Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Amishprn86 wrote: We knew Reavers are not 10pt b.c of the last faq and we knew the book was already printed when the Munitorum Field Manual was printed, it was only WAAC players that wanted them at 10pts so that is a poor example.
Also again I quoted the rules and showed other rules that do the same thing. If you want to show me why you don't think that is the case then i'll be fine with you believing it that why, but don't say he cheated or its an "illegal" list when for many thats not cheat b.c it is clear you don't need a WL to use CoS relics/wl traits.
Oh boy, why are we still discussing this?.. I did tell you why I don't think it's the case. I'm not alone in my opinion. I'm not convinced that - based on the context of all the elements in that book - the intent is for you to have access to those relics without a CoS Warlord. I also said I may be wrong. What more are you looking for here?
Thank you for offering to 'be fine' with me believing something different to you. That's most generous...
We disagree. That's all. We really can move on, I promise!
We don't know the intent so we can not say that it is the intent....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/01 23:12:13
I still can't get my head around why DT was left completely untouched.
While it's cool in concept, shooting isn't really a core part of Coven functionality, and then on top of that the effect is REALLY strong and what limitation was built into the rule is totally obviated by it's most common application.
harlokin wrote: I still can't get my head around why DT was left completely untouched.
While it's cool in concept, shooting isn't really a core part of Coven functionality, and then on top of that the effect is REALLY strong and what limitation was built into the rule is totally obviated by it's most common application.
....I think I need a lie-down.
The same answer as always.
GWdevs don't really have a clue and the generally don't use faq's to nerf rules.
harlokin wrote: I still can't get my head around why DT was left completely untouched.
While it's cool in concept, shooting isn't really a core part of Coven functionality, and then on top of that the effect is REALLY strong and what limitation was built into the rule is totally obviated by it's most common application.
....I think I need a lie-down.
Only two things I can think of:
A) GW wants to sell more wracks--maybe they have a warehouse that has a sizeable percentage of them. Who knows.
B) GW wants to see how the most broken DE combos stack up to their upcoming released codices, which like DE aren't small, elite, relatively tough armies. If rumors are true, we should see Admech, Orks, and SoB in pretty short order.
harlokin wrote: I still can't get my head around why DT was left completely untouched.
While it's cool in concept, shooting isn't really a core part of Coven functionality, and then on top of that the effect is REALLY strong and what limitation was built into the rule is totally obviated by it's most common application.
....I think I need a lie-down.
Only two things I can think of:
A) GW wants to sell more wracks--maybe they have a warehouse that has a sizeable percentage of them. Who knows.
B) GW wants to see how the most broken DE combos stack up to their upcoming released codices, which like DE aren't small, elite, relatively tough armies. If rumors are true, we should see Admech, Orks, and SoB in pretty short order.
Almost everything drukhari has been sold out, even before the full codex rules were known. I believe when we finally got the leaks I went to look into buying some drukhari and everything was out of stock save for Drazar.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I know there are issues with the rules but since this is a tactis topic I have questions. Please keep in mind that I am not a competitive player.
5 strong wych squads in venoms. Venoms with two splinter cannons and chain snares. Hekatrix with either a power sword or an agoniser. Yes they cannot take any special weapons at that unit size but are they useful?
Beastmaster and Khymerae. I personally love the models so I use them. I've been thinking of harassing units or blocking infantry movement with them but is that really the best use for them?
I shall rule the world someday utilizing my cuteness. And I already have one minion to help me do it!
Hollowman wrote:
Of course it makes sense. When there are a bunch of BDSM clowns doing Olympic gymnast routines throughout your unit, while also cutting off heads, you tend to get a bit distracted.
gaovinni wrote: I know there are issues with the rules but since this is a tactis topic I have questions. Please keep in mind that I am not a competitive player.
5 strong wych squads in venoms. Venoms with two splinter cannons and chain snares. Hekatrix with either a power sword or an agoniser. Yes they cannot take any special weapons at that unit size but are they useful?
