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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I have a spare 135 pts in myist and decided to drop some Warp Talons in. But these guys really needed base 2 attacks or something... They seem to fit best in a World Eaters list, but I'm willing to bet if and when World Eaters get a book, the Warp talons will be missing...

I'm hoping for some kind of special Khornate jump pack unit. Red Butchers are more likely, of course.

StarHunter25 wrote:
I would LOVE base 2 warp talons. And the option for icons. *dreams of running jugger-herald with 8 talons blendering all the guardsmen*

Kharneth give autocannon havocs a go. Cheap and puts out a good amount of firepower. I've been running 2 squads with my World Eaters for a while now and they've been doing just fine. I run the champ with a combi-bolter for a few plinking shots on top of that.

FWIW if the Herald is from a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment, it’ll have an aura that does the same thing an IoW does, for free. Agreed, they were perfectly good when they could Warptime on arrival for a deep insertion ploy, but without that they’re just expensive Raptors that don’t have Melta or plasma.

Second autocannon Havocs, really useful and versatile unit

Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?

What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.

You can't think of World Eaters as punching everything all the time unfortunately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Melta Guns are terrible for Raptors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't think of World Eaters as punching everything all the time unfortunately.

Says you!

Every time I take guns I lose and every time I take no guns I win... I keep trying to make these fire support units work, but I keep shooting myself in the foot.

To be fair, I don't actually play World Eaters, they're Khorne Demonkin, but I call them World Eaters because I see them as the main force and the demon detachment as an auxiliary force attached to the main force.

 Kharneth wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't think of World Eaters as punching everything all the time unfortunately.

Every time I take guns I lose and every time I take no guns I win... I keep trying to make these fire support units work, but I keep shooting myself in the foot.

Id suggest trying to shoot the enemy. One's feet are a tempting target for anti-tank, I'll admit, but I'd try to only do this when it is tactically advantageous.

If really big axes/claws and brute strength are working as anti-tank, stick with that! A bloodthirster is way more fun than its points worth of autocannon/lascannon havovs. Especially if your not gunning for top tourney tables.

 Kharneth wrote:
Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?

What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.

Predators, Maulerfiends, Defilers, Vindicators, Havocs with anything other than Heavy Bolters, Land Raiders, allied Soul Grinders, the list goes on.

 Kharneth wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can't think of World Eaters as punching everything all the time unfortunately.

Says you!

Every time I take guns I lose and every time I take no guns I win... I keep trying to make these fire support units work, but I keep shooting myself in the foot.

To be fair, I don't actually play World Eaters, they're Khorne Demonkin, but I call them World Eaters because I see them as the main force and the demon detachment as an auxiliary force attached to the main force.

Respect. So if I was going for as much Khorne as possible, I’d do;

Daemons Batallion

Khorne Daemon Prince, Skullreaver
Nurgle Daemon Prince

30 bloodletters, banner, icon (deep strike)
30 Plaguebearers
3 Nurglings

CSM World Eaters Batallion

Kharn
Exalted Champion

9 zerkers, rhino
9 zerkers, rhino
10 zerkers, rhino

3 Obliterators

Man now you’ve got me wanting to try a zerker rhino list!

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?

What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.

Predators, Maulerfiends, Defilers, Vindicators, Havocs with anything other than Heavy Bolters, Land Raiders, allied Soul Grinders, the list goes on.

The Contemptor Dreadnought with 2 close combat weapons with underslung soulburners might be a goer; D3 shots each with each hit causing a mortal wound? Or a Leviathan Dreadnought with siege claws with underslung meltas and hellflamers would be fun and fluffy in that they bring the BURN in KILL MAIM BURN?

Their primary armament will be fists, too, so hopefully Khorne won’t object

 luke1705 wrote:


Respect. So if I was going for as much Khorne as possible, I’d do;

Daemons Batallion

Khorne Daemon Prince, Skullreaver
Nurgle Daemon Prince

30 bloodletters, banner, icon (deep strike)
30 Plaguebearers
3 Nurglings

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I feel like this is definitely NOT as much Khorne as possible. Something smells rotten....

