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I was just reading the PP forums and someone mentioned that Cryx, Legion, and Circle are the most min-maxable factions currently. I certainly believe that about Cryx and Legion, but Circle? Is it true?

The thing with all those factions is that they are glass cannons. They all have methods of getting the alpha strike and messing up the opponents counter-strike.

I don't know exactly what min-maxing means but I'm thinking it's along the lines of cheese, beardy and power-gaming. There isn't really that sort of thing in Warmachine/Hordes. I'm not saying that everything is perfectly balanced but it's pretty damn close.

Oh sure there is powergaming even in Warmahordes. It just doesn't show up as much on the radar because everyone has powerful stuff. I still think that taking 50 banes plus Terminus would be ridiculously powerful (and expensive).

Another example is eLylyth with 2 ravagores, a bolt thrower, and 2 units of striders. That's a lot of eyeless sight shooty death that can get snipe and extra shots on her feat turn.

Anyway, I'm asking because Circle doesn't seem that powerful to me when I look at it. It's a faction that focuses on moving a lot while not necessarily hitting hard or being able to take a hit in return.

50 banes and Terminus ain't doing anything vs a good player of Saryn, Siege or Sorsha2 or similar.

Lylyth2 vs Barnibus, Terminus or high armour/High defence caster is a bad match up for the legion player.

But those casters are meta-benders. They are very powerful against 75% of lists (numbers totally made up) but the other 25% screws them over something rotten. And that's partly the reason behind the 2 list tournament games.


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But circle themselves aren't that powerful. They don't have those casters like Asphyxious2, Deneghra, Lylyth2, etc. But in a skilled pair of hands, and we're talking really skilled, they are as dangerous as any other faction. But getting to that point is difficult, most players will get close but very few become great.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I was just reading the PP forums and someone mentioned that Cryx, Legion, and Circle are the most min-maxable factions currently. I certainly believe that about Cryx and Legion, but Circle? Is it true?

factions dont win games, good players win games. cry win a lot, but then again, look into the stats and you'll see a lot of the people who play, play cryx. same with legion. the doom and gloom of the PP forums does not match reality. I've beaten cry and legion factions with my khadro and circle plenty times, and i've been beaten in turn. regarding circle, they're a good faction with some nasty tricks, but they're no more broken than anything else.

yastobaal wrote:
But circle themselves aren't that powerful. They don't have those casters like Asphyxious2, Deneghra, Lylyth2, etc. But in a skilled pair of hands, and we're talking really skilled, they are as dangerous as any other faction. But getting to that point is difficult, most players will get close but very few become great.

eIrusk shuts down Gaspy 2, and the Old Witch shuts down all of them. every faction has top casters, and ways to take on the others.

Regarding Circle, the power level is desceptive. the P+S116 warpwolves has a +2str warping, combined with a gorax's animus, and its 7 attacks on a turn - itll rip anything apart. then, slap sprint on it, or spirit door and repeat next turn! Circle are hardly "not that powerful" ive actually met more people who've said the exact opposite where they describe circle as a faction "with no weaknesses", which is as equally untrue as calling them not that powerful.

bear in mind you've got fastastic beasts, some great units and solos, and in terms of warcaster the unbelievable assassination potential of Kaya2, the infantry shredding abilities of pKrueger, the master of scenarios - Krueger2, and then there is Kromac. bestial simply shuts down a huge amount of armies out there. Circle are like any other faction - good players win with them, bad players lose.

*shrug*

OP, you're wrong. Circle are indeed broken, but no more broken than any other faction.

Well you're certainly not helping me decide on a Hordes faction.

Why ? There are so much factors besides power level to consider !

Noisy_Marine wrote:Well you're certainly not helping me decide on a Hordes faction.

picking a faction because its "the best" wont work. there is no "best faction". this is a constantly changing, constantly evolving meta. year to year, things change. no faction spends long at the top. there is no *the list* for any faction, there is no *how to* guide, or *take this and win without trying* buttons.

Like i said, [insert faction here] will not win you games. Being a good player is what will win you games.

Dont try and decide on a faction based on a perceived power level. base it on a look of the models, or the fluff, or a certain caster.

You're trying to decide. fine. what do you like the look of? what is the style you're going for?

Deadnight wrote:
Like i said, [insert faction here] will not win you games. Being a good player is what will win you games.

