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In M35, the Ur-Council of Terra Nova succeeded from the Imperium and claimed authority of Segmentum Pacificus. It took 900 years to bring these traitors to heel. In the meantime, the Imperium was wracked with an even greater degree of uncertainty than usual. On an unremarkable Forge World called Moirae, tech priests monitoring the Astronomicon discovered a series of anomalies that they interpreted as a message from the God-Emperor. They claimed it was a prophecy regarding the unification of the Adeptus Mechnicus and the Ecclesiarchy. Mars sent fleets to destroy the Forge World but the message had already spread.

My question is, what exactly is heretical about this idea? Don't the Cult Mechanicum and the Ecclesiarchy at least agree that the God-Emperor is the same person as the Omnissiah? Or was the Moirae Heresy stamped out because of its context -- namely, the devastated political status quo?

Manchu wrote:In M35, the Ur-Council of Terra Nova succeeded from the Imperium and claimed authority of Segmentum Pacificus. It took 900 years to bring these traitors to heel. In the meantime, the Imperium was wracked with an even greater degree of uncertainty than usual. On an unremarkable Forge World called Moirae, tech priests monitoring the Astronomicon discovered a series of anomalies that they interpreted as a message from the God-Emperor. They claimed it was a prophecy regarding the unification of the Adeptus Mechnicus and the Ecclesiarchy. Mars sent fleets to destroy the Forge World but the message had already spread.

My question is, what exactly is heretical about this idea? Don't the Cult Mechanicum and the Ecclesiarchy at least agree that the God-Emperor is the same person as the Omnissiah?

Yes, but the Omnissiah isn't the Machine God, it's a messianic avatar of the Machine God. While the Mechanicus venerates the Emperor, they don't worship him. A Unification of the two would be a unification of the Cult Imperial and the Cult Mechanicus, which would require Mars agreeing that the Machine God is, in fact, the Emperor. Think of it as somewhat like telling the Catholic Church that Jesus was fully divine and not part human in any way, shape, or form(and yes, I'm aware of the early cult that believed that) and having evidence.

It's one of those things that they put in(like the Void Dragon on Mars) to throw doubt on how loyal the Mechanicum really is.

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus was completely man and completely God. Re-applying the comparison, what is the difference between the Machine God and its avatar, the Omnissiah? Avatar means manifestation, right? The Emperor is the way that the Machine God is present in the world. So, back to orthodox Christianity, Jesus is not merely God's representative on Earth; Jesus is (one of) the way(s) that the eternal God reveals himself in time.

Manchu wrote:The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus was completely man and completely God. Re-applying the comparison, what is the difference between the Machine God and its avatar, the Omnissiah? Avatar means manifestation, right? The Emperor is the way that the Machine God is present in the world. So, back to orthodox Christianity, Jesus is not merely God's representative on Earth; Jesus is (one of) the way(s) that God reveals himself on Earth.

Right. It makes sense to the Ecclesiarchy that that's how it works, but for some reason, the Mechanicus sees it differently and so far, hasn't clarified why. It's also unclear if the entire Mechanicus even accepted the Emperor as the Omnissiah(part of the reason Mars sided with Horus is that some of the higher-ups didn't; Mechanicus has some even call him the False Omnissiah, IIRC), as a few current books say they're still waiting for it.

I wish we'd get a Mechanicus list, even if just Forge World. Some of their fluff is so vaguely and minimally designed(especially concerning their religion), that it's like a whole untapped fount of knowledge waiting to be unleashed.

Whatever in-fighting happens in the Cult Mechanicus, Mars was pretty much unified behind stamping out the Moirae Heresy. What didn't change afterwards, however, was that at least a significant amount of Tech Priests still identify the Emperor as Omnissiah. So I don't think that idea was what Mars found offensive about the Moirae Heresy. The real question, it seems, is how is the God-Emperor as conceived of by the Ecclesiarchy different from the Omnissiah?


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Or, again, maybe religion is kind of beside the point and the real issue was "we don't need to be dealing with this right now in case you didn't notice." Strangely, the Moirae Heresy was prophetic in a sense: shortly (in relative terms) after the Nova Terra Interregnum ended, Goge Vandire set about to unifying the Administratum with the Ecclesiarchy.

