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Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





As far as I see though, lists are not skewing toward anti MEQ.

I'll use examples of pre nerf because I still don't have a clear picture of the post data slate meta.

Freebooterz: Anti MEQ in in the form of squigbuggies and that's it. Whazbomma and scrapjects are anti tank. Dakkajets are anti chaff.

Greyknights: All those stormbolters are anti chaff. Dknights are played both with psilancers which are anti chaff and psycanons which are anti MEQ. Infantry melee attacks are anti MEQ.

Admech: Stratoraptors are anti tank. Rangers are anti chaff. Sicarans are a general purpose antichaff/anti MEQ. Chickens are played only as AT and never seen in the anti MEQ configuration.

Sisters: Repentia are anti MEQ. Zehprim are again a general purpose anti chaff/anti MEQ. All the melta girls are AT. Have you ever seen a sister with an heavy bolter for anti MEQ role? Me neither.

Tyranids: HG are anti MEQ. Stealers are anti chaff. Big FW bugs are anti tank

Drukhari: Whytches are anti chaff. Disintegrators are nowhere to be seen, and instead they load all possible dark lances for AT. The only real anti MEQ they have are Incubi and one Succubus build.

Now obviously, many of the anti chaff or anti AT I listed, will work decently against MEQs too. That's normal, they are a profile which stands between chaff and tanks, so they get caught in the crossfire. The actual amount of dedicated anti MEQ units in lists, is actually fairly reasonable.

There also a few stratagems and buffs which can turn anti chaff weapons into decent anti MEQ weapons. But again, that's not a skew in list building, that's just how the game is made.

If you look at lists, the real profile which gets spammed above everything else, is the single damage high AP weapon, since it is currently a good weapon against chaff and MEQ, and a very good weapon against the -1D profiles. But again, that is not an anti MEQ weapon. It is a good general purpose weapon.

   
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The dark behind the eyes.

Spoletta wrote:
As far as I see though, lists are not skewing toward anti MEQ.


I'm not going to go through all of them but I think your examples aren't really proving what you think they're proving.


Spoletta wrote:

Greyknights: All those stormbolters are anti chaff. Dknights are played both with psilancers which are anti chaff and psycanons which are anti MEQ. Infantry melee attacks are anti MEQ.


I agree that stormbolters are anti-chaff, but unless I'm mistaken you can't just replace them all with other, better weapons.

So if you're tailoring against MEQ, your options are 'take some anti-chaff anyway because it's literally standard on all your units' or 'play a different army'.

What's more, you give the example of Dreadknights taking Psilencers as well as Psycannons, yet ignore the fact that Dreadknights can only take a single Psycannon each. So if they want an extra ranged weapon, it's that or a flamer (which doesn't seem to be any better against MEQ).


Spoletta wrote:
Tyranids: HG are anti MEQ. Stealers are anti chaff. Big FW bugs are anti tank


Calling stealers anti-chaff seems disingenuous. They've got S4 AP-1 attacks that are AP-4 on a 6 to wound.

Yes, they're not the absolute best at killing Marines, but what are we comparing them to? Do you think the Tyranid player would have an easier time killing MEQ if he instead took termagants, homogants or rippers for his troops?


Spoletta wrote:

Drukhari: Whytches are anti chaff. Disintegrators are nowhere to be seen, and instead they load all possible dark lances for AT. The only real anti MEQ they have are Incubi and one Succubus build.


Again, you call Wyches anti-chaff and ignore that DE players have all but abandoned Warriors - which are the *actual* anti-chaff units as, unlike Wyches, they get no AP on their weapons.

As with Genestealers, Wyches aren't ideal against Marines, but they're still a damn sight better than Warriors.

Further, D2 factors heavily into DE lists and you see this not just with Incubi and Succubi but also with units like Hellions, Talos and Grotesques (not to mention Liquifier Guns before DT was nerfed).

