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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Billagio wrote:
Yeah we just got the last PA books and were in a middle of a pandemic when 9th dropped. They coulda given us a little more time to play with what just came out and used that time to gather data and write tighter rules


The community is its own worst enemy.

"GW should take more time" and "GW should release all the rules day 1 so that everyone is on the same page" stand at opposite interaction.

While they were writing the marine book they were also -- writing PA books, updating the FAQs to try and balance what was there, and were in the midst of producing this "edition".

Now we're in "9th", which is really 8.5. The changes are close enough that some heavy errata could have done them. But if you asked people if they would enjoy carting around all that extra paperwork what would their response be? You likely know as well as I that keeping track of growing changes on top of GW goofs gets really difficult.

So re-condense them into a new BRB. A BRB that was an improvement over all previous BRBs in terms of clarity and errors (there are still some issues and oddities). Yes, I'm sure everyone would love free online rules, but GW isn't going to suddenly drop a revenue stream.

Now we're faced with an expanded design space and people both want everything now, but also want it to be perfect. But then so much has changed - do they keep balancing us while they wait to get all the books ready or just let us linger and waiting impatiently?

It isn't a simple thing.



   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




While they were writing the marine book they were also -- writing PA books, updating the FAQs to try and balance what was there, and were in the midst of producing this "edition".

And that was their mistake. It has zero to do with the 'community,' GW shouldn't have been trying to juggle a new edition and a pointless update to the old edition on an absurdly short sales cycle.

8th was rushed from beginning to end, and because they were still rushing out 8th edition updates they didn't do 9th edition updates properly.

All. On. Them.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Voss wrote:
While they were writing the marine book they were also -- writing PA books, updating the FAQs to try and balance what was there, and were in the midst of producing this "edition".

And that was their mistake. It has zero to do with the 'community,' GW shouldn't have been trying to juggle a new edition and a pointless update to the old edition on an absurdly short sales cycle.

8th was rushed from beginning to end, and because they were still rushing out 8th edition updates they didn't do 9th edition updates properly.

All. On. Them.


Have some sympathy for our corporate overlords, thanks.
ALSO it's far too early to assume they haven't done the 9th ed updates properly, just wait and see.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The community is its own worst enemy.

"GW should take more time" and "GW should release all the rules day 1 so that everyone is on the same page" stand at opposite interaction.


They really don't, unless you actively choose to construe it that way. I don't recall players champing at the bit for GW to release a new edition, especially when CA2019 actually got things to a pretty good state. They easily could have delayed the launch of 9th so as to have all the rules ready day 1 in a playtested and holistic state.

Apparently this release schedule is more profitable than doing it right once and for all, though, so here we are.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Hecaton wrote:
Breton wrote:
We're still a long ways away from getting a well tuned edition. They revamped everything in 8th. It's going to take another pass or two of Codex to iron it all out as they figure out what they broke. And that's before 9th added more balls to juggle like Crusade. Crusade could develop into a league system, as well as a narrative/summer campaign system.


Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


ok let's imagine a world where GW does just that, as a result GW doesn't release ANYTHING, nto a single fething thing at all for over a year.

how would that work out?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I feel so sorry for GW, the way they were strong-armed by the community into releasing 9th edition even though they really wanted to take 3 more years on 8th was shameful bullying of the worst sort.

Oh wait.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







BrianDavion wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Breton wrote:
We're still a long ways away from getting a well tuned edition. They revamped everything in 8th. It's going to take another pass or two of Codex to iron it all out as they figure out what they broke. And that's before 9th added more balls to juggle like Crusade. Crusade could develop into a league system, as well as a narrative/summer campaign system.


Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


ok let's imagine a world where GW does just that, as a result GW doesn't release ANYTHING, nto a single fething thing at all for over a year.

how would that work out?


Why would they have to release nothing for over a year to plan their releases/test the game properly in advance?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






yukishiro1 wrote:
I feel so sorry for GW, the way they were strong-armed by the community into releasing 9th edition even though they really wanted to take 3 more years on 8th was shameful bullying of the worst sort.

Oh wait.
^Lol. That's great.

