit, this can easily cover Battle Sisters Squad, Dominion Squad, and Retributor Squads. It might be snug, but if the Tactical Marine box can fit 10 models with 10 bolters, 4 special weapons, a heavy weapon, 3 melee weapons, 3 pistols, and a multi-option Combi-Weapon, we stand a chance of fitting the Holy Trinity as both Special and Heavy weapons along with sergeant weapons in a a 10 Sister box. Squeeze in a few extra specials and we are a go for all three squads.

It think there will be an Elite Unit Kit. Everybody is getting them lately: Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes. This means a Celestians box, Sisters in more ornate or accessorized armor. Probably a 5 model kit, possibly with options to make a character or two, which seems to be a thing lately. A few bits will allow an Imagifier to be made with the kit and if they go crazy they could include a cloak for a Cannoness model or a new Palatine (aka Sisters Lt.). Never know with GW.

The third kit becomes a toss up between Seraphim and Repentia, unless GW goes all out and give a 4th Unit Kit for sisters to get both out. I've seen many suggest that Celestians and Seraphim could be in the same box, but I don't see that happening. Flying models and walkers don't make good combo kits, especially if they make new Seraphim match the Geminae Superia. More likely they will add more options to the Seraphim to encourage players to purchase the box to add to their collection. I'll buy one just to get my hands on some real Inferno Pistol Seraphim.

I really don't have a clue what they will do about Repentia. Might not be a look they want to keep in the Sister of Battle Army. It's one thing when you have an army of half naked elfin ladies in Age of Sigmar, but BDSM nuns in 40K might not be appropriate for this day and age.

 BBAP wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So are you just incapable of listening to other people?

Did you type this with a straight face? I ask because you misrepresent what I'm saying in the very next sentence, so you're either being ironic or you have a critical lack of self-awareness.

Clearly, GW is perfect and they made the perfect sisters army, and because you think so and are always right, it must be so.

I can't let this stand, given it's a complete misrepresentation of everything I've been saying in this thread thus far and for years beforehand.

To reiterate:The Sisters have flaws. In fact they have the same flaws now as they did in the Witch Hunters book - they lack reliable long-range high-power shooting, and they lack mobility that doesn't require vehicles. The army has a lot of functional aspects alongside these flaws, and I've always liked the challenge inherent in an army that demands you aggressively close with an opponent without allowing them to charge you - but their flaws mean there are hard counters and hence Sisters aren't perfect.

In 8+ years of bitching about Sisters with other Sisters players not one of them has explained to me how you fix these flaws by fething about with the stuff that actually works. The flaws were what they are now in 5th Edition, and people wanted CC units and Celestian Terminators. Now they've revamped AoF so they're awesome, and people want to feth about with them so they get to do more stuff in a turn.

Stop asking for upgrades to stuff that works and start asking GW to fix the gak that needs fixing. Or learn to love Guard allies.

You're the one asking for upgrades to stuff that works and trying to keep GW from stuff that needs fixing.

We are asking to fix stuff that needs fixing. The AoF system is more limited than it needs to be and has entire subsections of it(imagifiers) that are useless garbage.

You are asking for long range firepower that is largely superflous to SoB. Get retributors and Exorcists up to snuff so we can reach out and touch things a little bit easier and that's all we'd need. We're a short-midrange 'shot-gun' style shooting army. Our goal should be getting up into the opponents face, and then melting it off.

You're trying to make a guard parking lot out of an army that isn't a guard parking lot. We're never going to be able to compete in the long range shooting game, we just won't. It doesn't make any sense from a fluff perspective, a solid dozen other armies play the same game only they have 5+ editions of model releases backing them up, and splitting the army's focus just makes it bad at both. It makes more sense to improve our mid-range and short-range shooting, and the tools we have to get there. Things that could all be done BY EXPANDING THE ACTS OF FAITH SYSTEM.

