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 Insectum7 wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
Are there any adaptive rules for newer models out there? Namely for 2nd/3rd ed Genestealers and CWE.

Depends on what you are trying to do exactly

As long as it is a compatible codex entry (3rd-7th) it is easy enough to adapt into any edition, we just use 5th as our core. our chaos player uses his hell drake in conjunction with his 3.5 chaos dex.

Just trying to make some new models fit into the older editions, the Spiritseer for example. How difficult would you say it is? Just adapt weapon changes and such? Or is it more complicated than that?

Spiritseer just looks like a Farseer with a Witchblade. I think you're good to go with that, and here's hardly any translation required.

It looks like it, but my list is reliant on it's buffs to Wraith Constructs, thus my questions.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
Are there any adaptive rules for newer models out there? Namely for 2nd/3rd ed Genestealers and CWE.

Depends on what you are trying to do exactly

As long as it is a compatible codex entry (3rd-7th) it is easy enough to adapt into any edition, we just use 5th as our core. our chaos player uses his hell drake in conjunction with his 3.5 chaos dex.

Just trying to make some new models fit into the older editions, the Spiritseer for example. How difficult would you say it is? Just adapt weapon changes and such? Or is it more complicated than that?

Spiritseer just looks like a Farseer with a Witchblade. I think you're good to go with that, and here's hardly any translation required.

It looks like it, but my list is reliant on it's buffs to Wraith Constructs, thus my questions.

I see. So I'm not too familiar with 6th/7th edition CWE codexes, but in the 4th edition Wraithlords and Wraithguard had a rule called Wraithsight, which requires that the models take a test to correctly percieve the battlefield around them, unless there is a friendly Psyker within 6". Since there were no Spiritseers in 4th ed, that makes Warlocks and Farseers the characters that alleviate the woes of Wraith-constructs. So in that sense just using your Spiritseer model as a Farseer/Warlock in 4th more or less means the same thing in regards to wraith-constructs, as those are the characters that support them.

In fact looking at the 8th Ed Eldar book, The Spiritseer and Farseer are nearly identical anyways. In 4th edition your Farseer and Spiritseer are just the same person/model.

Edit: I should add that in 3rd edition Wraith constructs do not have the Wraithsight rule, and there's no way to buff them that I'm aware of outside of the typical Eldar psychic powers.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
Are there any adaptive rules for newer models out there? Namely for 2nd/3rd ed Genestealers and CWE.

Depends on what you are trying to do exactly

As long as it is a compatible codex entry (3rd-7th) it is easy enough to adapt into any edition, we just use 5th as our core. our chaos player uses his hell drake in conjunction with his 3.5 chaos dex.

Just trying to make some new models fit into the older editions, the Spiritseer for example. How difficult would you say it is? Just adapt weapon changes and such? Or is it more complicated than that?

Spiritseer just looks like a Farseer with a Witchblade. I think you're good to go with that, and here's hardly any translation required.

It looks like it, but my list is reliant on it's buffs to Wraith Constructs, thus my questions.

I see. So I'm not too familiar with 6th/7th edition CWE codexes, but in the 4th edition Wraithlords and Wraithguard had a rule called Wraithsight, which requires that the models take a test to correctly percieve the battlefield around them, unless there is a friendly Psyker within 6". Since there were no Spiritseers in 4th ed, that makes Warlocks and Farseers the characters that alleviate the woes of Wraith-constructs. So in that sense just using your Spiritseer model as a Farseer/Warlock in 4th more or less means the same thing in regards to wraith-constructs, as those are the characters that support them.

In fact looking at the 8th Ed Eldar book, The Spiritseer and Farseer are nearly identical anyways. In 4th edition your Farseer and Spiritseer are just the same person/model.

Edit: I should add that in 3rd edition Wraith constructs do not have the Wraithsight rule, and there's no way to buff them that I'm aware of outside of the typical Eldar psychic powers.

The 3rd Ed supplement ‘Codex Craftworld Eldar’ (which had variant lists for the 5 major Craftworlds) contained rules for Spiritseers in the Iyanden list. IIRC they explicitly buffed wraith constructs though I don’t remember how.

That supplement had some cool stuff (amongst some OP stuff):
Spiritseers for Iyander, Seer Councils and black guardians for Ulthwe, Wild Rider Chieftains and bodyguards (jetbike riding melee HQ) for Saim Hain, pathfinders for Alaitoc, and the court of the young king (Avatar and exarchs in one squad) for Biel Tan.

^Oh yeah! I forgot about that supplement. (Also my group mostly played Ulthwe or Alaitoc rather than Iyanden, so those are the bits I remember better).