Beastmaster and Khymerae. I personally love the models so I use them. I've been thinking of harassing units or blocking infantry movement with them but is that really the best use for them?
personally Im not a fan of 5-strong wyches, I like them in 10 because I like the special weapons, but I don't think they're all that bad. in a 5-squad I'd rate the blast pistol as more important than the power sword/agonizer, just because I like to give them that one shot that can have a lot of threat, so the're not completely ignorable.
Khymerae are essentially faster wyches that don't get drugs or traits. whatever you'd use a wych for, you can use a khymera for. Personally the beasts don't really excite me in the new book, theyre not that bad but they're not really anthing special particularly Razorwing Flocks. Khymerae I'd run in sufficient numbers to overwhelm a 1W chaff unit, and use them as either chaff clearing or a blocker. They're cheap, which is nice.
Clawed Fiends id run solo and task with holding primary objectives. Tough enough that they can't be simply removed by incidental firepower, cheap enough that you're not giving up much to have them hanging back and not fighting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/04 16:30:09
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
MSU wyches are absolutely useful, but you need to pick your targets and your fights. You cant just sling them into a 10-man Intercessor squad alone and expect them to carry the day.
Venoms...are okay. They're overcosted for what they do, and run into serious competition from the very aggressively priced Raider. For non-bleeding edge play though, you're probably fine. Like the wyches though, you're going to want a plan for them, and try to setup your list to support that plan.
But what do you think about Venoms instead of Raiders?
6 shots at 3D apiece is kinda sassy, innit?
Or, is Poison Tongue the only way to go with venoms?
People are afraid of the 1d3 mortal wounds for a each weapon rolling a 1 to wound for splinter cannons on the venom. It sounds nice but the venom only has 6 wounds and you're getting hot at least once per venom shooting in a phase. If it had a 5+ fnp like talos do then it wouldn't be quite so scary but considering your wracks are probably riding in the back it'd be a ridiculously dangerous endeavour.
I only played 1 game with the new 9th ed dark eldar codex so I'm no expert. Venoms are ok for the -1 ap. For my only game with 9th I used enhanced sensory organs for the boost. It's probably not worth it but I figured anything with power armor or better in cover would need the extra -1 ap as well as something that negated cover saves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 02:38:59
@thread: Looking at the RealSpaceRaider detachment rule, I understand that the only those able to get the obsession rules/relic that has that <obssesion>. What I'm not super duper clear, and I think I'm right, that by virtue of this RSR (and not other detachment) I'm locked out of obssession specific strategems. Right?
Sidebar: I dunno why, but I find massed Clawed Fiends in a RSR detachment (plus BH archon) intriguing:
1-6 M10' S5 T5 5A 4W model with claws being -2AP 2D that gains the Power from Pain ability? Almost a poor-man Grotesques that can be cheaply spammed.
FWIW: I also pay demon armies, and I've been digging big, multiple Spawn units. They provide distractions, buffer and mission objectives. I think clawed fiend in RSR w/ BH Archon can fill the role admirably. Thought?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 01:04:51
Here's some rationale with the construction of this list and please comment if my rules are wrong or strategy is whacked.
9 Dark Lance shots, that eachcan be re-rolled for any misses (BH Obsession). Each kabal DL-Raider will have 2 units of Warriors where each unit has a Blaster. So, they become a "mini-me" Ravager with obj secured troops that can also dish out some poison shots.
6 Ravager DL shots, 2 of which can be re-rolled for any misses (BH Obsession).
Another way to look at this, is that I have 11 DL with rerolls to hit doing potentially 44-68 total wound damage. I know some of these wounds would be lost on some infantry units, but against elite units like a big block of blade guard, on average that's 5-6 dead blade guard (assuming inv is 4++). This isn't including 5 non-rerollable DL shots.