Also, yunno what would make us more mobile without vehicles? More acts of faith.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
To drag this conversation in a direction other than "AOF", I'll follow up on my earlier post.

 alextroy wrote:
What does this tell us? If GW sees SOB as a major release, we can expect :

4+ Clampack Character models just like Primaries, Death Guard, and Kharadron Overlords, the three larges releases

3 Multipart Unit Kits that may be for multi-units or may include character upgrade bits

2-3 Vehicle Kits

Let's talk Multipart Kits. I think it i highly likely we will get a Troops Kit (duh), an Elites Kit, and at least a 3rd Infantry Kit.

The Troops Kit is a no-brainer. Need to put out a Battle Sisters Kit to form the core of the army. Depending upon how many models and how much wargear they cram into the kit, this can easily cover Battle Sisters Squad, Dominion Squad, and Retributor Squads. It might be snug, but if the Tactical Marine box can fit 10 models with 10 bolters, 4 special weapons, a heavy weapon, 3 melee weapons, 3 pistols, and a multi-option Combi-Weapon, we stand a chance of fitting the Holy Trinity as both Special and Heavy weapons along with sergeant weapons in a a 10 Sister box. Squeeze in a few extra specials and we are a go for all three squads.

It think there will be an Elite Unit Kit. Everybody is getting them lately: Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes. This means a Celestians box, Sisters in more ornate or accessorized armor. Probably a 5 model kit, possibly with options to make a character or two, which seems to be a thing lately. A few bits will allow an Imagifier to be made with the kit and if they go crazy they could include a cloak for a Cannoness model or a new Palatine (aka Sisters Lt.). Never know with GW.

The third kit becomes a toss up between Seraphim and Repentia, unless GW goes all out and give a 4th Unit Kit for sisters to get both out. I've seen many suggest that Celestians and Seraphim could be in the same box, but I don't see that happening. Flying models and walkers don't make good combo kits, especially if they make new Seraphim match the Geminae Superia. More likely they will add more options to the Seraphim to encourage players to purchase the box to add to their collection. I'll buy one just to get my hands on some real Inferno Pistol Seraphim.

I really don't have a clue what they will do about Repentia. Might not be a look they want to keep in the Sister of Battle Army. It's one thing when you have an army of half naked elfin ladies in Age of Sigmar, but BDSM nuns in 40K might not be appropriate for this day and age.

Personally I think every single current power armor foot-infantry unit will come out of the Battle Sister kit. Expect it to be about the same price as the intercessor box, but hopefully with 10 models. The Seraphim kit will have some sort of dual kit option. Making a character out of a 5 model kit doesn't make any sense for us, it worked for custodes because 1 custode costs more than an entire unit of battle sisters. So I don't think they'll go down that route.

Then I think the repentia kit will have some sort of secondary build option(and will have a mistress of repentence). Then an elite kit with dual build options. Could be FA like bikes, could be 'sister centurions' could be something totally off the wall.

They'll rebox the Exorcist/Immolator with a plastic turret sprue(and some additional options that make it a juicy kit again)

For Clampacks I would say they'll likely ditch the dialogus so it'll be a canoness, an imagifier, a hospitaller, and a new HQ choice. At least one of these will have some kind of dual build option. They may also make Veridian a named character again.

For the vehicle kits I would expect a Flyer, a Heavy(land-raider+) vehicle and a light vehicle. All with either multiple build options or tons of weapon options.

And I'm gonna throw out their that they'll likely do a big centerpiece of some type. Could be a Sisters specific terrain piece or fortification that synergizes with the army (both nurgle and the new idoneth deepkin have something similar) could be a Sisters super-heavy, could be a giant angel monster.

Basically, I think they're going to be cramming options into these boxes and I would be a bit surprised if ANYTHING didn't have multiple units it could be.

Deathwatch have a combi-HeavyFlamer/Bolter that is just crying out to be given to Sisters. I would like to see an infantry unit with shields as well.

After that Bikes would be cool as would access to Drop pods. The Corvus Blackstar also seems like a good fit.

How about strap on exo suits that go on top of Armour for a heavier unit Dreadknight/ Centurion style.

