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greatbigtree wrote: Mr Thoreau was describing *ideal* communism, you realize. Communism is the only style of government that seeks to abolish government, trusting to people's innate desire to help one another, at expense of themselves.
Freedom isn't a lack of responsibility. It is embracing that responsibility, and realizing that you are free, so long as you're willing to accept the consequences of your actions.
Thoreau's On Walden Pond is essentially modern asceticism. You know what happened when he needed to go to a hospital, right?
Can you name me a single communist government that sought to abolish it's own government? I'd like to read about it. I am only familiar with communist countries that oppress their people socially and economically and in turn - strengthen their control over the people.
What the heck is ideal communism? Is there a real world example? Or are we just talking about Utopia - which by all means - sounds amazing. Just because something has a goal - doesn't mean it has any realistic chance to achieve it.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
cuda1179 wrote: I do think there is reasonable doubt as to if this tape exists, and if it did why would they sit on it.
I am 100% confident Trump has casually used the word, and I am super dubious this/these tapes exist too. No way someone wouldn't have leaked it by now.
cuda1179 wrote: I do think there is reasonable doubt as to if this tape exists, and if it did why would they sit on it.
I am 100% confident Trump has casually used the word, and I am super dubious this/these tapes exist too. No way someone wouldn't have leaked it by now.
I am 100% confident everyone has used the word or a similar one causally.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
greatbigtree wrote: Mr Thoreau was describing *ideal* communism, you realize. Communism is the only style of government that seeks to abolish government, trusting to people's innate desire to help one another, at expense of themselves.
Freedom isn't a lack of responsibility. It is embracing that responsibility, and realizing that you are free, so long as you're willing to accept the consequences of your actions.
Thoreau's On Walden Pond is essentially modern asceticism. You know what happened when he needed to go to a hospital, right?
Can you name me a single communist government that sought to abolish it's own government? I'd like to read about it. I am only familiar with communist countries that oppress their people socially and economically and in turn - strengthen their control over the people.
What the heck is ideal communism? Is there a real world example? Or are we just talking about Utopia - which by all means - sounds amazing. Just because something has a goal - doesn't mean it has any realistic chance to achieve it.
Ideal communism is what Karl Marx actually wanted to achieve, a stateless society where people kinda know what to do and just do it, where everything is held in common. It's a pipedream, just as much as something like Ayn Rand's perfect industrialist dominated capitalism.
Where you see it expressed most clearly is at the small scale. A typical nuclear family operates this way. Israeli Kibbutz farms are probably the largest practical expression of that ideal.
Now, with respect to "communist" governments, none of them have ever claimed to actually reach this point. Now, very broadly, the Marxist dialectic basically says that societies progress through stages, capitalism overthrew monarchy, socialism would overthrow capitalism, which would then be built into communism. Generally speaking, the entire concept was a pipedream, and many "communist" governments never really originated from capitalist societies in the first place.
In practice, most of the time they reached the "overthrow" stage...and then went on "building socialism", in whatever context they chose to interpret that, and then they'd always say "yeah... we're working on it but havent built socialism properly yet" when questions about utopian communism came up. Mostly they ended up in places that bear no resemblance to anything found in the manifesto or "Das Kapital", functionally reverting to monarchical or feudal states with a socialist paintjob, with the Party replacing old style Nobility once they had achieved power, as typically happens with most revolutions, power retention becomes the driver while the ideology is morphed to fit. North Korea for instance at this point is essentially a divine right son-of-heaven monarchy far more than it is a socialist/communist state, at least in actual function if not immediate outward form, and they have slowly been adjusting their ideology, you wont see Marx displayed anymore or hear about the manifesto, but you'll hear a lot about homegrown Juche political theory.
Ouze wrote: Shrug, I'm just kind of ignoring low quality bait like that at this point.
Not a great look for NICS. I also want to know more about this MAC10 machine pistol.
Thats gonna be awkward. Wonder what slipped this time.
Also...what is it with people and mac10's, without a giggle switch they just seem so...silly.
A paper'd one with a LAGE upper though....mmm
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/15 22:28:52
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Not a great look for NICS. I also want to know more about this MAC10 machine pistol.
I've been trying, but that one was just, like...too low-quality. I'll never get that five seconds of typing back, but I guess it was just five seconds.