Also, they Cult Mechanicus only paid lip service to the Emperor being the Omnissiah and related to the Machine God. The alternative was annihilation under his war machine.

It was alliance of convenience and a way to make peace with their religious ideas. It wasn't really a dogma change.

I don't see it. I mean, the war machine you're talking about is manufactured by Mars. As for it being a change ... well, they had been expecting an Omnissiah as part of their dogma before they heard of the Emperor.

Manchu wrote:I don't see it. I mean, the war machine you're talking about is manufactured by Mars.

It is now. The Emperor brought his war machine to Mars with intent of taking theirs, one way or another.

Manchu wrote:
As for it being a change ... well, they had been expecting an Omnissiah as part of their dogma before they heard of the Emperor.

Which is why they came to a middle ground and just decided the Emperor was him. It placated both sides.

Seems to me that identification of the Emperor of the Omnissiah is pretty sincerely believed by a pretty significant faction of the Mechanicum.

DarknessEternal wrote:Also, they Cult Mechanicus only paid lip service to the Emperor being the Omnissiah and related to the Machine God. The alternative was annihilation under his war machine.

It was alliance of convenience and a way to make peace with their religious ideas. It wasn't really a dogma change.

Like any sect or philosophy, this is not entirely true.

There are branches of the Mechanicus which revere the Emperor as the Omnissiah, but are kinda considered "wacky" by the mainstream Cult Mechanicus.

Whatever they believed, it was an act of defiance that threatened the political status quo: The fabricators don't want bishops messing with their affairs and vice versa. Hence, Moirae gets stomped back into Mechanicum orthodoxy.

Yes, there was nothing inherently heretical in their claim, but it could put the delicate balance between factions at the stake, and in a universe where power and religious dogma are intertwined, any act of insubordination or even political missteps like Moirae's are always going to be seen as crimes against the faith.

I know the Sons of Medusa are adherents. Vaylund Cal, who commanded them at Badab, was distrusted by the other Loyalists because he was a devout believer in the Moirae Heresy.

Is there any information what the supposed message from the Emperor contained, other than the unification of the two cults?

Possibly Mars didn't like what else was in it.

Manchu wrote:I don't see it. I mean, the war machine you're talking about is manufactured by Mars. As for it being a change ... well, they had been expecting an Omnissiah as part of their dogma before they heard of the Emperor.

I think the Warmachine that is being referred to is the Astartes.

He basically used the Space Marines to bully the Mechanicus into submission, or that's my understanding of it anyway.

Give me ships and weapons of war to launch my crusade or I will conquer you and take them for my own

"Give me that sword to slit your throat or I will slit your throat ... with ... something."

I think the alliance between Terra and Mars must be more complicated than the Emperor bullying the Mechanicum.

Manchu wrote:"Give me that sword to slit your throat or I will slit your throat ... with ... something."

I think the alliance between Terra and Mars must be more complicated than the Emperor bullying the Mechanicum.

Who said it wasn't complicated?

The threat of the Astartes was the foot in the door, what happened after was the complicated part.

The threat of the Mechanicum was at Terra's door, too. It was complicated before what you're calling "after."

Manchu wrote:The threat of the Mechanicum was at Terra's door, too. It was complicated before what you're calling "after."

But we're not talking about 'then' we're talking about the unification between Mars and Terra. The complicated part 'after' being how they would fit the Emperor into how they treated him.

Titan Legions WD 178

On Earth the lifting of the warp storms signalled the beginning of an age of rebuilding and resurgence. From the battling warlords of Earth emerged one far-sighted visionary, a man of mysterious origins whose knowledge of past technologies astounded all who spoke to him. History does not recall his name only the title he came to assume in later years - the Emperor. This great leader united the warring people of Earth and prepared the way for the reconquest of the galaxy by his Space Marine Legions.

Not all amongst the Cult Mechanicus were happy with this turn of events. Many of the senior Magi resented the disturbance in the status quo threatening, as it did, their own power base. A few of these malcontents led a rebellion and seized the Temple of All Knowledge from where they called the faithful to war against the Emperor.