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?

What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.

Predators, Maulerfiends, Defilers, Vindicators, Havocs with anything other than Heavy Bolters, Land Raiders, allied Soul Grinders, the list goes on.

Maulerfiend, Defiler, and Soul Grinder... so you named three. Everything else you listed just begs the question "Did you read?..."

Maulerfiends are ugly, so so ugly. I wonder if they're any good. They were mediocre last time I used them. Defiler is s***. Too few attacks with too lousy hit chances. Too many things squeezed into a model. I don't need non-assault guns because then I can't advance and this thing is slooooow. I charge on turn 2. What is the defiler supposed to do? Charge turn 4? No thanks. Soul Grinder might be better, idk.

I will look into those Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but... how will I get them into combat? I'm guessing that they're slow like other Dreadnoughts. Perhaps I could put one in a dreadclaw? That's a turn 3 charge? Shooting on turn 2? That might work, but it also my bog my down with a shooting phase! lol. Lemme look My whole army moves 12" minimum, adding a footslogger just feels like poor saturation.

Well yeah Maulerfiends are ugly. They're not meant to be pretty.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well yeah Maulerfiends are ugly. They're not meant to be pretty.

They aren't even good ugly, like Nurgle.

They're not grotesque, or scary, or anything redeeming. They're just unattractive models. They look like oversized metal puppies. I did look at them again. 150 points for 10 attacks is not, too shabby... but I just can't take a WS 4+ unit, man. I have skilled combatants! What am I, an Ork? Naw, my Blood Slaughterer is a demon engine, too, but you don't see it running around with WS 4+.

The contemptor dreadnought with soulburners is amazing, but it's so expensive! Even with just the melee weapons, I don't know if it's worth 184 points for 6 attacks :/

I think you're poo-pooing a lot of very legitimate options, especially when you're already handicapping yourself with no shooting.

Defilers are a pretty good workhorse brawler. With heavybolters and scourge, they put out a lot of lethal attacks (Str 16 fists?? Not much else can crack landraiders on 2's) and they're cheap for how hardy they are. WS4 can easily be mitigated with Daemonforge or an Apostle (which you should absolutely have if you're going pure melee). They also have smoke launchers, which lets them advance on turn 1 and start pulling off turn 2 or 3 charges. Aside from like, bikes, they're not really any slower than anything else you can field.
They're also real bullet sponges and will suck up damage like nothing else.

The thing that makes Contemptors shine is their AP-4 D4 chainfists, which will obliterate anything they touch. 6 attacks might not sound like much, but don't forget they're WS2 (and again, you should have an apostle or prince or lord nearby), which gives them a very real damage output of 24 wounds in one round.

Maulers are unfortunately sort of in the middle ground as far as combat-walkers go. They don't hit as hard as others, or as durable or cheap or fast. Bloodslaughterers are a pretty hard contender for their role.

Also, regular helbrutes can go a long way. They're cheap and punch real hard. Think of them as the "infantry" of chaos assault walkers.

The way you get all these things across the table is by having a lot of target saturation. You don't have just a contemptor or just a defiler. You have a mix of 4 or 5 barreling down the table, along with rhinos full of berserkers, all following up behind fast moving bikes or heldrake that harass as first wave.

 McGibs wrote:
I think you're poo-pooing a lot of very legitimate options, especially when you're already handicapping yourself with no shooting.

Defilers are a pretty good workhorse brawler. With heavybolters and scourge, they put out a lot of lethal attacks (Str 16 fists?? Not much else can crack landraiders on 2's) and they're cheap for how hardy they are. WS4 can easily be mitigated with Daemonforge or an Apostle (which you should absolutely have if you're going pure melee). They also have smoke launchers, which lets them advance on turn 1 and start pulling off turn 2 or 3 charges. Aside from like, bikes, they're not really any slower than anything else you can field.
They're also real bullet sponges and will suck up damage like nothing else.