ERJAK wrote:
They'll rebox the Exorcist/Immolator with a plastic turret sprue(and some additional options that make it a juicy kit again)

Immolator is already plastic - though there was something about the clear plastic section mentioned earlier in the thread. I'd like to think plastic Exorcist is a given - hopefully keeping the pipe organ look, for my money.

ERJAK wrote:
They may also make Veridian a named character again.

You say again - has she ever actually been a playable named character? I didn't think so.

 Dysartes wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
They'll rebox the Exorcist/Immolator with a plastic turret sprue(and some additional options that make it a juicy kit again)

Immolator is already plastic - though there was something about the clear plastic section mentioned earlier in the thread. I'd like to think plastic Exorcist is a given - hopefully keeping the pipe organ look, for my money.

ERJAK wrote:
They may also make Veridian a named character again.

You say again - has she ever actually been a playable named character? I didn't think so.

She had specfic rules in 7th when she came out.

For about a day and a half before 8th dropped. Gave every unit in her aura range precise shots. Was pretty cool, even if she died to a stiff breeze.

 alextroy wrote:
To drag this conversation in a direction other than "AOF", I'll follow up on my earlier post.

To copy a post of mine from another thread over:

To get some context, I looked at Death Guard as a recent major faction update. In terms of sprues, the have the following:

- 8 Infantry Sprues
- 5 Vehicle Sprues
- 6 Characters
- Additional sprues for the Dark Imperium starter set and Easy to Build versions of the above

Setting that as my limit, I would propose the following for how I would do plastic Sisters:

- 5-strong Sisters sprue with Bolters and option for Sister Superior
- 5-strong Sisters sprue with Bolters and option for Imagifier
- Special and heavy weapons sprue with assorted bling
- 5-strong Repentia sprue
- 2 sprues for a 5-strong Seraphim squad
- 2 sprues for a 5-strong kit to make Celestians with options for ‘Command Squad’ Characters - Dialogus, Hospitaller etc

- Combined plastic sprue for Immolator/Exorcist upgrade from a Rhino
- Plastic sprue to turn a Rhino into another tank - my suggestion would be along the lines of a Vindicator with Melta/Flamer/Bolter weaponry
- 2 sprues for a plastic Penitent Engine
- Half sprue of ‘Sisters vehicle bits’ similar to the Black Templars and Deathwatch vehicle sprues - Rhino doors/hatches/icons etc

- Cannoness
- Palatine
- Cannonness with Jump Pack
- Mistress Repentia
- Named character

Plus Celestine. That totals up to 8 infantry sprues, 5 vehicle sprues and 5 characters - a touch under the Death Guard release. The first three sprues could be mixed and matched - one of each would yield a Battle Sister Squad, one of the first and two of the third would give a Dominion/Retributor squad, the third could be included in the Celestian Squad.

Now, in the Death a Guard list I left out Mortarion, and large, centrepiece models are all the rage at the moment. So I think there are two ways to use that opportunity:

- the Rolling Cathedral idea; this could piggyback off the Baneblade chassis (like the ForgeWorld Fellblade does) to save on the number of new sprues to be designed
- a walking cathedral, like a supersized cross between Inquisitor Karamazov’s Throne of Judgement and a Penitent Engine the size of a Daemon Primarch (similar in high level concept to Raging Heroes’ Sisters War Pulpit - which is worth a google if you haven’t seen it)

I think what I’ve listed above, plus a Codex with the special editions, datacards and dice would give a release of a similar size or a little smaller than the Death Guard, which isn’t beyond the realm of plausibility.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sorry but I agree 100% with him

Don't apologise for believing something, it smacks of low self esteem.

ERJAK wrote:
You're the one asking for upgrades to stuff that works and trying to keep GW from stuff that needs fixing.

Sisters have no S8 weapons that can fire beyond 24" aside from Exorcists, which fire D6 shots. Exorcists are awesome, and can now be taken in greater numbers than ever before, but they're too expensive on their own to constitute a firebase.

Sisters have a single unit that can move more than 6" natively without the use of a vehicle. That's an issue, right?

We are asking to fix stuff that needs fixing. The AoF system is more limited than it needs to be and has entire subsections of it(imagifiers) that are useless garbage.