I probably have that pamphlet-codex around somewhere. I'll have to dig around for it.

Technically, you did have Spiritseers in the 4th ed codex; they were an upgrade for a Warlock that extended the range to negate Wraithsight to 12".


Anyway, I finally signed up to Dakka to join this discussion. I'm just not interested in 9th ed anymore, and would love to go back to play 4th/5th. Most of my gaming group is on board as well, but we're also hoping to retrofit all the new units, weapons, etc that did not exist at the time.
Since I don't know (or simply haven't found) any other online community looking to do the same thing, I figured I'd jump in here and see if maybe we can get something going on this forum!

Radium wrote:
Technically, you did have Spiritseers in the 4th ed codex; they were an upgrade for a Warlock that extended the range to negate Wraithsight to 12".

Well I'll be darned, look at that! Neat.

Radium wrote:
Anyway, I finally signed up to Dakka to join this discussion. I'm just not interested in 9th ed anymore, and would love to go back to play 4th/5th. Most of my gaming group is on board as well, but we're also hoping to retrofit all the new units, weapons, etc that did not exist at the time.
Since I don't know (or simply haven't found) any other online community looking to do the same thing, I figured I'd jump in here and see if maybe we can get something going on this forum!

Welcome!

I gotta say one of the things I liked about the older editions is that there were fewer weapons. Not that you can't retrofit a lot of the current stuff to fit, but if it was me, I'd try to keep things simple. I'll post my favorite comparison, which is the weapons list for Space Marines in 4th vs. Space Marines in 8th

Radium wrote:
Technically, you did have Spiritseers in the 4th ed codex; they were an upgrade for a Warlock that extended the range to negate Wraithsight to 12".

Well thank you! I'll take a look at that, and adapt it in!

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not that you can't retrofit a lot of the current stuff to fit, but if it was me, I'd try to keep things simple.

Aye, I'd generally agree that keeping it simple is the way to go. For example, I don't feel the need to have bespoke options for all the various bolt weapons Intercessors have. However, I'd also like to be able to use some of the new units and armies for things released in 8th and 9th edition, that may not have a good unit to proxy as in earlier editions (GSC comes to mind, but other armies such as AdMech, TS, DG, Harlequins, and Ynnari all lose out to some degree).

Some fun times-

game 1 of the 40K side of things was a 4 way kill team game
iron hands VS tempestor scions VS imperial guard VS salamanders.







Iron hands ran away (literally with the objective) with the win on this one.

The other big game of 5th ed was a classic matchup-
3.5 iron warriors VS a 3.0 chapter approved armored company guard list.






Iron warriors pulled off the win with some seriously lucky dice rolls.

Although props to the guard player for pulling off something i can never seem to do-kill one of those darn chaos predators.

The first game of the night was a rematch agianst IG with my admech force suing the old 3rd ed titan rules.

The game-our 5th ed hybrid rules at 2k points
The mission-3 objectives.


The IG player used fortification from the stronghold assault book to make a fitting Ig defense line. with a bunker/defense wall and automated defense turret.

The taurox was a stand in for a hell hound.





Both sides started with an objective near their deployment zone so we quickly parked some troops on them giving us both a point of control all game since neither of use could knock the other off a point.

Creed had a squad of russes outflank the titan and i counter outflanked with a squad of sicaran infiltrators




The combined fire (and bad rolls on my part) of the tanks and las cannon teams gave the IG a moral victory destroying the titan




If the game had ended turn 5 the IG would have taken the day, but a neutral 3rd party rolled us another turn allowing the cataphrons to kick the IG off the third objective giving a hard fought win to the admech.


Game 2
set up-1k points tau VS orks agains same 5th ed rule set
missions-center table objective
deployment-end to end 24" deployment

This was a training game for a guy who had a very small number of tau models and the lack of vehicle really hurt him in a 5th edition game making him to slow to get away from the green tide.

loads of orks died(as one would expect), but not nearly enough. leaving the orks with the objective and the tau player with only some crisis suits left on the table.

Went very old school tonight breaking out some of the minis from my first 40K army from 2 decades past.

The codex i used was the old 2nd edition codex used through 3rd edition since the DAs never got a new dex until 4th.

This allowed me to make some fun army list choices.

There was no master of the deathwing aka Belial in this codex and any member of the inner circle could lead the deathwing, as such i gave supreme grand master Azrael a deathwing command squad back when an apothecary and a techmarine could be in terminator armor.

