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i was just wondering, what would be the most OP army and UP army - I think that GK are pretty OP while in every Batrep I read/watch about IG, they always lose .

Everybody says GK. I play 40k irregularly though.

Well, most people would still probably say GK is the most over powered. and I'd be inclined to agree, though i've seen some NASTY necrons and space wolves armies.

under powered is a strange question though. Each army could make a terrible unit choice if you did it so, but if you compared the "best army" they could make at any reasonable level compared to other best armies it's pretty close between Tau and SoB I would think. the SoB run out of units they can even take after too long, and their best most expensive stuff pales in comparison to other armies heavy hitters. While the Tau seem just too squishy for their price, yeah the dark/eldar are squishy too but you get more of them for the points.

GK are OP.

Tau are UP. (More like Over Costed really than UP, Im ok being squishy if I can field MORE!)

The three most OP armies according to internet "wisdom" appears to be

1: Grey Knights
2: Space Wolves
3: Imperial Guard

As Tau it can be really hard to make your points back even with the "better" units. I can't speak for SoB, as I have never even seen such an army yet, but the Tau-dex really needs at least a price-adjustment to be called decent =(

Most people will never play against a Sisters of Battle player, but they aren't half bad. Dominions are mean and Exorcists are frightening if they roll well. Faith points don't scale very well though.

GK would generally be my first choice in terms of OP armies; a dirt-cheap abundance of FW, psybolt ammo, and DEAR LORD IN HEAVEN, the warpquake garbage. Any army that has builds that can CATEGORICALLY AUTO-WIN against another codex just cannot be fairly built.

SW comes in at a distant second; yeah, they have some things that are a little cheap, what with LF capable of shooting at two targets, and the whole MSU-Razorspam going from slightly annoying sufficiently cheap, though that last one is also a product of how cheap transports are in general. Also, theres JotWW. Lame. Yet still, you CAN beat them with skill and tactics, no matter who you're playing with.

Shadox wrote:As Tau it can be really hard to make your points back even with the "better" units. I can't speak for SoB, as I have never even seen such an army yet, but the Tau-dex really needs at least a price-adjustment to be called decent =(

The sisters of battle is actually a mid-tier army, they aren't bad...

The problem is FLEXIBILITY. The units you want? Clear cut to the point that no other options are worthwhile

HQ slot, you never take a base unit, always the three SC's (why bother making one, anything you make will be more expensive and worse then the SC's, and you NEED Uriah for re-rollable faith points, as a result of this the Battle Conclave is often used as well, and very deadly in the hands of Uriah (Adds +1 attack to all units in his squad, meaning even the Crusaders are deadly!) Kyrinov is good, and Saint Celestine is a beatstick that Yarrick envies, an always 4+ power weapon attack, jump infantry, heavy flamer assault attack, 2+/4++ that can stand back up on death, With an EXCELLENT statline, and costs less than a Canoness with a combi-flamer, 4++ save, and power weapon.

Elite slot: If your lucky, you may see Sister Repentia, now that they've gotten a bit better, but that's the only one from this slot.

Troops: Battle sisters suck, but they still pack double melta (Heavy flamers are to expensive now, at double melta cost), of course they are also the only troops you can take.

Fast Attack: Most contested slot, you'll see either triple dominion, or a mix of dominion and seraphim, both good at busting things up what they need to (Dominions twin linked with flamers or melta really helps, and Seraphim are good at busting up units now that heavy flamers are less common)

Heavy: Depending on points cost, you'll either have two Retributors with heavy bolters, or just one with two Exorcists.

Grey Knights.... they are after all the ELITE of Imeprium's military. Only way to defeat them is with numbers.

Most UP right now is Tau, especially now when large number of army's prefer close combat witch is nonexistant with Tau.

I can only say that sw are the most OP army out there at the mo, i've not had the pleasure of facing the Please don't use that term as a slur on Dakka, we appreciate or want hateful and thoughtless comments like this. Reds8n knights as of yet.

Most UP army? I would have to say the Eldar, not enough anti tank weaponry (FD are the exception of course but bland and boring).

