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First of all sorry if this is in the wrong forum and sorry if it has already been covered cant find any previous Topics about it.

So at the weapons list (in the BRB) it states that part of the missile launchers stats can be a flakk missile count as having the skyfire rule.

It then states on pg 57 under the Missile launchers rule " All missile Launchers come with frag and Krak missiles as standard,
and some have the option to upgrade to include Flakk Missiles."


My Question here is what Missile Launchers are allowed to be upgraded to Flakk Missiles?
(as i cant find any in the BRB)

No codex has an option for the upgrade currently.

None, so far. Keep your eyes peeled for what upcoming codices have to say about it.

Right now, none.

I might house rule it so that all standard missile launchers and there xenos equivalents have them. My gaming group does not want flyers to break the game in favor of those lucky few with some extra cash. Just a thought that others might find helpful.

Any codex which references missile launcher from BRB gets the flakk, any codex which has a statline for it's missile launchers do not.

Mahtamori wrote:Any codex which references missile launcher from BRB gets the flakk, any codex which has a statline for it's missile launchers do not.

Not quite, the Flakk missile is a purchased upgrade. Currently it isn't available in any codex however. So for now no one can get them.

Ah, true, missed the upgrade part which is stated in the ranged weapon section. Upgrade isn't stated at the back of the book in the summary. Sorry 'bout that.

Basically, the BRB is telling you to wait for the DA and CSM codices. I'm sure those will be rife with them.

This is my RAW argument as posted elsewhere for what seems to be the most prevalent arguments against the new missile launcher profile in the 6th edition rulebook.

First and foremost, page 57 from 6th Edition rulebook;

All missile launchers come with frag and krak missiles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles.

The above emboldened part continues to have properties and attributes added to it arbitrarily to make the first part of all these arguments.

"..., and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles" DOES NOT EQUAL "..., and some have the option to purchase an upgrade to include flakk missiles."

It doesn't matter if you want to say that the cost could be free, 10pts, or eleventy billion points because you have zero rules support to even suggest that there is a cost. To continue to insist that a cost is associated with an option to upgrade is adding words to the RAW that do not exist. You keep trying to make it part of your argument that since there is no cost in any FAQ or codex for the option to upgrade to include flakk, that it is not allowed. It is a complete strawman because the RAW does not tell you there is a cost in the first place. You are assuming that there must be a cost and are trying to pass it off as RAW when it does not exist.

Now on to the second point of your argument; of the specific option not being in any current FAQ or codex and thus unavailable. We start with the following;

Note that this is an older Codex, written for a previous edition of rules. You will therefore need to consult the Reference section of the Warhammer 40.000 rulebook for an up to date list of Unit types and Vehicle Hull Points. You'll also find that some of the weapons in this Codex are written out longhand, rather than using the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40.000 rulebook. Dont worry - these are functionally identical unless noted otherwise in this document.

First you need to address what GW considers "the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook".

Space Wolves Codex, page 57

FORCE WEAPON
See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Blood Angels Codex, page 58

POWER FIST
A power fist is an armoured gauntlet surrounded by a disruptive energy field. It is used to deliver crushing blows, capable of smashing the thickest armour asunder.

See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details of using power fists.

Dark Eldar Codex, page 58

SHURIKEN PISTOL
See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Now these rules are all what GW considers, "the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook". They all need to reference the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and considering that they are all very short and concise in their entries with the directions to where to find out how they are used, they can hardly be considered, "longhand".

Now let us look at just a couple of examples of what GW must then consider, "longhand"(note I am not including the stats as per B&C policy on posting rules) because they indeed give you the full weapon profile and how to use them without the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook;

HEAT LANCE
The long barreled heat lance combines melta and high-yield las technology into a weapon that that has extreme destructive potential.

Range Strength AP Special
Heat Lance X" X X XXXXXX

Space Marines Codex, page 99

MISSILE LAUNCHER
The standard heavy weapon for Space Marine Tactical squads, the missile launcher can fire either krak or frag missiles. Frag missiles are designed to wreak havoc amongst lightly armoured infantry, while krak missiles can challenge the most heavily armoured targets.

Each time a missile launcher fires, the controlling player can choose which type of missile is being used.

Krak
Range Strength AP Type
XX XX X XXX

Frag
Range Strength AP Type
XX XX X XXX

So now that we have established those two variables, we come back full circle to the following at the beginning of each 6th Edition FAQ under Amendments;

Note that this is an older Codex, written for a previous edition of rules. You will therefore need to consult the Reference section of the Warhammer 40.000 rulebook for an up to date list of Unit types and Vehicle Hull Points. You'll also find that some of the weapons in this Codex are written out longhand, rather than using the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40.000 rulebook. Dont worry - these are functionally identical unless noted otherwise in this document.