The thing that makes Contemptors shine is their AP-4 D4 chainfists, which will obliterate anything they touch. 6 attacks might not sound like much, but don't forget they're WS2 (and again, you should have an apostle or prince or lord nearby), which gives them a very real damage output of 24 wounds in one round.

Maulers are unfortunately sort of in the middle ground as far as combat-walkers go. They don't hit as hard as others, or as durable or cheap or fast. Bloodslaughterers are a pretty hard contender for their role.

Also, regular helbrutes can go a long way. They're cheap and punch real hard. Think of them as the "infantry" of chaos assault walkers.

The way you get all these things across the table is by having a lot of target saturation. You don't have just a contemptor or just a defiler. You have a mix of 4 or 5 barreling down the table, along with rhinos full of berserkers, all following up behind fast moving bikes or heldrake that harass as first wave.

I only poo-pooed the shooting units and the defiler. I poo-pooed the maulerfiend mostly due to the model, but if I could find an alternative miniature to field I might be down for it. Though, I think the Blood Slaughterer is the perfect substitute as it can do pretty much the same thing (but better for a bit more points) and is a uniquely Khorne unit. Yes, I have a Dark Apostle, but it is surrounded by 24 berzerkers and my enemies aren't always crowding a single location. I don't feel like I can rely on the Defiler to get rerollable hits, but it's certainly possible. 4 S16 attacks and 3 S12 attacks with high damage. Why heavy bolters? My Bloodthirster cracks landraiders easily, but is like twice the points. Though it can get there a lot faster.

You say that the Defiler is not that much slower, but it is... I have nothing that moves less than 12" except the Slaughterer, but it gets 6" advance which more than makes up for it. I do see how it works as a damage sponge, it's very cheap for 14 t7 wounds with a 3+/5++.

Contemptor is really looking like a fun addition... I'm confused about the points, though, the chainfists go down in price when I take two of them??? I could absolutely spend 162 points on a Contemptor with 6 attacks.

I understand target saturation, but I don't get across the board by saturating my army with slow pokes! I have 3 rhinos, a demon prince, a bloodthirster, flesh hounds, a blood slaughterer, and a deep striking unit of bloodletters. Trying to replace the flesh hounds with another baddy. I have saturation in addition to extremely fast moving units. The Contemptor has 9" and the Defiler 8". Both are roughly the same points, but the Defiler is much hardier. I wonder if he'd take priority over the Bloodthirster, though. A contemptor with soulburners would be fantastic, but neither version nor the Defiler can be squeezed into my list unless I turn my demon battalion into a patrol and lose 5 CP.

It might sound like I'm being difficult, but that's just because I've heard a lot of these ideas before and they just don't fit enough. I don't consider myself handicapping my force. I bought a predator and put lascannons on it. I did this after using my obliterators. I've tried autocannon havocs. None of this firepower is doing anything and by turn 2 I have most of the enemy force in melee combat and my shooters sit there with their thumbs up their a**es. My predator sounded great on paper, but it has been nothing but a point sink in every game I've played with it, which in fairness is only two games lol.

*Edit: Actually, I might take that Helbrute...

defiler is crap... that explain why no top competitive lists ever play it, 4+ to hit is crap if you must invest apostole and/or stratagems to make it decent , is clearly is overcosted, then maybe if you like the model that's another story.

I never got why daemon engines have such terrible weapon skill when the average lesser daemon has superior weapon skill to a space marine. (Back in 5th > 7th) and equal weapon skill in 8th

Blood Slaughterer is a Daemon Engine that thankfully hits on 3+s, moves fast, and kills everything. Definitely check them out.

 Kharneth wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?

What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.

Predators, Maulerfiends, Defilers, Vindicators, Havocs with anything other than Heavy Bolters, Land Raiders, allied Soul Grinders, the list goes on.