Yeah, there's definitely other ways they could have handled the past year.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Hecaton wrote:


Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


How is resigned fatalism a reward? Did you actually read what I wrote, or what?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 catbarf wrote:

They really don't, unless you actively choose to construe it that way. I don't recall players champing at the bit for GW to release a new edition, especially when CA2019 actually got things to a pretty good state. They easily could have delayed the launch of 9th so as to have all the rules ready day 1 in a playtested and holistic state.

Apparently this release schedule is more profitable than doing it right once and for all, though, so here we are.


So you're saying marines were fine after CA19? And that no one wanted a lid put on CP and soup? And that marine rerolls weren't a prime target?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I feel so sorry for GW, the way they were strong-armed by the community into releasing 9th edition even though they really wanted to take 3 more years on 8th was shameful bullying of the worst sort.

Oh wait.


Do you...do you remember what happened with the Big FAQ was late? Call it what you want, but it seems clear to me that this isn't an edition - it's an update. A distinction without a difference to some, I suppose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 03:17:37


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Obviously a distinction with a difference for GW, since they decided to charge everyone full price for a new edition even though it isn't according to you.

Nobody was clamoring for a new edition. GW's decision to push out 9th even though it wasn't ready and there was no need to do so isn't on anyone but them. It's absurd to be making excuses for a company worth billions, as if it was forced to put out a new edition and had no choice in the matter.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





yukishiro1 wrote:
Obviously a distinction with a difference for GW, since they decided to charge everyone full price for a new edition even though it isn't according to you.

Nobody was clamoring for a new edition. GW's decision to push out 9th even though it wasn't ready and there was no need to do so isn't on anyone but them. It's absurd to be making excuses for a company worth billions, as if it was forced to put out a new edition and had no choice in the matter.


I didn't say they were forced to. I'm saying the community is so manic as to not know what it actually wants, because it wants everything and nothing all at the same time.

Because you know...the price people apparently were so upset to pay that they absolutely went nuts about GW not making enough boxes. But, yea, apparently no one clamored.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/23 05:31:51


   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




yukishiro1 wrote:
Obviously a distinction with a difference for GW, since they decided to charge everyone full price for a new edition even though it isn't according to you.

Nobody was clamoring for a new edition. GW's decision to push out 9th even though it wasn't ready and there was no need to do so isn't on anyone but them. It's absurd to be making excuses for a company worth billions, as if it was forced to put out a new edition and had no choice in the matter.


I disagree, if you consider what people spent a lot of time combining about by the end of 8th:

- core rules vastly different from the original printed version (reserves etc)
- disjointed rules packets
- assault being useless
- too many faqs and books to track
- lack of meaningful terrain rules
- problems with cp farming and soup

Those things form the basis of 9th edition. GW had no way of releasing all those changes without making 8th more of a mess.

Did people ask for a specific new edition? Not really, but they asked for so many things that addressing issues necessitated a new rulebook.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Voss wrote:
While they were writing the marine book they were also -- writing PA books, updating the FAQs to try and balance what was there, and were in the midst of producing this "edition".

And that was their mistake. It has zero to do with the 'community,' GW shouldn't have been trying to juggle a new edition and a pointless update to the old edition on an absurdly short sales cycle.

8th was rushed from beginning to end, and because they were still rushing out 8th edition updates they didn't do 9th edition updates properly.

All. On. Them.


Aren't they a traded company, and have to rise earnings early or no bonus and investors get mad?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Daedalus81 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Obviously a distinction with a difference for GW, since they decided to charge everyone full price for a new edition even though it isn't according to you.

Nobody was clamoring for a new edition. GW's decision to push out 9th even though it wasn't ready and there was no need to do so isn't on anyone but them. It's absurd to be making excuses for a company worth billions, as if it was forced to put out a new edition and had no choice in the matter.


I didn't say they were forced to. I'm saying the community is so manic as to not know what it actually wants, because it wants everything and nothing all at the same time.

Because you know...the price people apparently were so upset to pay that they absolutely went nuts about GW not making enough boxes. But, yea, apparently no one clamored.





Actually, the community demands for what it pays premium on, firstly and secondly, what the community really would like to see is an rules release for all factions at the same time. Aka all codices show up on the same time.