Shall I bow to you with all your virtue showing? This kind of dishonesty is the absolute worst. Guy honestly claims to have never said anything hateful in a casual conversation. Then another clown calls it bait. It is an obviously true statement that shouldn't actually need to be stated. Everyone has said something hateful in their life. The only claims I've ever heard to the contrary are religious deities or profits or something - which means they probably didn't even exist. You do realize that casually - also includes jokes?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
greatbigtree wrote: Mr Thoreau was describing *ideal* communism, you realize. Communism is the only style of government that seeks to abolish government, trusting to people's innate desire to help one another, at expense of themselves.
Freedom isn't a lack of responsibility. It is embracing that responsibility, and realizing that you are free, so long as you're willing to accept the consequences of your actions.
Thoreau's On Walden Pond is essentially modern asceticism. You know what happened when he needed to go to a hospital, right?
Can you name me a single communist government that sought to abolish it's own government? I'd like to read about it. I am only familiar with communist countries that oppress their people socially and economically and in turn - strengthen their control over the people. What the heck is ideal communism? Is there a real world example? Or are we just talking about Utopia - which by all means - sounds amazing. Just because something has a goal - doesn't mean it has any realistic chance to achieve it.
"Name me a government without government" Yeah... that may be kinda hard. Because communism is not compatible with governments, you will find actual examples of communism only at a much smaller scales. Communes in Republican Spain and Israeli kibbutzes are a good historical example, but even today there are plenty of small communities (including some kibbutzes) that live according to communist principles (at least, as much as that is possible in a capitalist society). The "communist" countries you are familiar with are or were in fact socialist countries, an intermediary stage where the government seeks to change the entire system of society to gradually make way for a communist system. China and Vietnam are good modern examples of governments that still strive to eventually switch from a capitalist society to communism. It should be noted however that changing the entire system society functions on takes lots of times (it took about 400 years for feudalism to make way for capitalism for example). So a government like China isn't planning on becoming communist tomorrow. It is a process they are implementing very gradually over centuries. A big part of the failure of the Soviet Union (or the early failure of China) was that they attempted to switch over to a communist system forcibly and way too quickly. Communists have learned from those early mistakes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/15 22:37:19
Not a great look for NICS. I also want to know more about this MAC10 machine pistol.
The problem we run into with NICS is that it requires people to correctly input the right information. Sometimes local or state PD fail to get the correct information submitted in a timely manner and in this instance it appears to be the FBI or ATF that screwed up. While we were getting along fine without NICS it’s an improvement over the old system and there’s always going to be human errors.
d-usa wrote: So every time you vote, you endorse the evil leftist agenda of "having a government".
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."
Thomas Paine
Basically - I can deal with government that does it's best not to interfier in my life. So many of our founders believed this to their core. It's very disconcerting to see these ideals disregaurded as "old ideas".
I think you ought to read that whole qoute from Paine because its pro government, especially the type of government you don't like.
He believes its a necessary evil because without government society inevitably will not work. And it is an intolerable evil at worst because when it is bad or oppressive its is something that we created for ourselves.
For Paine as society gets bigger, government will also have to get bigger if it intends to properly take care of its people. So going by the offered qoute (the whole one not the partison snippet), Paine would say Congress needs to be much much much bigger with many more representatives. Those representatives should also require much shorter terms so that they represent the interests of smaller populations and themselves spend more time amongst the population and with more elections of those representatives so that they stay more attuned to who the represent.
In other words...Paine and you probably disagree on basically everything as Paine seems to understand security in a way half of the US would call socialism these days.
d-usa wrote: So every time you vote, you endorse the evil leftist agenda of "having a government".
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."
Thomas Paine
Basically - I can deal with government that does it's best not to interfier in my life. So many of our founders believed this to their core. It's very disconcerting to see these ideals disregaurded as "old ideas".
I think you ought to read that whole qoute from Paine because its pro government, especially the type of government you don't like.
He believes its a necessary evil because without government society inevitably will not work. And it is an intolerable evil at worst because when it is bad or oppressive its is something that we created for ourselves.