Incidentally, yes, Dark Lances are currently used instead of Disintegrators, and that's because other DE anti-tank weapons have not kept pace (Blasters, Blast Pistols etc. are still D1d6, rather than the Dark Lance's D3+3). Also, with stuff like -1D Dreadnoughts to watch out for, Disintegrators can't be relied upon to double as anti-vehicle firepower anymore.


My point is, not every army has perfect anti-MEQ options in every single slot. So especially when it comes to essentials like troops, you can't expect every single unit to be wielding Plasma-equivalent weapons as the benchmark for whether a army is tailored against MEQ or not.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


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"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


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 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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 fraser1191 wrote:

What changes when marines go to W1? I'd wager nothing. As for me, they'd go back on the shelves because they'd most likely be unplayable unless you take some skew list that doesn't have a hint of fluff behind it.

The prevalence of high ap weapons won't just disappear, as you yourself say marines are the most popular faction. So why would they change tactics? Nothing would change unless everything changes from grot to knight.

I can't speak for all marine players, but all I want to do is line up my 30 odd marines mixed with vehicles and have a fair game against my opponent. W1 marines didn't give me that.


What changes? More models in a host of armies become relevant and useful/playable. Why take a shoota boy which takes 18 turns to kill 1 Marine at 2wounds when I can take a choppa boy who kills a Marine in CC every 2 turns(4 phases). Why take big shootas on anything which take 9 turns to kill 1 Marine (at normal range) when I can instead take a Rokkit which kills a Marine every 2.7 turns, and can also be useful against Tanks.

You are a victim of your armies success, and in that I mean Popularity. I will ALWAYS list tailor at tournaments to play against Marines because its a rare event where Marines don't make up at least 1/3rd of the player base, and if you lump in similar profiled armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons etc, its a lot more than 1/3rd.

Spoletta wrote:
Having a few anti MEQ weapons in your list isn't skewing or tailoring.
The medium/heavy infantry profile is everywhere in the game, not only on SM. If you don't prepare for them, then it is like making a list without any form of AT.

Correct. And as I just mentioned above, if you lump in all those armies together due to their very similar defensive profiles, its closer to 50%+ of the playerbase if not more.

Spoletta wrote:
As far as I see though, lists are not skewing toward anti MEQ.

I'll use examples of pre nerf because I still don't have a clear picture of the post data slate meta.

Freebooterz: Anti MEQ in in the form of squigbuggies and that's it. Whazbomma and scrapjects are anti tank. Dakkajets are anti chaff.

Now obviously, many of the anti chaff or anti AT I listed, will work decently against MEQs too. That's normal, they are a profile which stands between chaff and tanks, so they get caught in the crossfire. The actual amount of dedicated anti MEQ units in lists, is actually fairly reasonable.

There also a few stratagems and buffs which can turn anti chaff weapons into decent anti MEQ weapons. But again, that's not a skew in list building, that's just how the game is made.

If you look at lists, the real profile which gets spammed above everything else, is the single damage high AP weapon, since it is currently a good weapon against chaff and MEQ, and a very good weapon against the -1D profiles. But again, that is not an anti MEQ weapon. It is a good general purpose weapon.


I'm highlighting orkz because...well, its the only army I play

Squigbuggies are purpose built to feth up Marines. The Whazbom is also great at killing Marines. The Tellyport Mega Blasta is 7 shots on average for 3.5 hits, just shy of 3 wounds and at -2 its basically 2 dead Marines a turn just from that. Smasha gun likely aces another Marine, and the 2 Supa Shootas average 1 more dead Marine. So it likely kills 4 Marines a turn without any buffs at all. Same with the dakkajet, unbuffed its 36 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds and 4dmg to a Marine for 2 dead Marines, and it costs about half as much as the Wazbom. Scrapjet...its purpose built to target everything. On a normal turn that Scrapjet is killing 1.29 Marines from its Rokkitz and another 0.92 from its Big shootas. But the truly horrific dmg to Marines...hell, to everyone against that Freeboota list is when it is buffed. During a SpeedWaaagh turn...also known as Turn 1, that Wazbom goes from killing 4ish Marines to 5.8ish, the Dakkajet meanwhile kills 4.6, and the Scrapjet? it goes from killing 2.21 Marines to 4.43. Scrapjet is 90pts, its killing almost exactly 90pts during a Speedwaaagh and when buffed with freeboota proc.