The conflict that followed was short and bloody, and ended in the defeat of the reactionaries and triumph of the Emperor's followers. Mars and Earth were reunited after millennia of separate development.

Mars hadn't much interest in Terra during the Age of Strife because of what was going on.

Titan Legions WD 178

When the Cult Mechanicus restored order to Mars its leaders looked to Earth and beyond, hoping to find remnants of human knowledge on other worlds. The Tech- Priests were appalled at the destruction on Earth and judged there was nothing worth saving. Instead they turned their attention to the wider galaxy. However, their spacecraft were unable to break through the warp storms that raged throughout the galaxy, isolating the Sol system and many others besides.

Although I have found this from WD 129

During the Age of Strife Earth and the other planets of the Terran solar system were unable to communicate with other human worlds, but maintained contact with each other. For much of this period the government of Earth held sway over the entire system, at other times Mars and the Moon were dominant.

So maybe this was the case before they lost interest.

On the topic itself, the message was supposed to also claim that the Priesthood of Mars would be overthrown, which would lead to the Cult Mechanicus and Ecclesiarchy combining. I guess no one likes being told that they are not going to be around forever.

Mechanicum doesn't mention the Emperor fighting a war against Mars. IIRC, the Emperor is greeted by Knight Titans and the Knight Titans are in turn overcome by the apparent divinity of the Emperor. "Machine, heal thyself."

Aweseom quotations, though! I'm always glad to see cool stuff like Luna dominating the Solar System at certain points in the Age of Strife.

Manchu wrote:Mechanicum doesn't mention the Emperor fighting a war against Mars. IIRC, the Emperor is greeted by Knight Titans and the Knight Titans are in turn overcome by the apparent divinity of the Emperor. "Machine, heal thyself."

But what happened before the Emperor lays foot on Mars, are we told the whole story or just what that Knight Pilot sees? Are Mars just going to let a fleet from Terra approach without being contested? Why does the Fabricator of Mars dislike the Emperor so much? This is basically what I am saying

Kelbor-Hal believed the Emperor purposely came to Mars in the guise of the Omnissiah, albeit an incarnate god who came at the head of an army of conquest. The peace that the Emperor had offered the Mechanicus was illusory, a conceit designed to conceal a darker truth. Kelbor-Hal believed that the Emperor offered peace with one hand whilst keeping a dagger behind his back with the other. In reality, the Emperor’s offer was an ultimatum, "Join with me or I will simply take what I need from you." Faced with a choice that was no choice at all, Kelbor-Hal had been forced to bargain away the autonomy of Mars and see the sacred Red Planet become little better than a vassal world of Terra, Mars ancient rival for leadership among Mankind.

Ok, this is from Wikia but I know that this is also taken from Mechanicum, or at least part is. The Astartes were the deal sealer.

Manchu wrote:Awesome quotations, though! I'm always glad to see cool stuff like Luna dominating the Solar System at certain points in the Age of Strife.

You're welcome.

Yep, it does make sense to me that, five thousand years later, Mars would still be affronted by over-conflation with Terran developments ... especially the Ecclesiarchy. But it is interesting that the Moirae heresy was viewed so negatively by both Terra and Mars. The Iron Hands, loyal to Terra above all else even though deeply sympathetic with Mars, cut out the Moirae heretics (an imminently wise solution, as opposed to chapter war), six thousand years before the Badab War. And even thought the Sons of Medusa were vetted by Terra itself about two thousand years after their expulsion from the Iron Hands, they are still viewed with suspicion by the other Loyalists.

Manchu wrote:Yep, it does make sense to me that, five thousand years later, Mars would still be affronted by over-conflation with Terran developments ... especially the Ecclesiarchy. But it is interesting that the Moirae heresy was viewed so negatively by both Terra and Mars. The Iron Hands, loyal to Terra above all else even though deeply sympathetic with Mars, cut out the Moirae heretics (an imminently wise solution, as opposed to chapter war), six thousand years before the Badab War. And even thought the Sons of Medusa were vetted by Terra itself about two thousand years after their expulsion from the Iron Hands, they are still viewed with suspicion by the other Loyalists.

I don't think the way the Iron Hands are helps their situation either.