The assumption that GW put the noose on their neck because of the community is just asinine for a publicly traded multi million company.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 07:07:02


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

BrianDavion wrote:

ok let's imagine a world where GW does just that, as a result GW doesn't release ANYTHING, nto a single fething thing at all for over a year.

how would that work out?


*Laughs in Dark Eldar.*

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 vipoid wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

ok let's imagine a world where GW does just that, as a result GW doesn't release ANYTHING, nto a single fething thing at all for over a year.

how would that work out?


*Laughs in Dark Eldar.*


yeah. No new models for a whole edition isn't anything special.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

ok let's imagine a world where GW does just that, as a result GW doesn't release ANYTHING, nto a single fething thing at all for over a year.

how would that work out?


*Laughs in Dark Eldar.*


yeah. No new models for a whole edition isn't anything special.

Unless you Codex Spacemarines new models every other month who needs anything else.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Karol wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

ok let's imagine a world where GW does just that, as a result GW doesn't release ANYTHING, nto a single fething thing at all for over a year.

how would that work out?


*Laughs in Dark Eldar.*


yeah. No new models for a whole edition isn't anything special.


It's even better for Drukhari - if GW releases nothing, they also don't lose anything

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





If it ain't the truth jid, if it aint the truth.



Spoiler:
an actually really sad state of affairs for a GW mainfaction isn0't it.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




BrianDavion wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Breton wrote:
We're still a long ways away from getting a well tuned edition. They revamped everything in 8th. It's going to take another pass or two of Codex to iron it all out as they figure out what they broke. And that's before 9th added more balls to juggle like Crusade. Crusade could develop into a league system, as well as a narrative/summer campaign system.


Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


ok let's imagine a world where GW does just that, as a result GW doesn't release ANYTHING, nto a single fething thing at all for over a year.

how would that work out?


Beyond the sarcastic troll responses of "it always has been" for faction X. Lets give this a proper thought exercise:

- All books come out day 1, they contain rules for models that, due to GW's release schedule, won't see the light of day for 14 months
- People complain the models won't be coming out (evil GW)
- 3d printers (as in people who do) and 3rd parties will slowly fill the gaps
- People will buy stand in products of the new hotness to be hyper competitive
- People attend big events, Nova, Vegas etc.
- Peoples lists aren't allowed due to 3rd party models thanks to streams and GW support (evil GW)
- GW release kit at last, people aren't bothered because they already made knock-offs, or if they are bothered they're already salty about tournament situation (evil GW)
- New model doesn't sell as well because of this
- GW decide that range isn't monetarily viable and reduce support (self inflicted by the community evil GW)
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Well, you're just describing 5th edition

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Jidmah wrote:
Well, you're just describing 5th edition


Exactly, people either have very short memories or don't learn, not sure which
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Did you have a look at the news recently?

It's clearly both.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/23 10:39:07


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

I love when my armies don't get new releases for a long period actually, in my ideal world I'd only have to buy the rules, even for decades. Possibly one book per edition, not codex+supplement. As others said new releases also means squatted models.

That's exactly what the new buggies and ghaz did, even mek gunz shelved old big gunz forever. I actually fear new ork releases and the leaked image of that ork infantry model terryfies me.

I wish GW's politic was to push and encourage players to switch factions rather than invalidating older kits with updated ones. I really don't see any point in re-doing an army I already own; in fact primaris had (and still have) no appeal to me who already owned a SW army and I haven't bought a single SW model since the end of 7th edition.

I'd rather start an Adepta Sororitas army (or any other faction I like) than re-buying a new primarized SW one or a new ork army if also the greenskins get a complete new line of models. And I'm into orks since late 90s.


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Dudeface wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Breton wrote:
We're still a long ways away from getting a well tuned edition. They revamped everything in 8th. It's going to take another pass or two of Codex to iron it all out as they figure out what they broke. And that's before 9th added more balls to juggle like Crusade. Crusade could develop into a league system, as well as a narrative/summer campaign system.


Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


ok let's imagine a world where GW does just that, as a result GW doesn't release ANYTHING, nto a single fething thing at all for over a year.

how would that work out?