The reason those units were so popular is specifically because they are multi-role. A wazbom can kill about 50% of its cost in Marines in 1 turn OR it can do some hefty dmg to a heavy vehicle with its S9 and S8 weapons. The Dakkajet can slaughter Marines or just as easily clean out light infantry with relative ease. The scrapjet is a jack of all trades. its rokkitz can shred elite infantry and heavy vehicles while its Bigshootas can go after light infantry and when buffed can even inflict some significant dmg to Marines.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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As I already said in my post, I know that Wytches, Whazbommas and the like can perfectly kill marines.

But as I said that's because marines suffer not only from anti MEQ, but also against anti chaff and anti vehicle. If I wanted to skew against MEQ I would bring different stuff.
The fact that people bring weapons that are more broadly useful, speaks for the fact that MEQs are not what you are worried about. Especially now that the SM profile has mostly disappeared from competitive play.

The only ones left are GK, and usually the problem against them is not in killing the infantry in LoS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/24 15:21:35


 
   
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personally I like that GW showed they are willing to play with ways other than armor saves to make units more different. the loss of initiative ( i think this was a good change) to make armies different and choice more impactful. 2 wounds on a toughness 4 with a 3+ is a reasonably durable platform that can still be dealt with. orks going to T5 was also good in that its a way of showing them shrugging off what to other species would be mortal wounds which in the fluff is the case (could also have done with a inbuilt feel no pain thing like armywide 6+++ but alas that did not happen and ork infantry are kind of overcostedly bad now). I am hoping custodes now get more wounds and maybe even a higher toughness for some units like their allarus terminators as well too. Each army should feel significantly different and for the last few editions they have trended more samesies so welcome the differentiations to factions.

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I feel its a very boring drum to beat these days - but surely the issue demonstrated by the mathhammer above is just that most things are effective against most things these days. Arguably this has been taken to achieve balance - but the result is that you don't really have to specialise and in turn this is why you get complaints that everything's fallen over by the end of turn 2 unless the table is neatly compartmentalized with LOS-blocking terrain.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
As I already said in my post, I know that Wytches, Whazbommas and the like can perfectly kill marines.

But as I said that's because marines suffer not only from anti MEQ, but also against anti chaff and anti vehicle. If I wanted to skew against MEQ I would bring different stuff.
The fact that people bring weapons that are more broadly useful, speaks for the fact that MEQs are not what you are worried about. Especially now that the SM profile has mostly disappeared from competitive play.

The only ones left are GK, and usually the problem against them is not in killing the infantry in LoS.


From a competitive stand point it's not marines people are worried about, they're the bulk of the herd in the middle that people know they have to beat but not what will win the event. The tools used to melt marines aren't by default good against the top flight armies, but the stuff that is good against the top flight armies generally aren't horrendous against marines conversely.
   
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Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
As I already said in my post, I know that Wytches, Whazbommas and the like can perfectly kill marines.

But as I said that's because marines suffer not only from anti MEQ, but also against anti chaff and anti vehicle. If I wanted to skew against MEQ I would bring different stuff.
The fact that people bring weapons that are more broadly useful, speaks for the fact that MEQs are not what you are worried about. Especially now that the SM profile has mostly disappeared from competitive play.

The only ones left are GK, and usually the problem against them is not in killing the infantry in LoS.


From a competitive stand point it's not marines people are worried about, they're the bulk of the herd in the middle that people know they have to beat but not what will win the event. The tools used to melt marines aren't by default good against the top flight armies, but the stuff that is good against the top flight armies generally aren't horrendous against marines conversely.


