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Made in fi
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Finland

tneva82 wrote:
 Weazel wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Weazel wrote:
How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?

I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!


Buy better dices? Even with -1 to hit and spirit stone for 6+++ it should cause 7 wounds vs about 10.3 without alaitoc(just battle cannon).

That or deep strike some plasma tossing guys if it doesn't have chaff around. Bye bye -1 to hit.


Well I just did a few passes with dice so it's not a scientific result, but I would hope 4 tanks could pop one tank in a phase... Also vice versa a single Fireprism (okay technically two fireprisms) with Linked Fire did 27 damage to a Leman Russ. Sounds balanced!

People seem dead set that Plasma is good anti-tank but I'm just not buying it. I fail to hit and wound with them and even supercharged you need a significant amount of shots to do any real damage... What's IG's best source of medium-long range D6 damage shooting?


Well non-alaitoc prism goes poof in one round with about average results though still fairly often fails(of course sometimes you roll good and don't need 1-2 tanks). But if it's T7, 3+/6++ and say 12W no you wouldn't be getting.

For plasma you obviously have some sort of reroll to hit so that helps. And deep striking plasma is obviously the tempestus so 3+ to hit with reroll 1's. You CAN'T be missing that much with those or indeed time for new dices! And with overcharge plasma hit is actually better than hit from battle cannon. Albeit you get more shots out of battle cannon but again here you would be hitting on 3+ rerolling 1's vs 5+.

Incidentally here thus 4 plasma guns would cause averaging 5.76 damage to said prism. You thus need bit more than 8 plasma gunning scion vs 7 battle cannons to take out one alaitoc fire prism with spirit stone.

Catachan/Cadian are going to help battle cannon a bit though. Plus sponson and hull weapons maybe.

Of course problem with scions will be getting that deep strike. Odds are eldar will bubblewrap so T1 nuke is not likely possible. T2 requires you to clear the chaff first.

Not sure IG has much. Melta sucks. Lascannons and maybe missile launchers but those hit into -1 to hit issue.

Pask btw can be pretty damn good at taking out anything but he's going to be prime target. But with 2d6+2d3 plasma shots hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's...Good luck surviving that.


Well Pask is on my shopping list anyway, probably gonna magnetize the turret to play around with Punisher and Executioner to see which one is more useful in my lists.

Aynway I'm kinda spoiled from playing SW and having my Long Fangs and Predators doing D6 damage.. of course I can always include them as a Spearhead for AT purposes.

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Been Around the Block






 Weazel wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Weazel wrote:
How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?

I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!


Buy better dices? Even with -1 to hit and spirit stone for 6+++ it should cause 7 wounds vs about 10.3 without alaitoc(just battle cannon).

That or deep strike some plasma tossing guys if it doesn't have chaff around. Bye bye -1 to hit.


Well I just did a few passes with dice so it's not a scientific result, but I would hope 4 tanks could pop one tank in a phase... Also vice versa a single Fireprism (okay technically two fireprisms) with Linked Fire did 27 damage to a Leman Russ. Sounds balanced!

People seem dead set that Plasma is good anti-tank but I'm just not buying it. I fail to hit and wound with them and even supercharged you need a significant amount of shots to do any real damage... What's IG's best source of medium-long range D6 damage shooting?


Plasma scions do better if you do everything possible to buff them. You want to be in a Tempestus detachment to get their roll sixes again regiment trait, and have a Tempestus commander to give them the order to reroll ones. The commander should also have the Laurels of Command to give them a chance to give the Elimination Protocol Sanctioned order on top of Fire on My Target.
   
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 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I am also interested in running a pure infantry Guard army.

Can you make a decent using using just:
-Company Commanders
-Primaris Psykers
-Command Squads
-Infantry Squads
-Special Weapon Squads
-Heavy Weapon Squads

And what regiment would be the best to run them as?