This, not only should you know your army and how it works, you really need to know how some of the more popular units/casters work and how your army beats them - WGI + Joe, Kayazy, Gun Mages, Bloodtrackers + Character etc work.

Each and every faction/caster can be competitive and they all can suck equally. You just have to figure out how they work.

You should just play PoM thei the good guys anways

I really like Mohsar, baldur and ekaya they seem to have pretty decent match ups in the world of the iron kingdoms along with some neat tricks . Circle (IMO) is kind of like a lesser legion faction with less beast support.

You cant go wrong with Kromac...

Best way to pick a faction? Easy. Which one do you like most?

I play Legion because they're my favourite faction, not because they're the best army. My first Legion models were a Nephilim Protector and a Teraph. Neither of which I knew the stats or playability of. I had no intention of getting into WarmaHordes at the time; I just bought the models because I love their aesthetic. They got me to thinking about starting Legion, and I read up on all the fluff I could on the various factions online. I wanted to play the Legion because I liked them the best, and I still do, which is why I play them.

Don't forget about running Baldur1 or Baldur2 with megalith. They both heal D3 each turn, and the construct warbeasts can charge/power attack without generating fury.

I recently ran Baldur 1, megalith, a woldwyrd, and a woldwatcher in a 15-point game and it just wrecked everything

Construct warbeasts are allowed to run now right? I think they couldn't in MK 1.

Anyways, I'm getting the Hordes 2 player starter and splitting it. Probably gonna take Everblight because their Archangel looks dead sexy.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Construct warbeasts are allowed to run now right? I think they couldn't in MK 1.

Anyways, I'm getting the Hordes 2 player starter and splitting it. Probably gonna take Everblight because their Archangel looks dead sexy.

Yeah they can now. All construct does is give them pathfinder, and they don't frenzy. Only downside is, they don't generate much fury.

And I agree about the archangel, but have you seen the woldwrath? It makes the Conquest look tiny.

Actually, Construct warbeasts cannot frenzy, have no CMD stat, and cannot normally be healed by any means. Note the no-healing part only applies to Construct warbeasts, it doesn't apply to Constructs in general.

Constructs don't need to have Pathfinder, though at this time, no Construct warbeasts do not have Pathfinder or Magcial weapons.

And stuff.

baritowned wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:Construct warbeasts are allowed to run now right? I think they couldn't in MK 1.

Anyways, I'm getting the Hordes 2 player starter and splitting it. Probably gonna take Everblight because their Archangel looks dead sexy.

Yeah they can now. All construct does is give them pathfinder, and they don't frenzy. Only downside is, they don't generate much fury.

And I agree about the archangel, but have you seen the woldwrath? It makes the Conquest look tiny.

It does but the Archangel is a giant freakin DRAGON! Well, not a full-sized dragon, but pretty big anyway. It's what I wanted their battle engine to be when BE's were first announced.

They're the fastest factions in a game where speed is everything.

In Warmahordes I find that, the most overpowered faction is really down to your play style, not the rules. Play an army you're comfortable with and everything else will follow.

A better question than "which is the best faction?", is "which is the best faction/caster for me?"

The best faction will come down to your play style. Whatever you find most aestheticly and tactically pleasing will be the strongest army for you. Some people just "get" big smashy in your face tactics, and so Khador works great. Others just "get" attacking around corners from unexpected vectors, so Cryx is super powerful. Others will never have the tactical acumen to tear open the overlapping defenses of a Menoth army, and so from their POV, the Protectorate is broken. Play to your strengths and you will not have problems. The real question is: how do you like to play?

WaaaaghLord wrote: "which is the best faction/caster for me?"

we really need one of those online tests that you answer a few questions and it plops out a warmahordes faction. (if your like me, you then redo the test multiple times hoping for a different result)

Every single full faction has major tournament wins.

The most forgiving factions (those that will allow you to make a mistake without immediately autolosing the game) are probably Skorne for Hordes and Cryx or Khador for Warmachine.

The easiest to play are probably again Skorne and Legion for Hordes and Cryx or post-Colossal Cygnar, but that's pending a lot of playtesting still.

The most shooty are Cygnar/Legion, the most beast/jack-heavy Menoth, Legion, and Skorne.

But in every one of these considerations, player skill is going to trump faction bias. Good players can and will win with just about anything in WM/H.