I think part of that equation was GW's decision to move away from hordes being really viable. mass low save low to medium toughness armies like Tyranids, Orks, and Chaos demons had their horde versions nerfed and brought down with mechanics making them uncomperative. instead its a T3/4 3/4+ armor meta (in the case of Drukari witches 4++ in melee but 6+ armor)

On the other end of the spectrum from hordes most Heavy vehicles are pretty overpriced. Landraiders, Battlewagons, Forgefiends, Fireprisms etc. are now generally too expensive points wise to consider taking. So people bring light armor vehicles mostly instead of heavier so most people see the meta and no reason to bring out the heavy low shot guns liek lascannons or bright lances.

A lot of the middling weapons that deal well with medium to heavy armor infantry also can handle light armor. so its a bad time for power armor armies. That said I think with the buffs to Leman Russ battle tanks and the changes to Imperial knights we may see a shakeup in that meta. Its a bit too early to tell though maybe in another month or so to see the affect on tournament lists just in time for hopefully the GSC and Custodes books to shake things up.

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 Blackie wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Having a few anti MEQ weapons in your list isn't skewing or tailoring.

The medium/heavy infantry profile is everywhere in the game, not only on SM. If you don't prepare for them, then it is like making a list without any form of AT.



True, but bringing lots of anti meq weapons and little anti cheap chaff and little anti tank surely is. Most of the SM armies just run footslogging/jump pack/biker multi-wound models.


maybe this has more to do with the fact that weve had a huge power spike for basically any army getting a 9e codex outside of space marine 2.0dex bs which was more of a side-grade, and in that time we've had...two? One? one and a half? armies that include any GEQ-profile infantry units, so people dont really have to prepare for them.

Its almost like GSC, Guard, nids (outside of busted FW super-monsters and specifically hive guard), Eldar, Tau, etc have all been just sitting around in the dumpster while GW releases 9 power armor codexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
As I already said in my post, I know that Wytches, Whazbommas and the like can perfectly kill marines.

But as I said that's because marines suffer not only from anti MEQ, but also against anti chaff and anti vehicle. If I wanted to skew against MEQ I would bring different stuff.
The fact that people bring weapons that are more broadly useful, speaks for the fact that MEQs are not what you are worried about. Especially now that the SM profile has mostly disappeared from competitive play.

The only ones left are GK, and usually the problem against them is not in killing the infantry in LoS.


From a competitive stand point it's not marines people are worried about, they're the bulk of the herd in the middle that people know they have to beat but not what will win the event. The tools used to melt marines aren't by default good against the top flight armies, but the stuff that is good against the top flight armies generally aren't horrendous against marines conversely.


I think part of that equation was GW's decision to move away from hordes being really viable. mass low save low to medium toughness armies like Tyranids, Orks, and Chaos demons had their horde versions nerfed and brought down with mechanics making them uncomperative. instead its a T3/4 3/4+ armor meta (in the case of Drukari witches 4++ in melee but 6+ armor)

On the other end of the spectrum from hordes most Heavy vehicles are pretty overpriced. Landraiders, Battlewagons, Forgefiends, Fireprisms etc. are now generally too expensive points wise to consider taking. So people bring light armor vehicles mostly instead of heavier so most people see the meta and no reason to bring out the heavy low shot guns liek lascannons or bright lances.

A lot of the middling weapons that deal well with medium to heavy armor infantry also can handle light armor. so its a bad time for power armor armies. That said I think with the buffs to Leman Russ battle tanks and the changes to Imperial knights we may see a shakeup in that meta. Its a bit too early to tell though maybe in another month or so to see the affect on tournament lists just in time for hopefully the GSC and Custodes books to shake things up.


^^^^^this edition appears to be a 'race to the middle' edition much like 7e where spammed bikes, heavy infantry stars and other forms of super-buffed elite units dominated and cheap units couldnt compete while big units would just get dunked on super hard by the massive buffed up star lists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/24 22:36:31


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 vipoid wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
man I am never disappointed when I unhide a unit post.
"Tell me you've got someone on ignore without telling me you've got someone on ignore."