The AoF system is exactly as limited as it needs to be, because getting huge numbers of extra actions every turn allows you to affect the game far too much to be fair. Also, units aren't "useless garbage" just because they don't function as you'd like them to.

You want the AoF system to conform to your desires. It doesn't need to. It works fine as it is.

You are asking for long range firepower that is largely superflous to SoB

When I ask for it, it's superfluous...

Get retributors and Exorcists up to snuff so we can reach out and touch things a little bit easier and that's all we'd need.

... but when you ask for it, it's fine! You understand this is exactly the kind of change I'm asking for, right? The reason I'm asking for it is because...

We're a short-midrange 'shot-gun' style shooting army. Our goal should be getting up into the opponents face, and then melting it off.

... which I've been saying the whole time. The problem with being a mid-range shotgun army whose mobility is primarily vehicle-based is that armies which can shoot your vehicles out from under you can dance away from your melting attempts, and since Seraphim are the only unit in the army that can move 12" a turn and act, being de-transported is a serious flaw. That's why Sisters need both long-range firepower *and* mobility that isn't based on vehicles.

Imagifers suggest a solution for the latter, but nobody will bother with them because they're "useless garbage".

You're trying to make a guard parking lot out of an army that isn't a guard parking lot

No I'm not. Re-read my posts.

Also, yunno what would make us more mobile without vehicles? More acts of faith.

Yunno what unit gives you more Acts of Faith? Imagifers. Not just on a 4+, but also through the Strat in Chapter Approved - although the 4+ is fine for 40pts.

The AoF system is exactly as limited as it needs to be, because getting huge numbers of extra actions every turn allows you to affect the game far too much to be fair. Also, units aren't "useless garbage" just because they don't function as you'd like them to.

You want the AoF system to conform to your desires. It doesn't need to. It works fine as it is.

Just quoting the portion I want to address.

You're basically saying here that what YOU think is a good system is therefore objectively good. I and a good number of other people disagree with that, but you seem incapable of understanding that other people might hold other opinions than you and be correct with them.

 BBAP wrote:


The AoF system is exactly as limited as it needs to be, because getting huge numbers of extra actions every turn allows you to affect the game far too much to be fair.

Basically it seems that AoF are so powerful they have to be heavily limited, but it has some issues IMO scaling up with higher point values. It's very strong at low points (2-3 AoF reliably), but at higher values the number of AoF per turn varies wildly because it's mostly on 4+ rolls, and as noted previously, heavily dependent on positioning and really restricts certain kinds of builds - someone who wants a Seraphim army is out of luck.

That said, this is a solvable problem - Jump Pack Canonesses with AoF providing Relics would fix that. Expanded Relics, Warlord Traits and faction Traits might solve a lot of problems.

 JNAProductions wrote:

The AoF system is exactly as limited as it needs to be, because getting huge numbers of extra actions every turn allows you to affect the game far too much to be fair. Also, units aren't "useless garbage" just because they don't function as you'd like them to.

You want the AoF system to conform to your desires. It doesn't need to. It works fine as it is.

Just quoting the portion I want to address.

You're basically saying here that what YOU think is a good system is therefore objectively good. I and a good number of other people disagree with that, but you seem incapable of understanding that other people might hold other opinions than you and be correct with them.

Looking at BBAP's posts in the Sisters Tactics thread I think its safe to assume they haven't played Sisters that much. The apparent belief that one Imagifer per BSS is a great use of the AoF system so long as its used in a 750 point environment lets us know where they are coming from.

 JNAProductions wrote:

The AoF system is exactly as limited as it needs to be, because getting huge numbers of extra actions every turn allows you to affect the game far too much to be fair. Also, units aren't "useless garbage" just because they don't function as you'd like them to.

You want the AoF system to conform to your desires. It doesn't need to. It works fine as it is.

Just quoting the portion I want to address.

You're basically saying here that what YOU think is a good system is therefore objectively good

I said nothing about "good" - vague terms, remember?

