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So I posted this on BoLS and it has lead to some interesting discussion and I know this is the home of the INAT FAQ so I was hoping it would help me get better clarification if I asked here as well. Basically this came up in my local gaming group

[quote =some guy]Howling banshees just got a good buff.

They can swap thier power weapons for power axes, and get +1 str/ap2
As they are always I10 when they charge into combat due to the mask, this is going to rock.

Especially on an autarch with power axe and banshee mask.

Looks like you roll off and see which one applies first.

That seems to be the logic I am going with, but there is still a decent amount of debate over that due to the wording of Has VS Attacks At

Looks like the banshee mask makes their initiative 10(so for a sweeping advance would be 10) but the axe doesn't modify your initiative it just strikes at initiative 1.

The argument I have heard is that the codex says HAS initiative 10 where as the weapon profile says you are ATTACKING at initiative 1. IE you can have whatever initiative you want, but attack at the I1 irregardless.

6th ed core rulebook page 43 wrote: Unwieldy: A model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative step 1, unless it is a Monsterous Creature or a Walker

The second quote says nothing about modifying the iniative of the model with the weapon just that they always strike at initiative 1, if it said a model with this weapon has their initive reduced to 1 I would agree that both rules cannot work at the same time. As it stands it looks like you have initiative 10 but your weapon says you strike at initiative 1. I think the key is the axe doesn't modify your initiative it just modifies when you actually strike, because I don't believe most people would claim that when you rolled off for what take precedent that the banshees would be at initiative 1 for purposes other than attacking.

If thats the case knee, how do you resolve their pile in moves?

Or you could just give them "mauls" +2 str and concussive.... at ap4, but still striking on I10....

The rulebook does say that when 2 rules between main rulebook (Unwieldy) and codex (Banshee Mask) clash, the codex takes preference. But the FAQ for Tyranids goes against this.

It seems to me the Banshee has init 10 (great for sweeping advance) but attacks at init 1. As you are actually attacking at init 1, you pile in at init 1.

I had something similar come up today, namely what init do you use for sweeping advance. The model in question was an ork nob, and it seemed that because the ork nob was not attacking, you use the init of 3, not 1 from the power klaw.

To further complicate matters, now in 6th if you dont have grenades you attack at init step 1. This seems identical with the power ax attacking at init step 1. Banshee mask, as posted above, only ignores the BONUS to initiative granted by cover and grenades. Init 1 is not a bonus of cover, thus it is not ignored? Its obvious it should be, but the rules quoted above do not seem to read that way--after all, the Eldar book is 2 editions behind so of course its terms are all wrong for 6th ed.

As cool as it would be to see the power axes at I10 I believe they still wouldn't strike until I1. Much like models with thunder hammers under the effect of Quicksilver still must wait until I1 to smash faces.

Personally I like Helgrenze's advice of taking mauls, but that's just me.

The unwieldy rule doesn't change the model initiative (unlike the banshee masks), so the tyranid FAQ does apply.
They would still be I10 (for sweeps etc) but would strike during initiative step 1.

For sweeping advance, you use the unmodified initiative of the model.

So is it some peoples take that unwiedly doesnt modify your init then?

imweasel wrote:For sweeping advance, you use the unmodified initiative of the model.

So is it some peoples take that unwiedly doesnt modify your init then?

It doesn't. Its not "some people's take". You strike at I1, youre not I1.

rigeld2 wrote:

imweasel wrote:For sweeping advance, you use the unmodified initiative of the model.

So is it some peoples take that unwiedly doesnt modify your init then?

It doesn't. Its not "some people's take". You strike at I1, youre not I1.

Doesnt that break pile in?

You move and strike at your init step right?

Your initiative step isn't nessisarily your initiative stat.

grendel083 wrote:Your initiative step isn't nessisarily your initiative stat.

This. Banshee masks make your init stat 10. Unwieldy makes you strike at I1 regardless of your stat.

rigeld2 wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Your initiative step isn't nessisarily your initiative stat.

This. Banshee masks make your init stat 10. Unwieldy makes you strike at I1 regardless of your stat.

So termies pile in at init 4 step? Then again at init 1 step and then swing?

The pile in rules seem to indicate that you pile in at your init step.

imweasel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Your initiative step isn't nessisarily your initiative stat.

This. Banshee masks make your init stat 10. Unwieldy makes you strike at I1 regardless of your stat.

So termies pile in at init 4 step? Then again at init 1 step and then swing?

The pile in rules seem to indicate that you pile in at your init step.

The initiative step rule also indicates you attack your initiative, yet the Banshee can't do anything then because the weapon she wants to use is Unwieldy? That kinda breaks the whole process.

Work your way through the Initiative values of the models .<snip>.. starting with the highest and ending with the lowest

Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached

Since the mask makes the Banshee initiative 10, it has to do _something_ at that step (apart from pile in).