Beyond the sarcastic troll responses of "it always has been" for faction X. Lets give this a proper thought exercise:

- All books come out day 1, they contain rules for models that, due to GW's release schedule, won't see the light of day for 14 months
- People complain the models won't be coming out (evil GW)
- 3d printers (as in people who do) and 3rd parties will slowly fill the gaps
- People will buy stand in products of the new hotness to be hyper competitive
- People attend big events, Nova, Vegas etc.
- Peoples lists aren't allowed due to 3rd party models thanks to streams and GW support (evil GW)
- GW release kit at last, people aren't bothered because they already made knock-offs, or if they are bothered they're already salty about tournament situation (evil GW)
- New model doesn't sell as well because of this
- GW decide that range isn't monetarily viable and reduce support (self inflicted by the community evil GW)


you forgot "due to everything comoing out at once everyone buys one codex and models for their primary army, and no one impulse buys the other armies new release and decides it's time to start a second (or third or forth) army. also sales are stagnant for the year or so with no releases, which means during the annual shareholder meetings the CEO needs to deal with unhappy investors

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

Dudeface wrote:

Beyond the sarcastic troll responses of "it always has been" for faction X. Lets give this a proper thought exercise:

- All books come out day 1, they contain rules for models that, due to GW's release schedule, won't see the light of day for 14 months
- People complain the models won't be coming out (evil GW)
- 3d printers (as in people who do) and 3rd parties will slowly fill the gaps
- People will buy stand in products of the new hotness to be hyper competitive


Yep. Because no one ever converted models using parts from other GW models, thus providing GW with income and also ensuring that their models are tournament-legal.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 vipoid wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

Beyond the sarcastic troll responses of "it always has been" for faction X. Lets give this a proper thought exercise:

- All books come out day 1, they contain rules for models that, due to GW's release schedule, won't see the light of day for 14 months
- People complain the models won't be coming out (evil GW)
- 3d printers (as in people who do) and 3rd parties will slowly fill the gaps
- People will buy stand in products of the new hotness to be hyper competitive


Yep. Because no one ever converted models using parts from other GW models, thus providing GW with income and also ensuring that their models are tournament-legal.


Sure some will, most won't. It costs more to do that and takes both time and skill in conjunction. You're missing where people have been banned from using cheap kids crocodiles with green plastic army men riding them for rough riders the year before last. Tournament players (which Dakka seems to be 95% either made up of or obsessed with) will want an army together in the quickest time possible, not a labour of love.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 11:39:11


 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Dudeface wrote:

Sure some will, most won't. It costs more to do that and takes both time and skill in conjunction.


It takes more times for sure but typically is cheaper, otherwise why bother with conversions? I made 5 talos and 8 grotesques with ogre and stormfiends parts, same dimensions of the original ones, IMHO looking way better than the original models, full 100% GW plastic and some greenstuff (not GW but no one could tell the difference) for the same cost of 2 official talos models, probably even something less.

My flash gitz are all nobz on 40mm bases with modified kombiweapons, all made with spared bitz I had, I only bought the bases. 30-40% cheaper than buying official flash gitz models which are more expensive than nobz, and IMHO way better looking as I never like the pirate theme flash gitz have. I made tons of other conversions by using only plastic GW, all quite cheaper than buying the official model.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Blackie wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

Sure some will, most won't. It costs more to do that and takes both time and skill in conjunction.


It takes more times for sure but typically is cheaper, otherwise why bother with conversions? I made 5 talos and 8 grotesques with ogre and stormfiends parts, same dimensions of the original ones, IMHO looking way better than the original models, full 100% GW plastic and some greenstuff (not GW but no one could tell the difference) for the same cost of 2 official talos models, probably even something less.

My flash gitz are all nobz on 40mm bases with modified kombiweapons, all made with spared bitz I had, I only bought the bases. 30-40% cheaper than buying official flash gitz models which are more expensive than nobz, and IMHO way better looking as I never like the pirate theme flash gitz have. I made tons of other conversions by using only plastic GW, all quite cheaper than buying the official model.


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.
   
 
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