Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.

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**Grey Templar**

So my thoughts,

Spoiler:

**AduroT**

Grey Templar wrote:
So my thoughts,

Spoiler:

So yeah. they handwaived the casualties saying only around half of the defenders at Winterfell died from all involved.

The whole Ballista thingy has gotten wayyy dumb. No way is a bunch of big spears gonna take out Rhaegol that fast. The show writers clearly have no idea how ballista actually work, how long they actually take to reload, or what their realistic range is.

Also the ones mounted all over Kings Landing are completely unusable BTW. They're too big for a human to actually manipulate, nor is there enough space on the platform to actually move and aim it even if someone was able to do so.

Also I didn’t see any spare ammo nearby to reload with unless they were down several of those ladders. Also just come in from above, no way they can aim up.

**H.B.M.C.**

Well that was a significant improvement over last weeks dark debacle.

The sad part is now we have to endure another round of screeching about how Missandei's death is "fringing" and "problematic" and "racist" and whatever.

Grey Templar wrote:
Also the ones mounted all over Kings Landing are completely unusable BTW. They're too big for a human to actually manipulate, nor is there enough space on the platform to actually move and aim it even if someone was able to do so.[/spoiler]

Who says you need to aim? Build enough of them and then it just becomes a matter of time until one of them hits.

You only need one.

**gianlucafiorentini123**

I wonder if Euron will pick up on Tyrion knowing about the baby from before he'd actually slept with her.

**Yodhrin**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well that was a significant improvement over last weeks dark debacle.

The sad part is now we have to endure another round of screeching about how Missandei's death is "fringing" and "problematic" and "racist" and whatever.

On the plus side, we may also get to enjoy the sight of the same group imploding like a black hole if the show actually goes through with the setup this episode seems to have given us.

Spoiler:

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Yep. Enjoyed that.

Nice bit of tension rising in all corners, which is preferable to peeps being all happy crappy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
I wonder if Euron will pick up on Tyrion knowing about the baby from before he'd actually slept with her.

Indeed.

Especially as Euron is the younger Greyjoy brother...

**Necros**

Spoiler:

**Baragash**

Was a good episode up until the point where the "good" guys appeared to weaponise the tactical stupidity they developed in the previous episode.

I think I just want the story put out of it's misery now.

**Galas**

Spoiler:

**gorgon**

So.

Spoiler:

- Magic ballistas! Seriously though, the showrunners had to introduce something to level the playing field against the dragons. Otherwise there's no real conflict. I get it. It's the execution that's lacking. I think you can have the same basic events happen but told differently so that that story has an ounce or two of verisimilitude and doesn't feel like a couple of little kids playing with toys. "An' then they bring out their ballistas! Pew! Pew! An' then there's a whole bunch of them on the ships and all along the walls! Pew-pew-pew-pew-pew!"

- I think it's reasonable for Daenerys to retreat there, BTW. She considers the dragons her children, and she'd be motivated to protect Drogon at that point. Sure, logic suggests she could just dive on the Red Keep and stay pretty safe. But those are magic repeater ballistas that can be swiveled and aimed in every direction by a single operator. So again, I can see her turning back against a deus ex machina of that magnitude.

- Is Rhaegal dead for certain? When a character asks the question in a TV show and the body wasn't found...the being in question is usually alive. Rhaegal was the one that people expected would be tied to Jon (based on its name), and this episode also reminded us that Jon died and returned. Then again, maybe it's foreshadowing Jon's death at the hands of a crossbow.

Or perhaps it doesn't represent anything other than the showrunners somewhat clumsily taking another piece off the board to advance the endgame. Yeah, it's probably that.

- I don't buy Daenerys' heel turn. They've spent too much time building her up in the show into a symbol of feminine power. Now the books...there I'd believe that she'd go mad, forcing Jon to kill her and sorta fulfilling the Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa prophecy. Daenerys just isn't as likeable of a character in the books. Still, maybe that's where GRRM wants it to go and the showrunners feel obligated to take it there. But then you'd think they would have laid more groundwork for the heel turn before now. And they've thrown out the Azor Ahai/Prince who was Promised thing anyway. *shrug*

- Do these writers really think we gotta have more Euron? I think they do, which is a horrifying thought.