He mentioned he ignored me in the very thread he did it in because he didn't like that I preferred 4th instead of 5th or something after I asked him his opinion on how something was in 4th.

I forget the details


Don't feel bad, I think by now I'm on almost everyone's ignore list or one reason or other.

I'm basically just a ghost at this point.

To anyone who hasn't yet ignored me: Wooooooooooo



I don't have you ignored, rejoice I can enjoy each delicious written word as they are placed into a thread. Mmmmm writing.
   
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I don't have vipod on ignore either because despite me almost never agreeing with them, they actually use arguments to back up their opinion and don't derail every other thread.

I mostly use the ignore function to remind me to not reply to certain people.

Earth is not flat
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I also don’t have on my ignore list.

I think it’s interesting reading though, it seems like a lot of players are happy with marines negating out a huge amount of infantry.

Tougher, out damage, able to specialise to any type and now even out range a lot of there counterparts.

On top they are probably one of the easiest army to play from mechanics sense. And a huge part of any meta, so are very overbearing within them.

It’s really just seems like such poor design out of GW, and Chaos marines seem left out of so much of that design to add spiky !
   
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Vigo. Spain.

The problem with marines stats is that they don't pay for them.

I mean, look at Custodes. It doesn't matter how their basic infantry is basically better than all other armies elite infantry because they actually pay for those stats. I have never seen someone come and say "Man it sucks that your 3 custodian guards fought agaisnt my 30 hormagants and won with one and a half custodian guard alive" because those two squads cost basically the same in points and it took like 5 fight phases for the combat to resolve.

If the upgrade of marine stats came with appropiate point costs in relation to the other armies, you would not need to make all other factions "hordes", just marines more elite.

But we can see how even as cheap as they are basic marines aren't used because they are nearly useless. That speaks more about the state of the game and less about the power relations thematically and mathematically of different infantries in the game, of course, but is something to keep in mind nonetheless.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