I said it works fine - and it does. AoF as currently written provides your army a single extra action per turn on the roll of a 2+, and you can pay points to get the chance of more extra actions. You can run an army just fine on this. It's not broken, one way or the other. It's not particularly unique as faction traits go - Ynnari get something similar but can do it much more often and at much more inconvenient moments - but it's a serious boost to the army's capacity to affect the game and broadens the capabilities of your units. Bringing Imagifers to get extra shots at more free actions likewise expands your ability to affect a game, so it's worth doing that too.

A general statement of the opposing position is that the current AoF system does not work in the way a particular player would like it to, and thus instead of taking the time to learn and understand said system, they'd like it to be redesigned instead. That's asinine in the extreme. If you disagree that it's asinine, then tell me if there's ever been a game where you didn't bother to roll for your AoF every turn.

... yeah, I thought not. Now tell me why you never forget to use your AoF every turn. Because it sucks and needs to be redesigned, right?

... wait no

I and a good number of other people disagree with that, but you seem incapable of understanding that other people might hold other opinions than you and be correct with them.

The popularity of an opinion is irrelevant - give me a compelling reason that AoF should be redesigned and I'll drop my objections.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dracpanzer wrote:
Looking at BBAP's posts in the Sisters Tactics thread I think its safe to assume they haven't played Sisters that much.

Since 4th Edition, friend. This is only my second game in 8th, though.

The apparent belief that one Imagifer per BSS is a great use of the AoF system so long as its used in a 750 point environment lets us know where they are coming from.

I prefer the pronoun "it", if you don't mind.

As to the Imagifers thing - what can I say? I tried it out once and scored a pretty crushing win with it - but like I said in the other thread, the dude I was playing had an assault-centric Chaos soup army, so the game went about as well as games usually go for assault-centric armies versus Sisters. We deployed, his army rushed into boltering range, the inevitable occured (i.e. he got boltered to death). Major Victory on the ITC Scenario we were running (The Relic, if anyone cares - one of my Canonesses scooped it on turn 2 and AoFed her way into a corner with it), but it's not a game I can draw any real conclusions from because his army was poor, and had no option but to run at my bolters and die.

Again, like I said in the other thread, the build has some serious weaknesses - it's not fast enough to hit backfield units and against Monster-spam I can see it coming unstuck hard if a few of its D6 damage weapons whiff, but I think it has potential. I'd like to get a few more games in with it against some tougher match-ups before I pass judgement for reals though - I don't like dismissing army builds out of hand until I've tried them once or twice (unless they obviously suck, and this one doesn't).

PS: Thanks to the three Imagifers and Martyrdom I ended up using 9 AoFs in a 4-turn game (he conceded at the start of turn 5). That's double the number of free actions you get natively if you're stuffing your Sisters into boxes. May be my inexperience with Sisters talking here, but I find it hard to see how double AoFs equates to "useless garbage".

I can get 8 acts of faith in a 4 turn game with just Celestine and zero imagifiers.

Celestine actually does stuff too, and if she dies she's _Still_ good for another AOF.

If i might chip in only momentarily. Its been my observation that competitive mondsets will never ever be happy; they will always find something wro g with a system or an army or anything. Its like theyre not happy unless theyre complaining about something.
So i feel this argument about the AoF system wont really find a reaolution.

As a casual player, i find the current AoF system to be alright. I dont play sister net lists. I dont spam seraphim or dominions out the wazoo so i dont have a problem with imagifiers falling behind into uselessness. Ive found a 50/50 chance to do an undeniably powerful extra action to be alright. It is a lot better than a 0/100.
Would the ability to do more of these AoF be great? Yes. Would it run the chance of getting watered down if we could do more of them? Yes.

If i want more faith, i just throw in more of my nicely kitbashed imagifiers which look great in the army. We have a built in tax that removes an opponents whining privelidges in our AoF. It is unique to us. When all those imagifiers go off in a turn which has happened for me (5+ AoF in a turn) is tasty but crazy strong; its worth it. Or flip side nothing could happen. I find our army can hold its own reasonably well without using AoF as a crutch. Our opponents cant complain as were paying for a model that takes an elite slot and costs a fair amount for a chance of pulling off a powerful ability. Its not free. Its not assured. Its dare i say almost balanced.

