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Page 23, first column, half way down (Initiative Step Pile In)

"If both player's Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault come to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26".

So, let me break it down.

This is during "initiative step pile in" - so only talking about pile in moves made at that Initiative Step.

A squad of 5 Grey Hunters charge an Ork mob. They pile in, and kill the five Orks they are in base combat with at I4.
The Ork nob with big choppa is I3. He is more than 3" away from the nearest Grey Hunter.

Combat immediately ends.

It would imply the ork mob was not in coherency.

I wouldn't call it a glitch, just the way it seems to work now.

If you want to hide model away from the front line so they don't get removed as a casualty before it is that models init step, you take the risk that by the time it is their turn, the model may not be able to get into into a position to attack.

Either way, yea, that's how it is. What's wrong with that exactly?

Both sides move so even if in this case the Ork is 5 inches away both sides are moving 3 inches. This really is not going to happen too often.

Rukland wrote:Both sides move so even if in this case the Ork is 5 inches away both sides are moving 3 inches. This really is not going to happen too often.

Both sides move during their own Initiative step only, so if you have just a single model with an 'in-between' Initiative like a Nob sitting at the back of his unit, then it's going to happen a lot.

Yeah, I have to agree. This is how I have interpreted the rule also, and it's pretty dumb! Let's hope it gets addressed in an FAQ.

The way I see it, that is what happens when the nob gets caught trying to hide behind his boyz...

Let him lead like a real commander :-P



(More seriously, in another thread, it was brought up to hide the nob in the middle to avoid challenges. Now we see one drawback to that.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets look at another, stranger, situation:


a brood of stealers charges some marines. Only 2 stealers are able to get into base contact, the Blord is way in the back.

At I7, the BLord moves 3", but is still not engaged; so can't attack.
What happens?

Does combat end only if *no* models are in base contact, or does it end if no models at that Init step can attack?

Only if there are no models in base contact.

Grey Knights assault, kill boyz, assault ends. Ork turn, DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA, PK Assault.

The rule you're actually missing seems to be on page 23 emphasis mine,

If both players' Pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together....

What your missing is that all models make that pile in move, and if at the end of the initiative step of the lowest Initiative model no pile in moves will reach, then combat ends. For an example we'll use the orks with nob, and marines you used in your example. Initiative step 4 marines pile in and make their attacks, kill 5 orks. Initiative step 3, nob makes his pile in, he is unable to reach the marines thus will not be able to fight. Initiative step 2 (remember, any combatants means the orks are still in the fight) the orks get to make their pile in moves, which can engage the marines meaning combat continues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's an example of how the rule would play out in a situation that it would end early.

A lone Archon assaults a unit of Striking scorpions. The striking scorpions are in a conga line formation with 2" separating each model, and the model assaulted is on the end of the line. The archon kills 4 scorpions on the charge, and the four closest models are removed. Now you have 10" between the archon and the nearest model in the unit. Initiative 6 the Exarch makes his pile in of 3", and does not reach the archon. At initiative 5 the scorpions make their pile in movement, and are not able to reach the archon. Combat ends at initiative five, and neither of the units is considered to be engaged in the following turn.

Lone Dragoon wrote:The rule you're actually missing seems to be on page 23 emphasis mine

Ahh, I see what you're saying. I was about to point out the sentence "All remaining Initiative steps are lost", but that seems to only trigger if no combatant would be able to reach the enemy after a Pile In (at any Initiative step).

Ok, so I agree with that. I think it's still valid to interpret otherwise, but I think this interpretation makes more sense.

Lone Dragoon wrote:The rule you're actually missing seems to be on page 23 emphasis mine,

If both players' Pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together....

What your missing is that all models make that pile in move, and if at the end of the initiative step of the lowest Initiative model no pile in moves will reach, then combat ends. For an example we'll use the orks with nob, and marines you used in your example. Initiative step 4 marines pile in and make their attacks, kill 5 orks. Initiative step 3, nob makes his pile in, he is unable to reach the marines thus will not be able to fight. Initiative step 2 (remember, any combatants means the orks are still in the fight) the orks get to make their pile in moves, which can engage the marines meaning combat continues.