I wouldn't bother with special weapon squads too much, youll have several company command squads running around with banners and you'll want rough riders/Stormtroopers for outflanking and deepstriking, those combined with your infantry squads should cover most special weapons. The rest are absolutely kosher, I use them all heavily in my infantry lists.

As for regiment trait, that really depends.

Cadians are pure firepower, but lack in mobility and leadership. If you were going to go full cadia I would heavily consider Kell to help with leadership and possibly Creed for extra orders/CP's, but he's not as useful as Kell is. Cadians will hit hard but suffer in most tournament minded games thanks to having to move for objectives and having to fall back from turn 1 charges. They hit the hardest, but are easily predicted and very vulnerable to counterplay.



I play a 2k Cadian list with a lot of infantry, 2 russ, and 3 basilisks

Superior tactical training + Laurels of Command >>>Creed
Cadians are downright vicious when they get double orders

I'm not sold on Kell. He costs a lot of points and a Commissar tank also does the job well.

All regiments are fast with MMM

Cadians are plasma gods. Overlapping fields of fire will cancel out the deadly -1 to hit and reroll 1s reduces the over charge danger to 1/36.

Short range firepower from Cadian infantry is staggering. The main job of the infantry is to punish advancing units that get too close to the tanks. Cadians are a great army if you can predict an opponent's moves

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
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Western Kentucky

Curious why you're not sold on Kell, his aura stacks with things like the Commissar tank, he can hide, he has built in CQC weapons, and he gives an extra order. The order alone is worth 15pts and that's before you stack it with Inspired tactics and potentially the cadian warlord trait or laurels of command, plus the fact he's a regimental standard that cannot be picked out as easily, which is 29 points for a squad that isn't a character like he is. By the time you add everything up he's a pretty good bargain, if you consider him a command squad and half an officer alone that accounts for most of his points right there, two things most infantry players run anyways.

I do agree on Creed though. While he's thematic and cool as all get out to run, he is hardly any optimum choice when a generic company commander can be just as good as he is for less than half the cost. The CP's are nice but when do we struggle to get CP?

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
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Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

I wish Kell wasn't Cadian. I mean, yeah, I know he's Cadian and it wouldn't make sense otherwise, but for non-Cadian/Catachan players, there's no special characters to pick from.

Still, it's a minor complaint given the awesomeness of the codex otherwise. I guess there's always room to slap together a small regiment of Cadians led around by Kell or something.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





What is a commissar tank?

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
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gendoikari87 wrote:
What is a commissar tank?


2 Cp for a 6 inch leadership 9 bubble around the Leman Russ


With Kell, I wish the his flag would also give the +1 to leadership like all the other flags.
   
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman





 Weazel wrote:
How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?

I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!


Vostroyan Leman Russ Annihilator with the +1 hit stratagem.
   
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 Otto von Bludd wrote:
 Weazel wrote:
How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?

I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!


Vostroyan Leman Russ Annihilator with the +1 hit stratagem.


Can't do that, but a Cadian LRA can use it. Even still, if your enemy brought Alaitoc Hemlocks, you're screwed even with the +1 strat.
   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





RogueApiary wrote:
 Otto von Bludd wrote:
 Weazel wrote:
How does one manage anti-tank against -1 hit armies (Alaitoc etc)?

I'm seeing about 2-5 damage on a Fire Prism with 4 LRBTs... not impressed!


Vostroyan Leman Russ Annihilator with the +1 hit stratagem.


Can't do that, but a Cadian LRA can use it. Even still, if your enemy brought Alaitoc Hemlocks, you're screwed even with the +1 strat.


I was referring to the Vostroyan stratagem "Firstborn Pride" which confers +1 to hit to a unit. It's not necessarily amazing but 5 x BS4+ (if shot at a -1hit enemy) 54" range Lascannons is decent anti tank, especially with a re-roll of one if you have a tank commander or Yarrik about. It is, off the top of my head, probably Guard's best single unit shooting solution to the specific problem the original post was asking about. Tank commanders with said stratagem would also work, but you can't use the Annihilator then.
   