- My bet is still that Jon ends up in the black again, as foreshadowed by Maester Aemon. Assuming Daenerys finds her marbles, that solves the Jon problem. Don't need the NW anymore? Well, they do if the queen says they do. And given these writers, I won't be shocked if the last scene is a pale hand picking up the NK's ice spear, with the words "The End?" appearing.

- The little summit meeting at the end was a stupid moment in an episode that I thought started fairly strongly. Why would they have *ever* exposed themselves like that? But once again...it's all about the spectacle and 'big moments' to win on social media...sense be damned.

**LunarSol**

Quite liked how the big death tied back to two of the bigger moments from early in the story. I’d not at this point be too surprised if Arya ends up killing Dany.

**Kap'n Krump**

So, at the end of episode 4................

What possible justification did Cersei have to NOT slaughter everyone at her gate? Just friggin' rain down ballistae fire until there's nothing but red mist. And it's not like she fears the dragon anymore.

I mean, it's clear that she had the overwhelming advantage. She's not stupid, and certainly not stupid enough to let her mortal enemy just walk away, especially for the sake of 'honor'. She doesn't give a gak what anyone thinks about her methods.

Between the artillery, archers, and maybe a cavalry charge to mop up the survivors, she could have basically won in a matter of minutes.

At the absolute MINIMUM, she should have killed Tyrion. He basically, indirectly, threatened her unborn child, and she utterly loathes him. Why NOT turn him into a pincushion for his insolence? His plot armor is getting a bit ridiculous, especially by GoT standards.

But I'm the psychopath who enjoys watching popular GoT characters die just so I can hear people bitch about it, so maybe that's just my perspective.

Other notes:

How did they have half their forces leftover from the battle of winterfell? It seemed like a complete rout, with basically only main characters left alive. I assumed there were some other survivors, but half seems massively huge. One of my nitpicks about that episode was that there seemed to be no pockets of resistance, it seemed to be just a complete massacre. And half the dothraki still alive? I wouldn't have expected 10% to still be alive.

After getting ambushed and their fleet sunk by the Greyjoys, how did the unsullied get any of their weapons/armor back to be in formation at the red keep? For that matter, how were they not all captured by a pursuing landing party from the Greyjoy fleet?

**gorgon**

Kap'n, the showrunners just want you to turn your brain off and enjoy the fireworks. There's very little sense to anything at this point.

**LunarSol**

I think theoretically they’re supposed to be out of range, which is why it matters when Tyrion steps forward. Unfortunately being actually out of range would remove the character interaction so they move everything closer than it should be.

**gorgon**

LOL, the exact thing that Shazam riffed on.

"Are you making some, like, big, evil-guy speech right now or somethin'? You're like a mile away from me, and there's traffic and cars and stuff! All I see is mouth-movin'!"

**Kap'n Krump**

LunarSol wrote:
I think theoretically they’re supposed to be out of range, which is why it matters when Tyrion steps forward. Unfortunately being actually out of range would remove the character interaction so they move everything closer than it should be.

I guess they were probably out of archer range (except tyrion, who still should have died), but those ballistas were placing INCREDIBLY accurate fire on a flying target (from a moving boat, to boot) from like a quarter-mile away not 10 minutes earlier. Shooting a quarter that distance from a stationary platform at a stationary target should have been child's play.

And then I'm sure they had cavalry, which wouldn't have been ideal v. unsullied pikemen, but there were like 50 of them.

Anyways. I get it's just a show, and I should really just relax, but the whole thing seemed incredibly out of character. I thought that when tyrion suggested demanding surrender, he meant via a messenger or something. Not sauntering up to their front door and slapping her in the face, like Baldur did to Kratos at the beginning of God of War.

**gorgon**

The showrunners' M.O. seems to focus on the big moment they want to create. Then they adjust everything else -- characters, consistency, sense, etc. -- for fit.

They wanted a certain something to die, so the ballistas were unearthly in that scene. Next, they wanted the the face-to-face confrontation and an echo of Ned's execution, so the ballistas were more grounded in that scene.

Similarly, we have Cersei obeying some kind of rules of parley even though she's unstable and untrustworthy, and Daenerys' advisors thinking the meeting is a good idea when they should know better. Because the writers WANT. THAT. MOMENT.