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 Galas wrote:
The problem with marines stats is that they don't pay for them.
~~~~~

But we can see how even as cheap as they are basic marines aren't used because they are nearly useless..


So it's not really a problem that they haven't payed for thier stats
   
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Italy

 Galas wrote:


But we can see how even as cheap as they are basic marines aren't used because they are nearly useless. That speaks more about the state of the game and less about the power relations thematically and mathematically of different infantries in the game, of course, but is something to keep in mind nonetheless.


That's because T5 3W infantries are much better and SM can bring a lot of those, but basic marines are far from being bad. As always in the recent history of 40k most of the SM stuff that is considered underwhelming in reality isn't bad at all, it simply suffers from internal competition.

 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
That's because T5 3W infantries are much better and SM can bring a lot of those, but basic marines are far from being bad. As always in the recent history of 40k most of the SM stuff that is considered underwhelming in reality isn't bad at all, it simply suffers from internal competition.
You are talking about Gravis, right? They aren't used in tournaments either, from what I can tell. No Captains, no Heavy Intercessor, no Eradicators, maybe a unit of Plasma Inceptors, but they are stupidly expensive.

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The basic issue as I see it is that GW have altered the stat lines of units, but they keep altering the weapon stats too so you end up back where you start.

Yes, a Marine is now more resilient versus any basic 1 damage attack. But then about half the weapons on the table seem to have 2 damage now and/or S5+ and a bunch of AP.

Hence the need for Marines to operate as a 2+/4++ faction.
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:

What changes when marines go to W1? I'd wager nothing. As for me, they'd go back on the shelves because they'd most likely be unplayable unless you take some skew list that doesn't have a hint of fluff behind it.

The prevalence of high ap weapons won't just disappear, as you yourself say marines are the most popular faction. So why would they change tactics? Nothing would change unless everything changes from grot to knight.

I can't speak for all marine players, but all I want to do is line up my 30 odd marines mixed with vehicles and have a fair game against my opponent. W1 marines didn't give me that.


What changes? More models in a host of armies become relevant and useful/playable. Why take a shoota boy which takes 18 turns to kill 1 Marine at 2wounds when I can take a choppa boy who kills a Marine in CC every 2 turns(4 phases). Why take big shootas on anything which take 9 turns to kill 1 Marine (at normal range) when I can instead take a Rokkit which kills a Marine every 2.7 turns, and can also be useful against Tanks.

You are a victim of your armies success, and in that I mean Popularity. I will ALWAYS list tailor at tournaments to play against Marines because its a rare event where Marines don't make up at least 1/3rd of the player base, and if you lump in similar profiled armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons etc, its a lot more than 1/3rd.


That's kind of my point.

If shootas were better than choppas you'd list tailor and pick shootas over choppas. Viability goes out the window when you actively choose to tailer against MEQ profiles.

Even if a faction that's not marines is dominating the meta you still probably have better odds of placing better if you tailer against marines due to their popularity. That's why I said nothing would really change unless everything did.
   
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 fraser1191 wrote:

Viability goes out the window when you actively choose to tailer against MEQ profiles.



If that's a problem there are only two solutions:

1) Make marines the absolute worst army in the game so no one will tailor against them no matter how frequent they show up
2) Buy and play other armies

Being a marine player has certainly more upsides than downsides: it's a faction that is always updated, even multiple times in the same edition, it will always get a lot of new releases and it's one of the cheapest factions considering it's an elite army and always part of starter sets. 2nd hand market is flooded with marines as well. They're also the easiest army to play. Most of the players from other factions would certainly accept being tailored against pretty often if they get this kind of "support" from GW in return.

 
   
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I'd argue a related issue is the move to make Vehicles use Toughness values, and then make the to-wound chart so broad in its range. Post 8th is a paradigm where mid strength, high rate of fire weapons happen to be very effective against vehicles in addition to being more effective against Marines under the new AP paradigm. If Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles demanded different weapons to engage them, players would be more pressured to choose options other than the mid-strength, high ROF weapons.

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Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Wasn't that already the case in 6e and/or 7e after the advent of Hull Points? I know those weapons usually didn't have the AP to directly negate MEQ armor, but if you're already spamming them to critfish against vehicles...
   
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 waefre_1 wrote:
Wasn't that already the case in 6e and/or 7e after the advent of Hull Points? I know those weapons usually didn't have the AP to directly negate MEQ armor, but if you're already spamming them to critfish against vehicles...