OP: Space Wolves (I face them and GK quite a bit... the SW are a much bigger challenge for me)

UP: Tau, bar none

Dakkadakka will say the Grey Knights are the most OP but I have yet to lose to a GK Army.

It really just depends on what your opponent does and how you react. I heard SW are tough but I have seen plenty of Battle reports of people beating them pretty easily.

Though by most peoples standards I also play an OP Army.

In my experience here's the list from hardest to weeniest.

1. Grey Knights
2. Space Wolves
3. IA DKoK (like the guard but MOAR)
4. Vanilla Imperial Guard
5. Necrons, tied with Dark Eldar and Blood Angels
8. Space marines
9. Orks, IA Corsair Eldar, and IA Dreadlist orks
11. Eldar and SoBs
13. Black Templars
14. Dark Angels
15. Chaos Space marines and Tyranids
17 Chaos Daemons.
18. Tau.

Kain wrote:In my experience here's the list from hardest to weeniest.

1. Grey Knights
2. Space Wolves
3. IA DKoK (like the guard but MOAR)
4. Vanilla Imperial Guard
5. Necrons, tied with Dark Eldar and Blood Angels
8. Space marines
9. Orks, IA Corsair Eldar, and IA Dreadlist orks
11. Eldar and SoBs
13. Black Templars
14. Dark Angels
15. Chaos Space marines and Tyranids
17 Chaos Daemons.
18. Tau.

Daemons are a solid mid tier army and should be right up there with Vanilla Marines, Orks, IG, Newcrons, BA's, Eldar and the like.

Actually, the only army that can auto-bone Daemons are 'Derp Knights' who were given every possible advantage you can think of, plus the kitchen sink for good measure.

im glad orks are the middle army, as it should be, anyone else find it odd that every edition of orks has been well ballanced and thought out?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Kain wrote:In my experience here's the list from hardest to weeniest.

1. Grey Knights
2. Space Wolves
3. IA DKoK (like the guard but MOAR)
4. Vanilla Imperial Guard
5. Necrons, tied with Dark Eldar and Blood Angels
8. Space marines
9. Orks, IA Corsair Eldar, and IA Dreadlist orks
11. Eldar and SoBs
13. Black Templars
14. Dark Angels
15. Chaos Space marines and Tyranids
17 Chaos Daemons.
18. Tau.

Daemons are a solid mid tier army and should be right up there with Vanilla Marines, Orks, IG, Newcrons, BA's, Eldar and the like.

Actually, the only army that can auto-bone Daemons are 'Derp Knights' who were given every possible advantage you can think of, plus the kitchen sink for good measure.

How exactly are they mid-tier?

OP: Grey Knights

UP: Dark Angels PA and Ravenwing they just aren't viable.

It seems clear to me now.

OP = GK. Is there anyway to deny it? They requite almost no thought to win. cc into something and it will die for you.

UP = Tau. I play them, and it really is hard to get anything in my list to do what I need it to at one time. example, I used around 500pts of shooting one turn, and it killed 5 ork boys. these guys were out in the open, without a truck and not big mek. just me and a 20 man squad of squishy. They did die the next turn when I got pissed and they got a pie plate from hell put on them. Killed 17

I think daemons are at least higher than tyranids.

Xeriapt wrote:I think daemons are at least higher than tyranids.

i actually agree demons are playable (except against Gk they you are just done.)

But Nids with a little luck can drive you nuts.

Ledabot wrote:

OP = GK. Is there anyway to deny it? They requite almost no thought to win. cc into something and it will die for you.

Spoken like someone who does not understand how Grey Knights work. They're a short-range shooty army, not a CC army.

I faced a really scary Daemons list the other week, and since then I've looked through their possibilities. They're far from overpowered, but they are definitely not UP

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

OP = GK. Is there anyway to deny it? They requite almost no thought to win. cc into something and it will die for you.

Spoken like someone who does not understand how Grey Knights work. They're a short-range shooty army, not a CC army.

And yet Ward insists on giving out Force Weapons for next to nothing.