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Oh, yeah you're totally right. I completely blanked on their regiment specific strat and assumed you meant the Cadian OFoF.
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

So I found a pile of Cadian bits left over from after I sold my Cadians. Like, a surprising number of full models worth. I have a large Mordian army, but I wouldn't mind splashing Cadia just to have something for special characters to do.

I have a 10 man squad, another 6 guys, and a commander with bolter. In addition to Creed/Kell.

Infantry, Special weapon squad, heavy weapons? Thoughts?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I scrounged a couple more miniatures.

3 Commanders with Bolters
12 lasguns
1 laspistol / chainsword sgt
5 plasma guns
2 lascannons

I'm thinking the following:
(hq) 2 Company Commanders with bolters
(el) 1 Platoon Commander with bolter
(el) 2 Command squads with lascannons
(el) 1 Command squad with plasma guns (I can put this in a valkyrie or chimera or something)
(tr) 1 Infantry squad with plasma gun

Thoughts? That's a comfortable Vanguard Detachment, and I could put a few vehicles in it that might be more advantageous for Cadian than Mordian.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/17 10:41:38


Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
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So I know the more popular loadout for a vulture is twin punisher canons, but has anyone tried the twin hellstrike, twin las canon load out. I ask because it has a decent amount of antitank that hits none fliers on a 3+ as soon as you drop into hover mode first turn. The hellstrike missiles seem like a great choice since somehow they are multiple use and they are basically an ap-2 melta rocket. Seems like an OK way around all the hard to hit crap out there.

I only with a leman russ annihilator could run a tank commander...

   
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Quick question for the group since I can’t find it in another thread: if I take Kurov’s Aquila and my opponent uses Stratagems pre-game (or during deployment), can I roll to farm CP then as well or only after the 1st turn has started?

 
   
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CO

As long as your warlord is on the battlefield, it works. So not embarked in a vehicle or held in reserve. I'd say no to anything which occurs before deployment. It's iffy if it was intended to work prior to the first battle round. But hey, why should FAQs answer questions when they could just change point values?

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TX, US

Just curious, why does he have to be on the battlefield?

 
   
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Western Kentucky

Does kurov have to be on the battlefield? Grand strategist specifically states you must be on the battlefield but kurovs acquilla has no such stipulation. It just flat out states anytime an opponent uses a strategem you get a roll, there are no other stipulations written in it's rules.

It makes sense that one would need to be on the table to use a relic but it seems odd the warlord trait specifically states being on the table but the relic does not.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
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Springfield, VA

Presumably because they don't want people to use it when the model's been slain, either? Not sure.
   
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BEcause something does't exist until it's on the field
   
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CO

I had it confused with Grand Strategist. Haha so there are even more questions raised now that I read over it again. GG games workshop.

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I take it I am in the minority for liking the vulture in 8th

   
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader




TX, US

 davidgr33n wrote:
Just curious, why does he have to be on the battlefield?


The reason I ask is because RAW it does not state it has to be as opposed to the wording of the Grand Strategist Trait. I keep a CO off table for outflanking duty and put the Aquila on him, so I presume (again RAW) that he can be off table and still farm CP when an opponent uses Stratagems before I show up on table....

If anyone can show me differently I’d appreciate the heads up - I don’t want to cheat anyone so clarifications welcome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Corsair wrote:
I take it I am in the minority for liking the vulture in 8th


If you go into hover for the 3+ you will get shot down next opponent turn... it’s a lot of points for something you could do more cheaply on the ground.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/21 16:51:21


 
   
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Western Kentucky

For you guys running tank companies of russe's, do you have any general advice on how to make a list predominantly made up of tanks? Due to my work schedule being shifted I'm looking at running a tank company for bigger games on weeknights when getting out 150 guardsmen isn't an option.