**dracpanzer**

So why didn't anyone ask Bran what Cersei had been up to while they were offing the Night King? Why didn't Bran himself think to look?

He somehow saw what Leanna said to Eddard on her death bed without any ravens in the room as soon as Sam said "hey look".

Wow we survived the Night King. Hey Bran, what has Cersei been up to?

Better than recon by dragon I would think. Oh, woohoo another episode of do nothing for 80% and some scooby doo gotcha stuff in the last few chapters. Seems a lot like Book 5.

**Flashman**

Like many, I'm just slogging towards the end now.

It's still entertaining, just disappointing that they rushed what could have been an interesting season with Dany's slow descent into paranoia / madness.

I would have stuck the Battle of Winterfell (and token mop up episode) at the end of Season 7 and given the Dany vs Cersei storyline an entire season to breathe (as opposed to 3 episodes).

EDIT - I'm guessing the writers just wanted to get on and do other stuff

**thekingofkings**

Well my take is:
1) I love Euron, Super pirate that he is.
2) only 50% casualties for the defenders of Winterfell to me means they came out great for what happened, I was expecting closer to 80%
3) I concur with those thinking the modern sensibilty/social justice/political folks should just watch it for what it is, a show in a setting that is closer to Europe. There is no "message" for modern folks here, just a fantasy story.

**BlaxicanX**

There *used* to be a message. GRRM has explicitly stated that the white walkers are a metaphor for climate change, as an example. In general there is a lot of commentary on gender relations, systems of governance, religion etc.

But yeah its fair to say that the show is nothing but dumb entertainment at this point.

**Ouze**

My favorite moment was definitely Daenerys choosing Starbucks at the victory feast (skip to 16:35).

**Flashman**

I can't believe nobody spotted that during filming.

It could be a genuine prop that just looks like a coffee cup

**gorgon**

It's kind of a shame that I see that and think "And there's some product placement. Sure, why not at this point?"

After thinking about it, it seems fairly obvious that episode 5 will bring both a big battle (featuring one set of characters with the army) and a move directly at Cersei (featuring the three individuals who set out alone).

The likely scenario is that Arya probably goes after Cersei using Faceless Men ninjitsu, but the unkillable Ser Stone intervenes. Then the Hound steps in and we get Cleganebowl. Jaime will be there, but does he become the Queenslayer? I'm not sure, especially if Cersei is genuinely pregnant.

Does this leave a final episode for Jon vs. Daenerys, then? This pace is nuts, and the show would have benefited from full seasons devoted to Winterfell and King's Landing even with the slipshod writing. But one ep to solve the Cersei issue and one ep to resolve the Iron Throne issue feels like the pace they're going for.

**Gordon Shumway**

One detail I quite enjoyed was after the kings landing parley, Circe gave a brief smile that said she enjoyed the grief she just caused. Then in the next shot Dany went through a series of emotions, first the grief which slowly morphed into the exact same smirk Circe just gave but instead its she will enjoy the grief she will cause.

**BlaxicanX**

Spoiler:

**Grey Templar**

Ouze wrote:
My favorite moment was definitely Daenerys choosing Starbucks at the victory feast (skip to 16:35).

OMG, that’s hilarious.

Of course you can only notice it if you zoom in really close.

**gorgon**

BlaxicanX wrote:

Spoiler:

If only she had advisors around her, including the smartest guy around, a guy with a massive spy network, and a guy wired into a medieval internet.

**Ouze**

Grey Templar wrote:
Of course you can only notice it if you zoom in really close.

I didn't zoom it at all. Watch the episode again at around 16:35, it's just sitting there.

**CthuluIsSpy**

I actually don't mind the dragon getting intercepted.
It was clearly by surprise and the dragon wasn't going that fast or engaging in evasive maneuvers, so its plausible that the ballistae operators had enough time to lead the shot and take aim.

Danny not going in and torching them is also plausible, as they had a lot of ballistae, which means that there's a chance that one of them could hit. It was a fair calculation.

What is odd though is how none of her ships had ballistae. I'm not talking about the fancy dragon killing ones that were invented by Qyburn, I'm talking bog standard variants, and I'm pretty sure those exist.