In other sillyness i used his personal command land raider Prometheus- Angelis Imperator and a squad of fellow legion ...er i mean successors- guardians of the covenant



We rolled up a table quarters deployment and a kill points match-

the crimson fists ended up going first. which was good for him since it is very much an assault themed army with podding combi-melta sternguard and assault terminators.

We both were having some horrible rolls. he lost most of his terminators to basic bolter hits failing 2+ saves and when my terminators finally got into CC i failed most of my wound rolls of 2+

Still it was a fun game with the fists pulling off a 7/5 win on kill points. tie breakers were a wash. we killed each others warlord, he got line breaker and i got first blood.

Land Raider Helios and Prometheus?

Me so jelly!

And with archeotech spaced armor. there was a time when i owned every singe land raider variant available...then they came out with the ares, terminus ultra and redeemer....Do i need more than 5 land raiders....well yes but how would i transport them?

I once wanted to do a "Land Raiders throughout the Ages" project, as I have the original Land Raider mini so could do it, to the Mk.II that was in Epic 40k (that FW made a kit for), then to the current Mk.III, and throw in things like the Prometheus, Helios and Crusader.

Then they made the Redeemer, and then lots of others, and the HH variants, and it's too much now.

My favorite is still my achilles...but so damn expensive. in 5th ed it is like 350 points. if they had mad an actual release kit for the ares i probably would have had one...oh and the spartan the superheavy land raider.

@aphyon:
Every army got a codex during 3rd. Even the Dark Angels.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@aphyon:
Every army got a codex during 3rd. Even the Dark Angels.

Just checked it again-
2002, 3rd edition-2nd edition of the DA codex aka mini dex

aphyon wrote:
My favorite is still my achilles...but so damn expensive. in 5th ed it is like 350 points

325pts in IA2 2nd edition, 300pts everywhere else.
I remember running one a couple of times in 5th and some armies couldn't even scratch the paint, and in the first game we ran them in a big landraider face-off and it rolled straight over them.

The alpha-variant (still at 300pts) added terrain rerolls and turned the quad-mortar into a quad-missile launcher with rerolls to penetrate, it was a beast but at that point was overshadowed by d-weapons.

Pity forgeworld has culled them all.

Mine is kitted with the siege shield just like the vindicator, so no terrain checks at all. with the storm bolter it clocks in at 345 points.

It is the core of my dreadnought siege army based on IA11 (original release)

It is a bit cheaper when i used it in 30K games, but the ammo types are limited. although the short range AT shells are nasty..

Pity forgeworld has culled them all.

Well it has nothing to do with primaris so not s surprise

Going small, we havent broken out the epic scale stuff in a while so we got 2 games in.

game 1 was Iyanden eldar VS knights and a reaver titan i loaned to the other player.









The planes won the game for me on this one.

Game 2 was a smaller game without any superheavies my admech crawler/breacher force (on loan) up against the eldar again.


This turned in to a close in brawl with the admech coming out on top.

Didn't have loads of time for this one so we did a super silly little 500 point game.
SOB (3rd ed codex) VS dark angels (3rd ed codex) with 5th ed rules.


We are going to try to get a bigger game in later but this was it for now-SOB faith was strong and they won the day(and i could not hit them for anything in CC or wound them when i did hit...although the faith points saved the squad fighting my librarian by making their armor save invulnerable).

 aphyon wrote:
We are going to try to get a bigger game in later but this was it for now-SOB faith was strong and they won the day(and i could not hit them for anything in CC or wound them when i did hit...although the faith points saved the squad fighting my librarian by making their armor save invulnerable).

Witch Hunter Sisters were particularly poor at inflicting damage in close combat, but quite good at controlling when they died with the book of St. Lucius. With the old 'no retreat' rules selective stubborness was about as good as it got.

I have not had a SOB army since 4th ed, i even had a couple FW repressors. great times, still have the codex...and lord inquisitor Karamozov pro painted by an old gaming buddy.

As far as inflicting damage in CC that's why they repentia and penitent engines.

The rest of the army just purifies you with fire/melta and faith (rending flamers being annoyingly effective).

 aphyon wrote:
As far as inflicting damage in CC that's why they repentia and penitent engines.

I have to assume you haven't tried them yet.

Repentia were arguably the second worst unit around 4th-5th edition, just behind the space pope. High cost, low durability, no faith or transportation, striking last with one attack each and with random compulsory movement.

Penitent engines can be effective but you really need to run into a list with a lack of counters. Meltaguns pretty much auto-penetrate and stop them dead on a roll of 2+ and against infantry they have a bad habit of heavy-flamering themselves out of charge range. They are also steered almost entirely by the opponent so if you face someone who knows what's up your 240pt assault unit will be chasing a 35pt rhino off into the distance never to be seen again.