This is just the view and opinion of a lowly casual player.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I can get 8 acts of faith in a 4 turn game with just Celestine and zero imagifiers.

Celestine actually does stuff too, and if she dies she's _Still_ good for another AOF.

She also costs 200 points - 250 if you bring her extra wounds along with her (which you'd need to do considering she's T3 so she'll be rolling a lot of saves). Just seems... inefficient to me, especially in smaller games. Maybe once the army gets big enough to allow for Seraphim, but otherwise... meh.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
If i might chip in only momentarily. Its been my observation that competitive mondsets will never ever be happy; they will always find something wro g with a system or an army or anything. Its like theyre not happy unless theyre complaining about something.

That's not a necessary feature of a competitive mindset, in my opinion. For instance, I see it all the time in work; lads will muck up a task and blame the tools ("Knives aren't sharp enough to pare the bones properly!"), blame the time of day ("We shouldn't be doing this more than 4 hours anyway!"), blame management, blame the weather... they'll complain about absolutely everything to avoid responsibility for working with the stuff they've been given, even if the stuff they've been given is perfectly functional.

It's the same thing here. AoF are perfectly functional and, moreover, they're great - but the system doesn't mesh with how some people want to play the army, and it's much easier to complain about something than it is to realign your desires to conform to reality. So, that's what they do.

Then I spend six pages arguing back and forth with them on Dakka because I am a masochist.

So i feel this argument about the AoF system wont really find a reaolution.

You';re right - the irrelevant forum arguments won't end until someone takes 7 Imagifers and 100 Sisters to a GT and wins with them. Thing is, GW successfully resisted the fan-spank demands to add pointless CC units to the Codex thus far, so the upshot of all the whining will be GW paying no heed and doing whatever they like, just as they always have done.

Will that stop everyone shouting at me because I don't agree with their snowflake redesign demands? lol no

This is just the view and opinion of a lowly casual player.

We're all casuals here. Your opinion is no less valid than anyone else's.

 BBAP wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I can get 8 acts of faith in a 4 turn game with just Celestine and zero imagifiers.

Celestine actually does stuff too, and if she dies she's _Still_ good for another AOF.

She also costs 200 points - 250 if you bring her extra wounds along with her (which you'd need to do considering she's T3 so she'll be rolling a lot of saves). Just seems... inefficient to me, especially in smaller games. Maybe once the army gets big enough to allow for Seraphim, but otherwise... meh..

She's also, like... A really good model. Her extra wounds come back to life, she can move 24 inches and then charge, is armed with a heavy flamer, has a 2+ sav, a reasonable Inv save, seven wounds of her own, Comes back to life and teleports often onto an objective miles away. [And this ona 2+! and can do up to 12 wounds in melee, [Up to 18 including her friends.]

It's not like I'm paying 200pts for an extra AoF, here. She pops up in competative tournament lists, [including my own] without even bringing any sisters, because she's _That Good_.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
She's also, like... A really good model.

She always has been - but for what she costs she'd better be really good. Old Celestine was a melee monster *and* cheap(ish) to boot; I still didn't take her much.

She pops up in competative tournament lists, [including my own] without even bringing any sisters, because she's _That Good_.

I dunno - I can maybe see a place for her as part of an allied detachment in a Guard army or something, kicking ass upfield with a unit of Seraphim (or three) backing her up while the AM do whatever it is AM do these days (Lascannon spam, right?), but she pushes a lot of bolters and bodies out of a Sisters army. Too many for my liking. I'm also a little wary because I've seen much tougher models killed by boltguns inside a turn - Miraculous Intervention makes this less of an issue for her, but still, it's gonna suck reeeeally hard if you roll that 1.

On-topic for a brief moment, I hope whoever did the new sculpt for Celestine and her Canonesses is doing the plastic Sisters next year, because they're wonderful looking models if nothing else.

 BBAP wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
She's also, like... A really good model.