9 Disintegrator shots, 1 of which can be re-rolled for any misses (BH Obession).
Since my "mini-me" ravagers-like-raiders need to be within 18" of the target due to the 2x 18" ranged blasters in the warrior squads. I figured, adding PGL to the Raider and 2 warrior squad is intriguing. That's 3D3 blast shots for potential mortal wounds for "only" 15 points. Yeah, leadership can be high for some armies but I think its worth trying it for 15pts in this setup (Raider + 2x warrior squad). I put Grisly Trophies, -2 Ld, on the two Venoms (Incubi/Drazer's ride) and the Wych's Raider to help with the PGL shots. So, 3 vehicles who's only job is to get close to enemy to deliver payloads, all the while helping the PGL's shots.
All in all, a total 10d3 PGL shots in this army.
9 Disintegrators shots, sadly only one can be re-rolled, but I intend to keep the Writ Archon close by for reroll 1s of hit/wounds.
Obviously the Drazer + 2x Incubi squad + Succubus + Bloodbride jobs is to engage.
The Clawed fiend + beastmaster is on backline objective duty or if I feel the Ravagers can hold the objective, then their job is to distract.
Thoughts?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/09 20:33:02
Well, Drukhari seems to perform well in the tournament scene atm.
As can be seen in 40states.com, Drukhari dominates the top tables.
Do this army lists at the top tables provide some general insight into the strengths of Drukhari?
I'm too busy these days so that I leave the answer to the community. But seems interesting to know.
A complete analysis of the Drukhari lists at the top tables would be welcome, but I cannot give any credits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 13:01:09
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Looked at https://www.40kstats.com/ for the first time, saw GSC has a 62% win rate and closed the tab. They are not counting a large amount of the events it seems. DE lots a lot of events this weekend and no one is talking about that, why?
But thats another topic I can rant about for hours, so lets move on.
Your List looks fine for a Kabal list, Kabals thought, Im not sure if BH or OR is better yet, both gets a free re-roll but OR gets better range, BH has the better other things like stratagem WL trait, etc... it just depends if you value range more.
Just played a game again with my DG opponent with my kabal listed above.
I think Obsidian Rose would work best for me than Black Heart. I found that if I had that extra 6" my boats would've survived a little better at range. Plus, I'd have to think that the free rerolls at the wound stage is a bit better than rerolls at the to-hit stage.
whembly wrote: Just played a game again with my DG opponent with my kabal listed above.
I think Obsidian Rose would work best for me than Black Heart. I found that if I had that extra 6" my boats would've survived a little better at range. Plus, I'd have to think that the free rerolls at the wound stage is a bit better than rerolls at the to-hit stage.
Exactly. Keep in mind anything that isn't at least 24" away will likely be charged or shot at by lots of close ranged weapons. Also if you're wielding anti tank you may want more room than 24" due to infantry bubble wrapping vehicles. This is why I like dark lances but I'm sure people still swear by dark technomancers disintegrator raiders.
Interestingly enough I'm finding transport and vehicle spam my best 8th ed build and it helps with durability but maybe other things can be useful here. I feel like splinter cannon range for venoms, raiders getting tougher and splinter racks and other boosts will make this build still effective.
I don't know enough about large amounts of melee units outside of grotesques but I'd say we are ok but not great at melee. This may have changed with 9th however.
Most of our infantry squished easily in 8th (outside of covens mostly but they tended to be more shields than dedicated killy units) so I tend to think about cost effectiveness and likelihood of being squished too quickly. The main issue being we lacked the cannon part of being glass cannons with our 8th ed codex but 9th has us hitting harder (except with shredders and blasters sadly for some reason).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/14 00:00:30
whembly wrote: Just played a game again with my DG opponent with my kabal listed above.
I think Obsidian Rose would work best for me than Black Heart. I found that if I had that extra 6" my boats would've survived a little better at range. Plus, I'd have to think that the free rerolls at the wound stage is a bit better than rerolls at the to-hit stage.
Exactly. Keep in mind anything that isn't at least 24" away will likely be charged or shot at by lots of close ranged weapons.