Generally you might find they do ok in their first outing and then get progressively worse as opponents know what they are and how to deal with them. IMO the 3e sisters best bet for close combat is to have squads ready to shoot the enemy unit after they finish wiping out the sisters they are engaged with, taking advantage of the lack of sweeping combat in 5th.

I have to assume you haven't tried them yet.

Been on the receiving end of them many times. i know exactly how they work, my point was even though situational they do hit and do a good job of wounding.

 aphyon wrote:
Been on the receiving end of them many times. i know exactly how they work, my point was even though situational they do hit and do a good job of wounding.

3e repentia? The 5e (especially with 6e rage) were entirely different beasts between their lower costs, more attacks, and ability to use transports.

The 3e repentia were T3 footsloggers and the 3e penitents were compelled to move towards the closest unit. I actually own 9 of the old metal penitents but at 1000pts for 9 walkers and one medium squad of sisters that can be collectively defeated by a couple of heavy bolters and waved carrots they were tough to get onto the table outside of gimmick lists*


(*specifically 9 penitents, karamazov, repentia, arcos, priests, arbites, and the zealots from chapter approved. It carries the element of surprise if nothing else.)

A.T. wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
As far as inflicting damage in CC that's why they repentia and penitent engines.

I have to assume you haven't tried them yet.

Repentia were arguably the second worst unit around 4th-5th edition, just behind the space pope. High cost, low durability, no faith or transportation, striking last with one attack each and with random compulsory movement.

Penitent engines can be effective but you really need to run into a list with a lack of counters. Meltaguns pretty much auto-penetrate and stop them dead on a roll of 2+ and against infantry they have a bad habit of heavy-flamering themselves out of charge range. They are also steered almost entirely by the opponent so if you face someone who knows what's up your 240pt assault unit will be chasing a 35pt rhino off into the distance never to be seen again.


Generally you might find they do ok in their first outing and then get progressively worse as opponents know what they are and how to deal with them. IMO the 3e sisters best bet for close combat is to have squads ready to shoot the enemy unit after they finish wiping out the sisters they are engaged with, taking advantage of the lack of sweeping combat in 5th.

I always thought the notion of putting elite troops which were hard to come by into rags and whipping them into combat to be used as cannon fodder ultimately idiotic even for the grimdark universe of 40K. If they forgot to shine their boots they deserve some kind of heat but not a death sentence.

Oh, and T3 troops clad in rags SHOULD be easy to kill. Guess they bought overpriced eviscerators otherwise their point cost wouldn't be so high.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Oh, and T3 troops clad in rags SHOULD be easy to kill. Guess they bought overpriced eviscerators otherwise their point cost wouldn't be so high.

There was a second eviscerator unit in 3rd edition - zealots. They were a chapter approved add-on for the earlier CA sisters codex but technically still valid for witch hunters.

Even slower, even less armour, and even more expensive eviscerators. And also a better unit as they were comprised primarily of 5pt chaff (at a time when guardsmen were 6), a 20 model strong scoring troops unit with protection against morale tests, and the 4-5 eviscerator wielding models had two attacks each.

I wonder how similar they will be to the new sisters novices.

After a bit of a break we got more of our retro kill team campaign in. tonight it was loads of marines and some guardsmen-iron hands, VS, black legion VS salamanders VS tempestus scions.


This was another relic search with 5 objective markers and 4 boobytraps.


As it turned out the random objective that turned out to be the real one happened to be smack in the middle of the table. causing a great tug of war over the prize, changing hands no less than 3 times. The scions ended up winning the day first by taking down the iron hands in close combat (even guard power fists can hurt marines). and then dropping a chaos thousand sons terminator with an over-watch plasma pistol shot before it could charge in and take the prize away.

Just a quick one today-

We have a guy who is slowly building up his TAU for our 5th ed games using the 4th ed tau codex. we also got him copies of all the old rules FW (from our resident TAU fanatic) for commanders r'myr, r'alai, the tetra speeder, TX42 speeder, sentry turrets etc...

He got a devilfish in so he got his list bumped up to 1k points.

We did a quick game-

we rolled random for objectives and got kill points with end to tned table deployment.

I ran my 3rd ed DA codex with a mix of units.



He ran both FW commanders with bodyguards, a couple fire warrior squads, pathfinder team and a sniper team. .

It was a silly game, he managed to destroy the dreadnought with EMP grenades and immobilized and weapon destroyed all the other vehicles without actually killing them.

Only the drop pod survived unscathed and Grand master azrael stood alone at the end.

he had both command squads and alone fire warrior left at the end of the game.

Good times.