Specifically:
the mask makes her initiative 10, which makes her attack at initiative step 10
vs
Unwieldy, which makes you attack at initiative step 1

Back to a roll-off?

Is it worth the argument or the possibility of striking at I1 with a 4+ save? Even grots could (in sufficient numbers) beat face on banshees.

this seems to be something that will only be resolved with a faq, and will be the difference between banshees as one of the best units in 6th edition again or one of the worst. As an eldar player who's main opponent is going deathwing, I have a vested interest in this, but from this and other threads there seems to be no real consensus.

Um i thought it said in BRB that pile in went off the time the model is attacking so in this case I1 because of axes. Not off the I of the model otherwise TH/SS termies can't attack. Or you pile in at I10 then attack I1?

I am going with you pile in at your init. If you are using an unweidly weapon, you strike at init 1.

Denied wrote:The argument I have heard is that the codex says HAS initiative 10 where as the weapon profile says you are ATTACKING at initiative 1. IE you can have whatever initiative you want, but attack at the I1 irregardless.

The counter argument is that these are two "set modifiers" and there for it follows the rules for multiple modifiers as per outlined in the Tyranid FAQ.

I think there are legitimate RAW arguments to support both of these, as well as the argument that the Banshees would Pile In at Initiative 10 and then not attack until Initiative 1. (For what it's worth, I find the "strike at I1" argument to be more valid, but that's a purely subjective statement)

However, RAW also says on page 4: "Nobody wants to waste valuable gaming time arguing, so be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution for yourselves (in a manner befitting the better class of Imperial Citizen, of course)." In other words, it's RAW to stop worrying so much about RAW! We'll need an FAQ to be "use it at a tournament" sure, but I'm of the opinion that the Banshees both Pile In and strike at Initiative 1, because that's what seems to be intended and feels most balanced, and it's how I'll play it in all my games.

The new rules added in a difference between Initiative (the stat) and initiative step (the point where you attack).

Pile In references a models initiative, which is the model stat, this means that a model with Initiative 4 piles in at Initiative step 4, and attacks at initiative step 4.

Unwieldy references the initiative step which attacks are made. Not the model. The step. So the initiative of the model does not change. The step where it piles in does not change. The step where it makes its attacks changes.

Things that effect initiative effect both pile in and initiative step of the attacks, but Unwieldy overrides it for attacking, not for anything else.

Banshees with masks on the charge Pile in at 10, and attack at 10 unless armed with an unwieldy weapon, in which case they pile in at 10 and attack at step 1.

Kiredor wrote:The new rules added in a difference between Initiative (the stat) and initiative step (the point where you attack).

Pile In references a models initiative, which is the model stat, this means that a model with Initiative 4 piles in at Initiative step 4, and attacks at initiative step 4.

Unwieldy references the initiative step which attacks are made. Not the model. The step. So the initiative of the model does not change. The step where it piles in does not change. The step where it makes its attacks changes.

Things that effect initiative effect both pile in and initiative step of the attacks, but Unwieldy overrides it for attacking, not for anything else.

Banshees with masks on the charge Pile in at 10, and attack at 10 unless armed with an unwieldy weapon, in which case they pile in at 10 and attack at step 1.

Which negates the effects of the mask, and sets the Banshees up for destruction before they can strike.
Again I ask, with their 4+ save, is it really worth it? The Eldar have more efficient ways of dealing with 2+ armor.

If I was to talk tactics, I would suggest having a single model or two out of the squad with an Axe, incase you get charged by 2+ saves or a MC with T7 so that you have a chance. And if you get the charge, use your pistol, so now you hit at I10.

It gives an option. There are times where it might be worth it.

Course a Power Maul would give you S5, so you could even hurt wraithlords, but couldn't deal with marines as easy, tradeoffs, theyre all good at some points.

Yea, haveing at least one or 2 with the axe would be good, but if you want a way to deal with 2+ at i10 then give the exarch mirror swords, as they ignore armour saves. sure, they are s3, but thats 4 base attacks and 5 on the charge.

Banshees always strike at Initiative10 if they charge, no discussion.

Smitty0305 wrote:Banshees always strike at Initiative10 if they charge, no discussion.

Unless their weapon is unwieldy.

Smitty0305 wrote:Banshees always strike at Initiative10 if they charge, no discussion.

I see no errata for Banshee Mask in the Eldar FAQ, so you're absolutely wrong.
"In the first round of an assault a model wearing a Banshee mask has Initiative 10..." C:Eldar, pg 31. Emphasis mine
Banshee with power axe who charges at enemy has Initiative 10 but still makes its attacks at Initiative 1, as per Unwieldy special rule.

Edit: and when charging Wraiths with whip coils you'd roll-off to see if they're I1 or I10

Unfortunately, I agree that attacking at Initiative 1 bypasses all the Initiative changes, including the one made by Banshee Masks.