Maulerfiend, Defiler, and Soul Grinder... so you named three. Everything else you listed just begs the question "Did you read?..."

Maulerfiends are ugly, so so ugly. I wonder if they're any good. They were mediocre last time I used them. Defiler is s***. Too few attacks with too lousy hit chances. Too many things squeezed into a model. I don't need non-assault guns because then I can't advance and this thing is slooooow. I charge on turn 2. What is the defiler supposed to do? Charge turn 4? No thanks. Soul Grinder might be better, idk.

I will look into those Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but... how will I get them into combat? I'm guessing that they're slow like other Dreadnoughts. Perhaps I could put one in a dreadclaw? That's a turn 3 charge? Shooting on turn 2? That might work, but it also my bog my down with a shooting phase! lol. Lemme look My whole army moves 12" minimum, adding a footslogger just feels like poor saturation.

Sorry, I just saw "anti-tank" and didn't realize you were only looking for MELEE anti-tank. In which case I could add the Decimator (it has fists, right?) or the Lord of Skulls, unless you consider it a monster.

Decimator has the DAEMON faction keyword, so re-right los charges near Heralds and the like. Definitely high on my WB-DG-Nurgle Daemonkin priorities.

Been looking at Deredeo for DG. HELBRUTE means it gets Legion trait of move and shoot at full BS, right? Hellfire Veil looks interesting. Giving a Poxwalker horde a 5++ could really ruin someone’s day.

Decimators do not have daemon faction keyword. Annoyingly, nothing in the imperial armour index has the daemon faction keyword, not even the daemons.
Helfire veil was also faqd to only protect units -wholy- within 6", so it's not that hot anymore.

 McGibs wrote:
Decimators do not have daemon faction keyword. Annoyingly, nothing in the imperial armour index has the daemon faction keyword, not even the daemons.
Helfire veil was also faqd to only protect units -wholy- within 6", so it's not that hot anymore.

The faction keyword has been FAQed for the imperal armour index - so this isn't correct. Well the decimator still doesn't but there are daemons in the book that have the faction keyword

Could anyone give me some advice for what to bring in a "pure" World eaters army. I would like to add a Kytan (awesome model!) And maybe a vanguard detachment of a insensate rage thirster and 3 units og blood hounds. Is zerkers and rhinos the only way to go?

 Kharneth wrote:
Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?

What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.

You know, Bikers might fit the bill! they are fast, swing chain swords from their bike, and while they have a lot of firepower, its all best at point blank range. Rapid Fire and Charge with a reroll to get in from the Icon, and world eaters for +1 attack. They won't be your most devestating assault unit, but they are fast enough to serve as a vanguard to attempt multi charges, force your enemy to disengage, and give your slower choppers a chance to catch up a bit more.

They are a good anti tank unit because they can load up on 2 melta guns and a combi melta. Compared to Raptors, Bikers are faster, Bikers are more durable. Raptors tend to struggle to use Melta effectively because they cannot drop into the 6 inch bubble Melta is most effective in. They also tend to lack the durability to take enemy punishment and are very easy to wipe out. Bikers in comparison are faster than Raptors and can leverage their better durability to get into combat and melt faces. Don't underestimate the Bolters against vehicles either. With Veterans of the Long War those 3 Melta Shots will be wounding on a 2, and their unholy number of Bolter Shots will all be wounding on a 4.

Whats not to love about Bikers? They are fast, they can support zerkers with close range shooting, and charge in themselves!

Sorry, I meant they have the DAEMON *keyword*, which lets them get a charge reroll off heralds and the like.

And, I suppose, +1S, the benefit of which is wounding T5 on a 2+. Hmm. Well, useful against custards.

Thenord wrote:
Could anyone give me some advice for what to bring in a "pure" World eaters army. I would like to add a Kytan (awesome model!) And maybe a vanguard detachment of a insensate rage thirster and 3 units og blood hounds. Is zerkers and rhinos the only way to go?