She always has been - but for what she costs she'd better be really good. Old Celestine was a melee monster *and* cheap(ish) to boot; I still didn't take her much.

She pops up in competative tournament lists, [including my own] without even bringing any sisters, because she's _That Good_.

I dunno - I can maybe see a place for her as part of an allied detachment in a Guard army or something, kicking ass upfield with a unit of Seraphim (or three) backing her up while the AM do whatever it is AM do these days (Lascannon spam, right?), but she pushes a lot of bolters and bodies out of a Sisters army. Too many for my liking. I'm also a little wary because I've seen much tougher models killed by boltguns inside a turn - Miraculous Intervention makes this less of an issue for her, but still, it's gonna suck reeeeally hard if you roll that 1.

On-topic for a brief moment, I hope whoever did the new sculpt for Celestine and her Canonesses is doing the plastic Sisters next year, because they're wonderful looking models if nothing else.

Command Re-rolls were made for that sort of thing. Sure you'll double 1 once in 36 games, but that's an acceptable risk.
Did I mention character protection? Play it right and she'll never be a target for more than a fraction of their firepower, and 2+ saves are remarkably effective against boltgun fire.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
They may also make Veridian a named character again.

You say again - has she ever actually been a playable named character? I didn't think so.

She had specfic rules in 7th when she came out.

I must've missed them entirely - thanks for letting me know.

kombatwombat wrote:
- Combined plastic sprue for Immolator/Exorcist upgrade from a Rhino

OK, I'm going to ask the question - why do people keep thinking the Immolator needs a rework, aside from a new box?

And even if it did, why the frak would it be combined with the Exorcist? Other than the Rhino at their heart, the designs are very different (assuming pipe organ artillery remains as the design).

Not sure why people think the Immolator needs to be redone. It is fine as it is. Probably because the Exorcist metal parts are attached to the Immolator pieces.

Now the Exorcist needs to be converted to plastic to get rid of those metal parts. The question is will we get a plastic pipe organ or will GW go in a different direction to give themselves an easy opportunity to build a second tank off of the new sprue they create for the Exorcist?

After that, I expect GW will want to create a plastic Penitent Engine to allow them to check that vehicle off the list. It is possible they decide to go in an entirely different direction, but that's the easy pick.

 BBAP wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sorry but I agree 100% with him

Don't apologise for believing something, it smacks of low self esteem.

Well, I'm sorry I said I was sorry to believe that you were incredibly dense on the issue… I guess . Is that better on the self-esteem side?

 alextroy wrote:
Not sure why people think the Immolator needs to be redone. It is fine as it is. Probably because the Exorcist metal parts are attached to the Immolator pieces.

Now the Exorcist needs to be converted to plastic to get rid of those metal parts. The question is will we get a plastic pipe organ or will GW go in a different direction to give themselves an easy opportunity to build a second tank off of the new sprue they create for the Exorcist?

After that, I expect GW will want to create a plastic Penitent Engine to allow them to check that vehicle off the list. It is possible they decide to go in an entirely different direction, but that's the easy pick.

This is hilarious to me. People think the Immolator DOESN'T need to be reworked?

Compare the new Death Guard models to the old ones. Have you seen the old metal Plague Marines? They're a head shorter than normal Tactical Marines by this point. The new Death Guard models are now similar in size to the new Primaris, not to mention the incredible level of detail that's packed into those models.

By ignoring kits like the Immolator, you open the army up to look horribly mixed between the old style of models that are 20+ years old, and new models that will have a much higher fidelity. It'd be like playing a video game where all of the graphics are hyper realistic, but once in a while you'll face an enemy that looks like it was dragged out of the original Pacman. How distracting!!

More importantly, I think that GW needs to prepare for the time when eventually the Rhino will be changed as the end-all be-all tank of the Imperium. That kit is showing its age. I understand that its versatility is impressive, covering multiple Imperium and Chaos factions with minor bits swaps, but it still will suffer from that difference in resolution of detail without some help.

I'd actually prefer to see the Immolator and Exorcist totally replaced by a new kind of transport option that's not based on the Rhino at all.