Well I'm reasonably certain nobody holds 6th-7th as any sort of pinnacle of 40k

As Marines the issue I see is that a Grav Cannon, in particular, is better than a HB against hordes (more shots), great against Elites (multishot high AP), and better against vehicles than a Lascannon (high ROF, multi-damage, high AP). Why take anything else? Only the Multimelta has a superior bracket of target.

But if S5 only wounded T7-8 on a 6 like previous editions, you cut out some targets. Previously, a Pred could only even be hurt by a S7 or higher weapon from the front. That changes the nature of the tools and tactics required.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
Wasn't that already the case in 6e and/or 7e after the advent of Hull Points? I know those weapons usually didn't have the AP to directly negate MEQ armor, but if you're already spamming them to critfish against vehicles...
Well I'm reasonably certain nobody holds 6th-7th as any sort of pinnacle of 40k

As Marines the issue I see is that a Grav Cannon, in particular, is better than a HB against hordes (more shots), great against Elites (multishot high AP), and better against vehicles than a Lascannon (high ROF, multi-damage, high AP). Why take anything else? Only the Multimelta has a superior bracket of target.

But if S5 only wounded T7-8 on a 6 like previous editions, you cut out some targets. Previously, a Pred could only even be hurt by a S7 or higher weapon from the front. That changes the nature of the tools and tactics required.


Said Grav cannon is very bad against a lot of targets though. Namely DG, Dreadnaughts, Artist of flesh, ramshackle or any of the very common -1D targets.

2D weapons are high reward high risk weapons in 9th. They tend to have a good efficency compared to the points, but can run into some very hard counters.
   
Made in us
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 Galas wrote:
The problem with marines stats is that they don't pay for them.

I mean, look at Custodes. It doesn't matter how their basic infantry is basically better than all other armies elite infantry because they actually pay for those stats. I have never seen someone come and say "Man it sucks that your 3 custodian guards fought agaisnt my 30 hormagants and won with one and a half custodian guard alive" because those two squads cost basically the same in points and it took like 5 fight phases for the combat to resolve.

If the upgrade of marine stats came with appropiate point costs in relation to the other armies, you would not need to make all other factions "hordes", just marines more elite.

But we can see how even as cheap as they are basic marines aren't used because they are nearly useless. That speaks more about the state of the game and less about the power relations thematically and mathematically of different infantries in the game, of course, but is something to keep in mind nonetheless.



I think this post does kind of touch on the issue. At first, 2 wound marines felt over whelming, too good, now it's just the norm and all the tools are out there to deal with them. Two wounds feels absurd, until you look at how much damage is being tossed around, the kind of shot volleys that can rain down upon them, two wounds just doesn't feel all that amazingly helpful. I doubt as more updated armies come out that won't feel even worse for them. Which will lead to of course probably the inevitable second printing of a marine book to dial them over the top, or PA style books to buff everyone through the roof before edition change is inevitable.

Now I'm not saying marines are the super weak, I've never felt marines were weak, even when they were kinda weak, but aside from some specialist units, their infantry aren't what is rocking anyone's socks off, even if they are better than many other peoples infantry. Which is kind of an odd thing to feel when the marines as long as I played them were kind of supposed to find their strength in their infantry at least by ideal if not in game rules reflecting it.

Which for good or bad the time of the 5th ed space wolf book comes to mind. You had some cheesy tricks but the core Grey hunter squad felt great, too good ? Probably, but it was one of those times that the core troop felt amazing for a space marine faction. They even took up most of my points in a list and something about that felt really good. Better than all the thunder wolves, or wulfen, etc, etc, just relying on the troops to get it done felt good. How do GW get there with marines but avoid player rage ? Of that I am not sure.
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





Marines are too common among the playerbase to be "good" (ie: as good as Marines player want them to be) while the game is in a healthy state at the same time.
Another reason is that's inevitable that other armies and TAC lists are prepared with facing MEQ profiles in mind, since Marines are so common.

Wait for CSM to receive their second wound and you'll see even more anti-MEQ weapons in lists.


 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Aenar wrote:
Marines are too common among the playerbase to be "good" (ie: as good as Marines player want them to be) while the game is in a healthy state at the same time.
Another reason is that's inevitable that other armies and TAC lists are prepared with facing MEQ profiles in mind, since Marines are so common.

Wait for CSM to receive their second wound and you'll see even more anti-MEQ weapons in lists.


Marines are currently "good", I don't think I've seen any marine players asking for buffs either, just my fellow chaos marines asking for parity.

I just want to know where the idea that marine players want to be top of the pile comes from? They're a very healthy middle of the pack I.e. fairly balanced at present.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Spoletta wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