The emboldened and red text above is what kills your argument against flakk completely because it is what specifically directs you to use the new profile for missile launchers in the 6th edition Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

1. As shown by the above examples, Missile Launchers in the codexes are clearly written out longhand, rather then using the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. The were written in longhand with full details on how to use them in 5th edition without referencing the core rulebook on how to use them.

2. The FAQ amendment specifically tells you that despite being written in longhand rather then using the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, NOT TO WORRY because they are functionally identical.

3. The FAQ amendment specifically tells you not to worry because they are functionally identical UNLESS NOTED OTHERWISE IN THIS DOCUMENT.

4. Using the Space Wolves FAQ as an example, nowhere in the FAQ is it NOTED OTHERWISE to use the codex profile for missile launchers over the new 6th edition rulebook profile for missile launchers.

So by all means, present a RAW argument that takes apart this post. As it is, this is the RAW argument that missile launchers use the new profile for missile launchers in the 6th edition rulebook.

Until they clarify what "and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles." actually means.

if we do not know that, then we can not use their rules.

They could have meant upgrade to Flakk for a certain amount of points. (Currently not supported by the RAW).

They could have meant upgrade to Flakk in exchange for Krak missiles, no points extra. (Currently not supported by the RAW).

So until we get clarification it is best to use the least advantageous interpretation.


.

The conclusion of point 4 can be inverted too,

Nowhere in the FAQ are you told to use the 6th Ed rulebook profiles, so you cannot.

Heres the longhand argument.

You'll also find that some of the weapons in this Codex are written out longhand, rather than using the weapon profile format in the Warhammer 40.000 rulebook. Dont worry - these are functionally identical unless noted otherwise in this document.

Does the document note otherwise?

Then you only have the rules from the codex to go by.

You only consult the rulebook for updated Unit Types and Vehicle Hull Points

Nowhere in what you quoted does it say to use the rulebook for weapon statlines.

They are functionally identical unless otherwise noted in the FAQ, this is referring to the profile formats, not the profiles themselves, as I read it. Neither the codex, nor the FAQ, gives you permission to use the rulebook profiles over the codex profiles...

What you are forgetting, Brother Ramses, is that 40k is a permissive ruleset. You can't do anything unless you are told you can do so. Yes, the weapon entry says "Some missile launchers have the option to upgrade to flakk". It does not, however, say which ones can do so. It does not say "all missile launchers can upgrade", it specifically states that "some" can, which means that "some" cannot. Since no codex FAQ states that their missile launchers can, in fact, upgrade to have flakk missiles, NONE can, at the present.

Yes, it says use the new weapon profile presented in the rulebook. Nowhere does it say "Upgrade a missile launcher to use Flakk Missiles (Free,10pts,25pts, whatever). Until there is a unit entry with that spelled out, you simply can not claim that you have Flakk missiles.

@Brother Ramses
Sure, you can use the profile in BRB 6th edition. The one that specifically states that you can shoot Frag and Krak missile. That's it. You are never given permission to fire Flakk missile.
There is mentioned that some missile launchers can be upgraded to fire Flakk missiles. Just because there are stats of Flakk in the profile does not give you the right to use it. You have to obey the rule in 6th edition Missile Launcher entry that permits you to shoot Frag and Krak only.
"..., and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles" DOES NOT EQUAL "..., and some have the option to shoot flakk missiles".
So the argument about: "they meant Missile Launchers can but EML and cyclons can't" is wrong.

Especially given that merely including something in the name doesn't make it the same thing. For example, a Hotshot Lasgun isn't a Lasgun. So a Cyclone Missile Launcher or an Eldar Missile Launcher aren't, as far as the rules are concerned, Missile Launchers.

So when it says "some Missile Launchers" it doesn't, in any way, reference or consider Eldar Missile Launchers or Cyclone Missile Launchers. As far as the rules are concerned those aren't Missile Launchers.

Where do you propose they put the profile for Flakk Missiles in a way that ties them to the Missile Launcher, but doesn't in any way imply what can fire them?

And lastly, the Daemons FAQ has the exact same comments regarding long form profiles. In fact, all the FAQs have the exact same comments. Almost as if it was copied and pasted into all the FAQs regardless of specific application. And your way of doing things gives all three profiles to the Soul Grinder's Mawcannon for free. That's a discount of 50 points. Is this acceptable to you?

Brother Ramses' argument requires us to equate "some" and "all", which fails on its face.

-------

Sadly for now we must wait and see what books eventually give us the option.

No one has access to flakk missiles right now, it's an option to take it, and you have to have the option, and no ones FAQ game them missiles so look to the next codex to see what they do for the option for that specific codex, which should be the first and only codex to get the missiles.

It's not clear if anyone has the option, so the conservative approach is to not take them. If GW had intended everyone to have them, they should have made that clear in the FAQ updates.

The Appendix summary updates were ok, but could have been better. I wish that GW would update the summary from the last page of each codex. Since that includes weapon summaries, it would make clear if anyone has flakk missiles.