I have not used my Kytan, yet, but I think he's gunna be great fun! I feel like it'll be a 500 point damage that won't reach combat, but we'll see. A Ravager and Bloodthirster would be scary! I like to give mine Armor of Scorn for the 4+ invul and the deny the witch and with those hounds you'll have more than enough denies. Unless you infiltrate with Alpha Legion, rhinos are the best way to go. The rhino is roughly 4 Khorne Berzerkers (in terms of price), but it has 10 wounds and t7 so it'll last way longer than 4 zerkers and it moves twice as fast. If you footslog units of berzerkers with a bloodthirster and ravager, they might survive with few shots aimed at them, but once they get close they'll be targeted for sure. My berzerkers often die in a single shooting phase after being left in the open after charging a unit. Alternatively, you could use Forge World miniatures...

The mole machine or the deep strike claw can both work, but now you're coming from reserves and getting a charge on turn 3 at the earliest and you're limited. Sometimes you might want to deep strike with the Bloodthirster and, depending on how many berzerkers you take, you might have too many in reserves or too few on board. I've wanted to grab a Spartan Land Raider to transfer 3x8 Berzerkers with a character, but that's still more points than 3 rhinos, though it comes with good firepower.

@akaean

I might give bikes another try, my friend has plenty to use. The first and only time I used them they disappointed me greatly. I charged some Ad Mech walkers that look like Sentinels and Dreadnoughts had a baby that grew twice their size. They were pretty pitiful, but they were also fighting something that they shouldn't have been fighting.

The biggest thing that turns me off from bikers is that they're not khorne berzerkers. They do not have 2 base attacks or strength 5, not to mention they will only be fighting once in the fight phase. They cannot take chainaxes, either, so their strength 4 is going to stay strength 4 and then they'll get 2 attacks total with no AP. They are durable, that's for sure. The only way they will be useful is if I charge them to assist another melee unit, but my melee units are too successful in combat, nothing needs the help of 2 attacks at 25 points each.

I really want bikers to work because I've always wanted to use bikers, but they're just too weak to fit in with everything else.

 Kharneth wrote:


I might give bikes another try, my friend has plenty to use. The first and only time I used them they disappointed me greatly. I charged some Ad Mech walkers that look like Sentinels and Dreadnoughts had a baby that grew twice their size. They were pretty pitiful, but they were also fighting something that they shouldn't have been fighting.

The biggest thing that turns me off from bikers is that they're not khorne berzerkers. They do not have 2 base attacks or strength 5, not to mention they will only be fighting once in the fight phase. They cannot take chainaxes, either, so their strength 4 is going to stay strength 4 and then they'll get 2 attacks total with no AP. They are durable, that's for sure. The only way they will be useful is if I charge them to assist another melee unit, but my melee units are too successful in combat, nothing needs the help of 2 attacks at 25 points each.

I really want bikers to work because I've always wanted to use bikers, but they're just too weak to fit in with everything else.

You need to change the way you frame bikers if you want to get something out of them. Unlike Khorne Berzerks they are not good front line melee generalist troops. But seriously, what you are paying for when you take Bikers are 4 Bolter Shots per Bike at 12 inches + whatever damage the special weapons do. They are a point blank shooting shock troop whose goal is to make life easier for your Berserkers. Whether that is putting melta guns into an annoying tank, softening up a horde with a bucket of bolter fire, or charging a fire support unit your Zerkers can't reach to prevent additional shooting on enemy turn.

Bikers are okay in melee, but mainly as a tarpit and disruption unit not as a killer, and they definitely aren't capable of tackling a walker in close combat. They are a bully unit who are fast enough to reach soft enemy targets and tie them up to prevent them from shooting on enemy phase. If your Zerkers are a hammer that shatters your enemy with overwhelming force, the Bikers are the scalpel which cuts your enemy's tendon- preventing them from escaping the hammer fall.