Not quite. All of that is under the heading "Start of Initiative Step Pile In." So at the end of initiative step 3 there are no models in B2B. The assault comes to an end. In the same section you quoted : "All remaining Initiative steps are lost."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheexsta wrote:but that seems to only trigger if no combatant would be able to reach the enemy after a Pile In (at any Initiative step).

The section it in is very clearly for only one Initiative step. If at the end of any initiative step there are no combatants together, the assault is done.

This may not be what was intended but it is what they wrote. The reference to 6" would seem to imply they meant something different, because you only get a combined 6" when there are models acting in the same initiative step on both sides.

Lone dragon: your Emphasis is wrong; but your conclusion is correct.

The emphasis should be on "both players' Pile in moves combined".
If you have not worked through every models' Initiative step-pile ins; then both players' pile in moves have neither been completed, nor combined.

kmdl: Models only pile-in at the beginning of their own Init step; a unit of 5 T-Hammer/SS Termies that lose their only model contacted at I 5 against a unit that only has I5+4 models, but the I4 model(s) are not within 3" of the second Termie down the line have not had "Both Players' pile in moves combined" if you try to end the combat at I4; you must wait until I1.

If you're supposed to work through every model's initiative step pile in, the how could you even have "All remaining Initiative steps are lost."?

The only way you can lose initiative steps is if there is some way the combat can end before every model has had their initiative step. And that happens if at the end of any initiative step there are no models "together."

Kommissar Kel wrote:Lone dragon: your Emphasis is wrong; but your conclusion is correct.

The emphasis should be on "both players' Pile in moves combined".
If you have not worked through every models' Initiative step-pile ins; then both players' pile in moves have neither been completed, nor combined.

Actually either quote emphasis works just fine. Are the boyz combatants? Yep, so they fall under the category of any combatant.

kmdl1066, the problem is that it may be under that heading, but it does not state that the end of that specific initiative step. I'll use Kel's correction of my statement (since he was kind enough to provide it ), did the defending player make all his pile in moves? No he did not, as the boyz did not make their pile in moves so that means that they get to do so, and combat continues.

Not the first time GW has had Extraneous, useless verbiage in their rules.

Wont be the last time either.

Indeed. GW rules and sieve always seem to go together in my mind.

Imagine a situation where after the initial charge from death company the orks pile in moves leave some ork in formation but more then 6" away from 7 the death company and chaplain.
Example;
7 orks in B2B, then 13 orks behind within 2" and the other 10 orks are not within 2".

The death company go first at Int 4 killing all 20 ork models in B2B and within 2"

Int step 3, The death company step up 3" and the orks step up 3" noone can make B2B.

Combat ends!

This is my impression of it.

coredump wrote:

(More seriously, in another thread, it was brought up to hide the nob in the middle to avoid challenges. Now we see one drawback to that.

I'm not sure it's a drawback.

The orks get to charge with their furious charge next turn now, instead of getting stuck in at S3.

Wildcat Carl wrote:Imagine a situation where after the initial charge from death company the orks pile in moves leave some ork in formation but more then 6" away from 7 the death company and chaplain.
Example;
7 orks in B2B, then 13 orks behind within 2" and the other 10 orks are not within 2".

The death company go first at Int 4 killing all 20 ork models in B2B and within 2"

Int step 3, The death company step up 3" and the orks step up 3" noone can make B2B.

Combat ends!

This is my impression of it.

The DC perform their pile in moves at init 4 before they attack. They don't make a pile in move at init 3. "At the start of each Initiative step any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy must make a Pile In Move."

At init 3 only the Nob would make a pile in move. The boys are init 2.

kmdl1066 wrote:If you're supposed to work through every model's initiative step pile in, the how could you even have "All remaining Initiative steps are lost."?

The only way you can lose initiative steps is if there is some way the combat can end before every model has had their initiative step. And that happens if at the end of any initiative step there are no models "together."

Not true. If both sides are over 6" apart it is now impossible for their pile-in moves to bring them together so the combat would be over and everyone loses their initiative step.

Eg. Space marine squad with pfist serg assaults squad of boyz. Marines kill enough boyz that there is now a 7" gap between the remaining boyz, and any marines. As both player's remaining pile-in moves would be insufficient to bring anyone in to base contact, the combat ends and the boyz & pfist serg lose their initiative steps.

kmdl1066 wrote:If you're supposed to work through every model's initiative step pile in, the how could you even have "All remaining Initiative steps are lost."?