Ive so far got 6 leman russe's and a manticore as well as 2 chimeras and a taurox. I plan on running 40-60 guardsmen as a screen but the main chunk I'd like to be vehicles to speed up deployment and turns. Other than one tank being permanently glued as an executioner the rest are bog standard russe's that are magnetized pretty handily and I can even make a few of them annihilators alongside the regular Russ variants. I figured I'll want at least one punisher for a proper armored company but other than that wasn't sure what else would work well. Maybe hellhounds And scout sentinels to push back deepstrikers?

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

Yeah, some screening infantry and scout sentinels seem like a solid idea, Personally, I think if you're spamming Russ variants, and I don't mean that in a bad way, what you're getting the most mileage out of is the bulk high-T chassis and the turret weapons. Sponsons seem like a bit of a trap if you spend too many points on them.

If what you own is standard Russes, you could also consider the Conqueror in some spots. The reroll it gets from the coaxial mount makes it a good choice to operate outside of the range of you tank commanders (if you have any). I'd probably take at least one Punisher as well, because who doesn't like a Gatling Cannon?

Take a careful look at the regimental traits before you decide anything though, as they mitigate for different mixes of weapons. I like Catachan for the standard BC Russ for the reroll on the shots, but that's just me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/23 11:48:59


He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
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Denver

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For you guys running tank companies of russe's, do you have any general advice on how to make a list predominantly made up of tanks?


It depends a little on what format you are playing in. Scout sentinels are good although they tend to easily give up objectives in maelstrom and ITC. Hellhounds are not bad, the only issue I have been having is that I am normally running a conscript blob at my deployment edge to push back infiltrators in one drop which means I either have to make room for the Hellhounds when I drop the Sentinels or they can only advance behind the infantry. The Hellhound chassis also gives a T7 target for S4 weapon to shoot at more effectively, slightly undermining the T8 wall concept.

Below is an example of something I have been working on. Couple of caveats: some of the points for the Cadian tanks might not be 100% accurate (was making some changes from memory, need to pull the books) and if it is your preference you can drop the 3 Cadian tanks for 3 Basilisk and add another Catachan Conqueror into that detachment. I want to play with the 11 hulls though for a bit to see how I like it.

Spoiler:
2,000 pts. Imperial Guard - 5 CPs

Detachment 1: Spearhead <CATACHAN>

HQ
Primaris Psyker - 46 pts. (Mental Fortitude, Psychic Apocalypse)

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Conqueror Squadron 1
Leman Russ - Conqueror Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>
Leman Russ - Conqueror Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>
Leman Russ - Conqueror Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>

Leman Russ Conqueror Squadron 2
Leman Russ - Conqueror Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>
Leman Russ - Conqueror Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>
Leman Russ - Conqueror Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>

Leman Russ Conqueror Squadron 3
Leman Russ - Conqueror Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>
Leman Russ - Conqueror Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Coaxial Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CATACHAN>

Detachment 2: Spearhead <CADIAN>

HQ
Company Commander - Boltgun 31 pts. <CADIAN> Warlord Trait: Grand Strategist

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Stygies Vanquisher - Vanquisher Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter 170 pts. <CADIAN>
Leman Russ - Executioner Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter 157 pts. <CADIAN>
Leman Russ - Punisher Cannon, x3 Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolter 168 pts. <CADIAN>

Elites
Tech-Priest Enginseer - 42 pts. <MARS>

Troops
Conscripts - x30 120 pts. <CADIAN>



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RNAS Rockall

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For you guys running tank companies of russe's, do you have any general advice on how to make a list predominantly made up of tanks? Due to my work schedule being shifted I'm looking at running a tank company for bigger games on weeknights when getting out 150 guardsmen isn't an option.


Standard LRBT is love and life. Executioner is smexy, Punisher is for giving people migraines, and the rest are junk. But we knew this

I have enough manticores to make them count with the cadian stratagem, so i'll get behind them as a concept. I put *them* behind port-a-bastions to truly rustle jimmies.