Interestingly enough I'm finding transport and vehicle spam my best 8th ed build and it helps with durability but maybe other things can be useful here. I feel like splinter cannon range for venoms, raiders getting tougher and splinter racks and other boosts will make this build still effective.
I don't know enough about large amounts of melee units outside of grotesques but I'd say we are ok but not great at melee. This may have changed with 9th however.
Most of our infantry squished easily in 8th (outside of covens mostly but they tended to be more shields than dedicated killy units) so I tend to think about cost effectiveness and likelihood of being squished too quickly. The main issue being we lacked the cannon part of being glass cannons with our 8th ed codex but 9th has us hitting harder (except with shredders and blasters sadly for some reason).
Our melee hits really, really HARD. But, still very much a glass cannon. (outside of covens of course)
Drazer, Succabus, Wyches and Incubi(s) all hit hard, but all are squishy when a good melee attacker is able to respond. The key is to wipe them out. Then, you're out in the open, but it forces your opponent to pick and choose: Do I keep shooting at your boats? Or, do I shoot at the squishy targets moving to assault my units? DE works best by over saturating targets on the table.
Faq'd the interaction with competitive edge and razorflails (and all such interactions on the future with extra attacks and weapons/rules that make multiple hit rolls per attack)
no more multiple hit rolls on generated attacks
"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost"
Page 65 - Dark Technomancers
Change the first sentence to:‘Each time a unit with this Obsession is selected to shoot, you can choose to enhance any or all of the ranged weapons models in that unit are equipped with (liquifier guns and twin liquifier guns can never be enhanced).’
DT uber-liquefiers gone as well, thankfully so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/03 10:30:52
Yup, the eggregious stuff got nuked from orbit, but the rest of the Codex went relatively untouched. Still a little irked that Venoms didn't see some small tweaks downward to further differentiate them from Raiders, but it is what it is.
Be interesting to see what the post-FAQ armies start looking like. I think the RSR might be back on the menu now for lists that don't want to double-dip into Bloodbrides or Trueborn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/03 11:51:14
I was expecting a 10pt drop on venoms, but considering how well Drukhari are doing in tournament, a 10pt increase in raiders amounts to much the same thing.
MrPieChee wrote: I was expecting a 10pt drop on venoms, but considering how well Drukhari are doing in tournament, a 10pt increase in raiders amounts to much the same thing.
Not really, you want Raiders b.c of the 10 slots, 10 man Wyches, 5 kabals to support Incubi when it dies (and they do die contrary to popular belief) and they are toughness even without the -1 to be hit, and you can give them -1 to be hit as well.
Also Venoms don't really have a large spot when you take Incubi, Hellions, Succubi, etc...
With that said you can still make use out of them, just still not really worth the points. Players would rather take Incubi, wyches, hellions to take and hold objectives, range anti-infantry with so few shots is... meh in an objective base game.
Has anyone tried a small cadre of Dark Creed units with that -1 Ld debuff obsession?
You can kit out a couple of raiders, with just 5-man wracks and equip the raiders with grisly trophies for total of -3 Ld within 3".
Then, take a Black Heart or Obsidian Rose detachment and cram as many Raiders with 2 units of warriors and equip the sybarites with Phantasm Grenade Launchers (PGL). Then add a PGL on the raiders.
That's 3d3 PGL shots at, potentially a unit debuffed at -3...
I'm I insane thinking that's a lot of mortal wounds???
We could easily field 4 Raiders with this setup, not to mention the 2 Dark Creed Raiders also equipped PGL.
I have, it didn't do much. If you take Grisly Trophies you save points and that extra -1 doesn't really make or break it. I either was still needing an 8+ or a 4+ even with -3, so the -2 didn't stop the high LD's or LD's with buffs and it make it moot against lower LD's as well. EDIT: B.c you need to roll higher to, so LD 9 and 10 it didn't seem to matter you have to roll higher than average even with -3.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/04 08:47:13
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