IA: Iron Hands The Iron Hands have a close link with the Adeptus Mechanicus, and embrace many of the beliefs of the Machine Cult. The reverence they hold for the mechanical, the physical embodiment of knowledge, is frowned upon by the majority of more Codex Space Marine Chapters

So in a way i'm not surprised that a chapter, who are already frowned upon, who warred amongst itself and then split up into two chapters, one of which that pretty much sided against the Imperium, are stilled held in suspicion. Astartes don't forget when they have feel they have been wronged.

The Iron Hands never engaged in chapter war. The Sons of Medusa never sided against the Imperium.

Manchu wrote:The Iron Hands never engaged in chapter war. The Sons of Medusa never sided against the Imperium.

The Iron Hands warred against themselves which led to the Sons of Medusa being created, they are a splinter faction of the Iron Hand.

The Sons of Medusa were the the Iron Hands that allied themselves with the Moirae Forge Wold.

The Iron Hands did not go to war with themselves. Instead, they had a Great Clan Council and expelled about 1/3 of their brothers. These became the Sons of Medusa two thousand years later. In the meantime, they neither attacked nor were attacked by other Imperial forces. They always considered themselves a part of the Iron Hands until they were finally decreed a successor chapter by an edict of Terra, having been formally judged loyal. Although they were judged loyal, however, they never dropped their Moirae beliefs. This was no secret.

As I understand it the Mechanicum worships knowlege. They would consider an iPad to be holy and worth respect because it has a lot of data in it. That's why they "agreed" to worship The Emperor. Because they can get on board with the Imperial belief that The Emperor was omniscient. He was the smartest guy ever so if we concentrate on that we can kind of unify our faiths (Titanicus dealt with this well). However, the Imperials really do worship him as God the creator in a Christian sense and that is slightly different. Obviously, this comes from the fact the Machine Cult predates the Imperial Cult by thousands of years.

Good point about the disparate ages of the two Cults. That's something I had never really thought about. I suppose the Tech Priests consider the Ecclesiarchy to be some kind of "new fangled" superstition.

Manchu wrote:The Iron Hands did not go to war with themselves. Instead, they had a Great Clan Council and expelled about 1/3 of their brothers. These became the Sons of Medusa two thousand years later. In the meantime, they neither attacked nor were attacked by other Imperial forces. They always considered themselves a part of the Iron Hands until they were finally decreed a successor chapter by an edict of Terra, having been formally judged loyal. Although they were judged loyal, however, they never dropped their Moirae beliefs. This was no secret.

The Imperial Armour on the Badab war says that full civil war was avoided by the splitting Chapter, full war was probably wrong to suggest on my behalf. They could have come to blows over it though, little is said about the actual falling out. That's my fault for reading the Lexi rather than the actual source.

Never dropping their Moirae beliefs would be a reason that others Legions, as well as elements of the Mechanicum don't trust them.

Manchu wrote:Good point about the disparate ages of the two Cults. That's something I had never really thought about. I suppose the Tech Priests consider the Ecclesiarchy to be some kind of "new fangled" superstition.

They are also more squishy, with less parts that require WD40.

It's just puzzling to me that the Sons of Medusa are openly "heretical," to the point of being distrusted by their allies, and yet distrust is the the worst of it. Obviously, being an Astartes chapter grants you some leeway. But the Moirae Heresy is kind of beyond the usual "idiosyncrasies" that are tolerated among the chapters.

Manchu wrote:It's just puzzling to me that the Sons of Medusa are openly "heretical," to the point of being distrusted by their allies, and yet distrust is the the worst of it. Obviously, being an Astartes chapter grants you some leeway. But the Moirae Heresy is kind of beyond the usual "idiosyncrasies" that are tolerated among the chapters.

And yet another chapter in the Badab war is just the opposite. I'll find the name when I have more time but one the chapters worships the Emperor and works with the Ecclesiarchy to an extent that many other chapters beleive they are bluring the notion of Astartes Independance.

For anyone in this thread that has not read it, Titanicus openly shows that differant factions of the Mechanium still have arguments on how the view the Emperor.

If you have time, please do post the name of that Chapter.