As others pointed out, the army most see as an issue right now is Grey Knights. They can do a huge variety of builds and abuse every aspect of the core rules people have an issue with (e.g. wound allocation) and have a huge number of incredibly underpriced units, upgrades and abilities (e.g. 5pt psybolts for two TL'd BS4/5 Autocannons, 5pts to ignore shaken/stunned results 92% of the time, often free swaps to weapons that make them I6, etc)

Other complaints include Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Imperial Guard.

Space Wolves because they have a number of core units that have more wargear and very powerful special rules with unit and upgrade costs that are lower than much less well equipped and less capable counter parts (e.g. Grey Hunters have Bolter/Pistol/CCW with Counterattack for 15pts each where basic SM's lack the CCW and Counterattack and are 16pts each and pay more for sergeants and sergeant weapons like powerfists, Long Fangs get 6 dudes with 5 Krak missiles that can fire at 2 targets for 140pts, etc).

Blood Angels can field a stupid amount of armor, especially heavy tanks, and they're all Fast, in addition to have a very abuseable combat HQ (Mephiston) and assault marines as troops with all sorts of free DS rules and min/max ability coupled with very cheap Feel No Pain bubbles.

Imperial Guard are a bit of an odd animal, but can field an unholy number of tanks and heavy weapons relatively cheaply.

Brother Coa wrote:Grey Knights.... they are after all the ELITE of Imeprium's military. Only way to defeat them is with numbers.

More specifically, lots of shooting. They can quite handily deal with lots of enemies in CC, especially when they can throw one unit into an Ork Horde and kill half of it before anyone swings.


Being "elite" shouldn't be an excuse for being overpowered, that's why we have points costs.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

OP = GK. Is there anyway to deny it? They requite almost no thought to win. cc into something and it will die for you.

Spoken like someone who does not understand how Grey Knights work. They're a short-range shooty army, not a CC army.

And yet Ward insists on giving out Force Weapons for next to nothing.

And yet they play better with a shooty list than an assaulty list. The force weapons are there to discourage the enemy from charging and to allow them to mop up remaining enemies, not to make them focus on using them primarily.

I'm not saying that there's nothing in the Grey Knight Codex that could use some toning down, because there is, but they're not primarily a CC army. Never have been, never will be.

Xeriapt wrote:I think daemons are at least higher than tyranids.

Tyranids at least have that all important ranged anti-tank in the form of Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofexes (and in a pinch HVC units.) Daemons have Bolt of Change and the Soul Grinder whose base is so large that he'll kill himself a frustrating amount of times due to deep strike mishaps, having four options to two is better in my book.

Kain wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:I think daemons are at least higher than tyranids.

Tyranids at least have that all important ranged anti-tank in the form of Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofexes (and in a pinch HVC units.) Daemons have Bolt of Change and the Soul Grinder whose base is so large that he'll kill himself a frustrating amount of times due to deep strike mishaps, having four options to two is better in my book.

I think this is where it comes down to what kind of army you're facing. In a question like this thread is asking I'd assume we're considering tournament level play, what army is the best when trying to field their best. Most armies would be fielding large amounts of vehicles in such a situation, which would then expose Daemons' weakness and put them lower than normal.

I think this is a really subjective question. I don't particularly think any army is "overpowered" in comparison with the others. I think the power levels of the various armies are all right around the same level, and that tactical skill can counteract any amount of power level discrepancy.

That being said, I've never won a game against Tyranids. I've never even seen Tyranids lose a game. On the counter side, I've never seen Grey Knights win. (Of course, we only have a single Grey Knights player around here, so that doesn't say much.) It's all very subjective.

*** preflame note: joking somewhat here...***

Did Ward write it?

OP

BA
GK
Necrons (to a lesser degree)

Regular SM are mid-tier these days.

VS

Is it Xeno, and not an army Ward plays? UP

Tyranids
Tau

Orks are mid-tier



I am of course not entirely serious, but the trend is there...


GK is OP, by anyone but a GK player's estimation




In fact i'd say the only brutally OP army right now is the GK. The rest come in hot, medium and mild varieties:

OP: GK

Hot: DE, BA, SW, Guard

Medium: SM, BT, Orks, Daemons (if not vs GK...), Sisters, Eldar

Mild: Daemons (vs GK), Tau, CSM