Thenord wrote:
Could anyone give me some advice for what to bring in a "pure" World eaters army. I would like to add a Kytan (awesome model!) And maybe a vanguard detachment of a insensate rage thirster and 3 units og blood hounds. Is zerkers and rhinos the only way to go?

Actually mono Khorne....ok

Kharn
Exalted Champion

9 zerkers, rhino
9 zerkers, rhino
10 zerkers, rhino

Daemon Prince of Khorne, Skullreaver
Skarbrand, deep strike

30 bloodletters, deep strike, banner, icon
30 bloodletters, deep strike, +1 to charge distance
10 bloodletters

 akaean wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:


I might give bikes another try, my friend has plenty to use. The first and only time I used them they disappointed me greatly. I charged some Ad Mech walkers that look like Sentinels and Dreadnoughts had a baby that grew twice their size. They were pretty pitiful, but they were also fighting something that they shouldn't have been fighting.

The biggest thing that turns me off from bikers is that they're not khorne berzerkers. They do not have 2 base attacks or strength 5, not to mention they will only be fighting once in the fight phase. They cannot take chainaxes, either, so their strength 4 is going to stay strength 4 and then they'll get 2 attacks total with no AP. They are durable, that's for sure. The only way they will be useful is if I charge them to assist another melee unit, but my melee units are too successful in combat, nothing needs the help of 2 attacks at 25 points each.

I really want bikers to work because I've always wanted to use bikers, but they're just too weak to fit in with everything else.

You need to change the way you frame bikers if you want to get something out of them. Unlike Khorne Berzerks they are not good front line melee generalist troops. But seriously, what you are paying for when you take Bikers are 4 Bolter Shots per Bike at 12 inches + whatever damage the special weapons do. They are a point blank shooting shock troop whose goal is to make life easier for your Berserkers. Whether that is putting melta guns into an annoying tank, softening up a horde with a bucket of bolter fire, or charging a fire support unit your Zerkers can't reach to prevent additional shooting on enemy turn.

Bikers are okay in melee, but mainly as a tarpit and disruption unit not as a killer, and they definitely aren't capable of tackling a walker in close combat. They are a bully unit who are fast enough to reach soft enemy targets and tie them up to prevent them from shooting on enemy phase. If your Zerkers are a hammer that shatters your enemy with overwhelming force, the Bikers are the scalpel which cuts your enemy's tendon- preventing them from escaping the hammer fall.

I could take 3 Bikers w/ x2 Meltas and a combi-melta for 128 points, instead of the x2 fist Dreadnought for 122 points. That would be 3 melta shots and 14 bolter shots. Their first round of shooting won't be within 6" and I doubt they'll actually destroy a vehicle. They'll be 12" away from their target for a turn and on turn 2 they will get within 6" and destroy their target for sure. Once they get stuck in melee they'll be done shooting until I save them by using another of my units. At best, they'll pop something strong on my enemy team, like a Hammerhead, Leman Russ, or Carnifex, or they'll kill a single transport for my berzerkers. I think by turn 3 they'll be stuck in with something. Plus, now we're talking about a shooting unit that seconds as a tarpit. If it kills vehicles, it'll be a lot sooner than the dreadnought, that's for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:

Thenord wrote:
Could anyone give me some advice for what to bring in a "pure" World eaters army. I would like to add a Kytan (awesome model!) And maybe a vanguard detachment of a insensate rage thirster and 3 units og blood hounds. Is zerkers and rhinos the only way to go?

Actually mono Khorne....ok

Kharn
Exalted Champion

9 zerkers, rhino
9 zerkers, rhino
10 zerkers, rhino

Daemon Prince of Khorne, Skullreaver
Skarbrand, deep strike

30 bloodletters, deep strike, banner, icon
30 bloodletters, deep strike, +1 to charge distance
10 bloodletters

Replace Kharn with an Exalted Champion because Kharn sucks and rerolling to wound is awesome.

Everything else looks great, sort of what I take. Wondering, though, can you only give 1 unit the banner of blood?