Wyverns, For all their nerfing and price hikes are *still* viable in a performance list. If you're going up against a ferrari level competition list leave them at home, but for all comers they are still effective.

The Super Heavies are evil, but just the one in a sup com is not completely intractable, and will typically 'screen' your entire army for at least two turns by absorbing the fire of everything on the table, S8+ or not.. The stormlord however is only good if you fill it with ogryns or mortars, which somewhat defeats the purpose you've indicated.

You Will Want Trojans

Screening wise, I personally make extended use of fortifications as blocking LOS tends to be more valuable in the long term than scrub guardsmen, but then my area, and specifically guard players, are mostly tread heads too.


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Id like to mention the Annihilator too, 5 LC shots can be pretty useful at times. If you need tank-based AT, the annihilator is always going to be a better choice than the Vanquisher, at least. Decent bang for your buck, too, considering you get 4 shots for the price of two.
   
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 Tyr13 wrote:
Id like to mention the Annihilator too, 5 LC shots can be pretty useful at times. If you need tank-based AT, the annihilator is always going to be a better choice than the Vanquisher, at least. Decent bang for your buck, too, considering you get 4 shots for the price of two.


I actually prefer to keep the hull LC off the Annihilator. Even with the turret + HB, the thing draws a ton of fire and rarely gets to shoot at full BS for two turns.
   
Made in us
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Western Kentucky

Wow thanks for all the quick feedback. I'm using my phone so I'm not going to be able to multi quote but a few follow up questions

The main goal for the tanks is quicker pickup games. It'll probably be a mix of book missions and ITC. I'm not too worried about how many tanks I'll have, but I do find it concerning that tank commanders seem to be heavily punished in most formats. Do you guys leave them at home or run them as barebone russes to lower their target priority? I would like to keep the list somewhat fluffy at least but for ITC especially they give up points like crazy.

@malamis, why Trojans specifically? Wouldn't a techpriest, or at least a mix of tech priests and Trojans work better? Techpriests are cheaper cashwise and can hide.

One issue I have is most of my tanks have hull lascannons glued in. It's kind of forced me down that route whether I like it or not. Sponsors are magnetized and all that, just an issue I have since I have several of the original russe's where all they had for a full weapon was a lascannon.

I have run the annihilator in a couple of test games and really like it. It seems like if mixed properly with regular russe's and executioner's it could be very powerful. What do you think is a good ratio? I don't see ever using more than 1 per every 3 tanks. I haven't decided on a regiment trait specifically but I could see myself doing either tallarn or valhallan, both seem very fun.

I'm not too worried about being able to take on something like what's hitting the top tables at LVO. Most of my meta is pretty casual and has an extremely hard time dealing with my guardsman lists. Half the reason I was taking the tanks was that I hoped it would be less frustrating, especially against newer players. I figure as long as I can build a halfway sound list I will be fine, and Im planning on taking 60 guardsmen or so just to be sure I don't get tabled if the nid and blood angel players show up.

Thanks for again for the advice, I'm looking forward to trying this out soon. :Thumbsup:

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 malamis wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For you guys running tank companies of russe's, do you have any general advice on how to make a list predominantly made up of tanks? Due to my work schedule being shifted I'm looking at running a tank company for bigger games on weeknights when getting out 150 guardsmen isn't an option.


Standard LRBT is love and life. Executioner is smexy, Punisher is for giving people migraines, and the rest are junk. But we knew this

I have enough manticores to make them count with the cadian stratagem, so i'll get behind them as a concept. I put *them* behind port-a-bastions to truly rustle jimmies.

Wyverns, For all their nerfing and price hikes are *still* viable in a performance list. If you're going up against a ferrari level competition list leave them at home, but for all comers they are still effective.


I presume problem with demolisher is the extra 18 pts it costs?

And wyvern? Why take wyvern when one could take 9 mortars for the price. 9d6 vs 4d6. Okay okay reroll to wound but doesn't seem worth twice the hits and more spread out rather than one easily taken out model.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
 
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