Wasn't that already the case in 6e and/or 7e after the advent of Hull Points? I know those weapons usually didn't have the AP to directly negate MEQ armor, but if you're already spamming them to critfish against vehicles...
Well I'm reasonably certain nobody holds 6th-7th as any sort of pinnacle of 40k

As Marines the issue I see is that a Grav Cannon, in particular, is better than a HB against hordes (more shots), great against Elites (multishot high AP), and better against vehicles than a Lascannon (high ROF, multi-damage, high AP). Why take anything else? Only the Multimelta has a superior bracket of target.

But if S5 only wounded T7-8 on a 6 like previous editions, you cut out some targets. Previously, a Pred could only even be hurt by a S7 or higher weapon from the front. That changes the nature of the tools and tactics required.


Said Grav cannon is very bad against a lot of targets though. Namely DG, Dreadnaughts, Artist of flesh, ramshackle or any of the very common -1D targets.

2D weapons are high reward high risk weapons in 9th. They tend to have a good efficency compared to the points, but can run into some very hard counters.
That's really just a confirmation of my point, hehe. GW has been forced to create a new special rule for damage resistance because of the mashed target profiles resulting from post 8th to-wound chart and AP system.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Insectum7 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
Wasn't that already the case in 6e and/or 7e after the advent of Hull Points? I know those weapons usually didn't have the AP to directly negate MEQ armor, but if you're already spamming them to critfish against vehicles...
Well I'm reasonably certain nobody holds 6th-7th as any sort of pinnacle of 40k

As Marines the issue I see is that a Grav Cannon, in particular, is better than a HB against hordes (more shots), great against Elites (multishot high AP), and better against vehicles than a Lascannon (high ROF, multi-damage, high AP). Why take anything else? Only the Multimelta has a superior bracket of target.

But if S5 only wounded T7-8 on a 6 like previous editions, you cut out some targets. Previously, a Pred could only even be hurt by a S7 or higher weapon from the front. That changes the nature of the tools and tactics required.


Said Grav cannon is very bad against a lot of targets though. Namely DG, Dreadnaughts, Artist of flesh, ramshackle or any of the very common -1D targets.

2D weapons are high reward high risk weapons in 9th. They tend to have a good efficency compared to the points, but can run into some very hard counters.
That's really just a confirmation of my point, hehe. GW has been forced to create a new special rule for damage resistance because of the mashed target profiles resulting from post 8th to-wound chart and AP system.


GW creates multiple categories of special durability rules in order to make different weapons optimal vs different targets, instead of defaulting towards a race to the middle where a couple specific values of strength and a couple specific values of AP are vastly more valuable than others.

The horror. Oh man, really shows how completely imbalanced the game is now. I might have to take something other than a las-plas razorback to win games. How awful.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 the_scotsman wrote:

The horror. Oh man, really shows how completely imbalanced the game is now. I might have to take something other than a las-plas razorback to win games. How awful.


I use Las/Plas Razorbacks because that's the only model of Razorback I own.
Different turrets came along loong after I'd bought/built/painted my Razorbacks & I saw no need to buy/build/paint additional turrets.

If my opponent objects because the Las/Plas isn't even in Legends? The I just shoot the Lascannon twice.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
Wasn't that already the case in 6e and/or 7e after the advent of Hull Points? I know those weapons usually didn't have the AP to directly negate MEQ armor, but if you're already spamming them to critfish against vehicles...
Well I'm reasonably certain nobody holds 6th-7th as any sort of pinnacle of 40k

As Marines the issue I see is that a Grav Cannon, in particular, is better than a HB against hordes (more shots), great against Elites (multishot high AP), and better against vehicles than a Lascannon (high ROF, multi-damage, high AP). Why take anything else? Only the Multimelta has a superior bracket of target.

But if S5 only wounded T7-8 on a 6 like previous editions, you cut out some targets. Previously, a Pred could only even be hurt by a S7 or higher weapon from the front. That changes the nature of the tools and tactics required.


Said Grav cannon is very bad against a lot of targets though. Namely DG, Dreadnaughts, Artist of flesh, ramshackle or any of the very common -1D targets.

2D weapons are high reward high risk weapons in 9th. They tend to have a good efficency compared to the points, but can run into some very hard counters.
That's really just a confirmation of my point, hehe. GW has been forced to create a new special rule for damage resistance because of the mashed target profiles resulting from post 8th to-wound chart and AP system.


GW creates multiple categories of special durability rules in order to make different weapons optimal vs different targets, instead of defaulting towards a race to the middle where a couple specific values of strength and a couple specific values of AP are vastly more valuable than others.

The horror. Oh man, really shows how completely imbalanced the game is now. I might have to take something other than a las-plas razorback to win games. How awful.
I genuinely don't understand the point of this post. There appears to be a lot of misapplied sarcasm.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
 
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