The only way you can lose initiative steps is if there is some way the combat can end before every model has had their initiative step. And that happens if at the end of any initiative step there are no models "together."

I showed an example of that, initiative steps 4 through 1 were lost in the archon/striking scorpion example.

And I disagree. At the end of initiative step 6 in your example there are no models in b2b and the assault comes to an end. All remaining initiative steps are lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To explain further why combat has to end immediately when at the end of an initiative step there is no B2B. Lets look at this example.

Marines (I4) with attached Captain (I5) charge orks (I2). The captain is the only one who makes it into contact. Initiative step 5 captain kills a bunch of orks and is not in B2B anymore. Initiative step 4 marines pile in 3" but don't get into B2B. They get no attacks. Initiative step 2 orks pile in and do make it into B2B. They get to attack. THIS IS WRONG!

The assault has to end at initiative step 4 when there are no models eligible to fight and all remaining initiative steps (ie. step 2 for the orks) are lost,

Here's something to think about, what we are talking about is only the pile ins. We have to actually reference the rules for the initiative steps, not for pile ins. Read the bolded portion of text from initiative steps. We are told to work through the initiative values of models engaged in combat starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. The models are engaged in combat as soon as a charge is successful, meaning we must work through all the initiative steps. Nothing in the pile in rules contradicts this, so every initiative step must make their pile in movement because we must work through all the initiative steps. If at the end of the final initiative step that we work through (say initiative 5 from the striking scorpion example) there is no way a unit can reach, then we skip the remaining initiative steps.

Blaggard wrote:Grey Knights assault, kill boyz, assault ends. Ork turn, DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA, PK Assault.

QFT, low armor has its advantages.

kmdl1066 wrote:And I disagree. At the end of initiative step 6 in your example there are no models in b2b and the assault comes to an end. All remaining initiative steps are lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To explain further why combat has to end immediately when at the end of an initiative step there is no B2B. Lets look at this example.

Marines (I4) with attached Captain (I5) charge orks (I2). The captain is the only one who makes it into contact. Initiative step 5 captain kills a bunch of orks and is not in B2B anymore. Initiative step 4 marines pile in 3" but don't get into B2B. They get no attacks. Initiative step 2 orks pile in and do make it into B2B. They get to attack. THIS IS WRONG!

The assault has to end at initiative step 4 when there are no models eligible to fight and all remaining initiative steps (ie. step 2 for the orks) are lost,

This sounds correct, this is what i was trying to explain. combat would end after the Captain if at Int 4 no SM can get to B2B.

This means high int characters in CC kill a bunch or models before there attacks are struck back then his unit steps up to protect him, as long as there not int 1.

Lone Dragoon wrote: If at the end of the final initiative step that we work through (say initiative 5 from the striking scorpion example) there is no way a unit can reach, then we skip the remaining initiative steps.

But there are no initiative steps to skip if you've worked through everyone's initiative step!

Also, it tells you in the instructions for a SINGLE initiative step that if there is no contact after combined pile in moves (ie. both players models acting in that SINGLE initiative step, so you have models on both sides with the same initiative) that the assault comes to an end.

I repeat, these are the instructions for a SINGLE initiative step. If you don't evaluate it this way you get my example where models at a higher initiative don't get any attacks and then models at a lower initiative step do get attacks.

I hope gw posts some battlereports so we can see one in action to show how stuff will work to answer a lot of questions floating around

I do consider this a 'glitch' in that, from the text, it appears that GW forgot that units fighting each other may not both have units at the same init. To much marine on marine testing I guess? Perhaps not enough testing with complex units? They go out of their way to say "more than 6 inches apart" when in reality its more than 3 inches if only one side acts at an init step.

In any event, the 'Glitch' directly leads to players being able to end combat early by taking some very particular kinds of models.

For example, in a GK squad of termies, you can have 10 guys with halberds and 1 init 5 char. Because init 5 is a less common init, and because you can put the char in the back, after clearing the few closest models (that happen to always be the ones in base contact) you use your slightly lesser init char who is 3.1 inches back to end the combat without the enemy getting a chance to swing at init4 or less, simply by killing the couple of models in base contact. The enemy still loses the combat and needs a break check no less.

Works with lots of character setups. Tyranids with a Prime in something like genestealers, DE with a haemmy, Eldar with a Farseer, ect.