For Paine as society gets bigger, government will also have to get bigger if it intends to properly take care of its people. So going by the offered qoute (the whole one not the partison snippet), Paine would say Congress needs to be much much much bigger with many more representatives. Those representatives should also require much shorter terms so that they represent the interests of smaller populations and themselves spend more time amongst the population and with more elections of those representatives so that they stay more attuned to who the represent.
In other words...Paine and you probably disagree on basically everything as Paine seems to understand security in a way half of the US would call socialism these days.
It's totally within my rights to agree with one part of what a man says and not another. I am not an anarchist BTW. More of a libertarian.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The problem we run into with NICS is that it requires people to correctly input the right information. Sometimes local or state PD fail to get the correct information submitted in a timely manner and in this instance it appears to be the FBI or ATF that screwed up. While we were getting along fine without NICS it’s an improvement over the old system and there’s always going to be human errors.
This. All it really takes is someone failing to report it up the chain and the whole thing falls apart.
You all may notice that I've been ignoring Xenos for some time now in this thread.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/15 22:53:05
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Xeno's definition makes absolute monarchy a far-left type of government. Let that sink in for a while.
A true American once said:
"'That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have."
-Henry David Thoreau
This is how I view the spectrum.
Which, ironically, makes you a member of the far left, as that's anarchism.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
greatbigtree wrote: Mr Thoreau was describing *ideal* communism, you realize. Communism is the only style of government that seeks to abolish government, trusting to people's innate desire to help one another, at expense of themselves.
Freedom isn't a lack of responsibility. It is embracing that responsibility, and realizing that you are free, so long as you're willing to accept the consequences of your actions.
Thoreau's On Walden Pond is essentially modern asceticism. You know what happened when he needed to go to a hospital, right?
Can you name me a single communist government that sought to abolish it's own government? I'd like to read about it. I am only familiar with communist countries that oppress their people socially and economically and in turn - strengthen their control over the people.
What the heck is ideal communism? Is there a real world example? Or are we just talking about Utopia - which by all means - sounds amazing. Just because something has a goal - doesn't mean it has any realistic chance to achieve it.
"Name me a government without government"
Yeah... that may be kinda hard. Because communism is not compatible with governments, you will find actual examples of communism only at a much smaller scales. Communes in Republican Spain and Israeli kibbutzes are a good historical example, but even today there are plenty of small communities (including some kibbutzes) that live according to communist principles (at least, as much as that is possible in a capitalist society).
The "communist" countries you are familiar with are or were in fact socialist countries, an intermediary stage where the government seeks to change the entire system of society to gradually make way for a communist system. China and Vietnam are good modern examples of governments that still strive to eventually switch from a capitalist society to communism. It should be noted however that changing the entire system society functions on takes lots of times (it took about 400 years for feudalism to make way for capitalism for example). So a government like China isn't planning on becoming communist tomorrow. It is a process they are implementing very gradually over centuries. A big part of the failure of the Soviet Union (or the early failure of China) was that they attempted to switch over to a communist system forcibly and way too quickly. Communists have learned from those early mistakes.
Okay - we shall see on that.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
This. All it really takes is someone failing to report it up the chain and the whole thing falls apart.
Not to derail the thread (any further than it has been a few times) but its interesting to see the reaction people have when you suggest fixing those issues.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Xeno's definition makes absolute monarchy a far-left type of government. Let that sink in for a while.
A true American once said:
"'That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have."
-Henry David Thoreau
This is how I view the spectrum.
Which, ironically, makes you a member of the far left, as that's anarchism.
This. All it really takes is someone failing to report it up the chain and the whole thing falls apart.
Not to derail the thread (any further than it has been a few times) but its interesting to see the reaction people have when you suggest fixing those issues.
What do you mean, people being opposed to expanding the ATF? I could see how that's an issue but it's really irritating that you have an agency that is intentionally kept limping along and hobbled at every turn. Either fold them into the FBI, or let them actually do their jobs in a reasonable manner - I fail to see how even conservatives can honestly say "we should have a government agency, but make sure it can barely work, all the time".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/15 23:06:04
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
This. All it really takes is someone failing to report it up the chain and the whole thing falls apart.
Not to derail the thread (any further than it has been a few times) but its interesting to see the reaction people have when you suggest fixing those issues.
What do you mean? NICS works fine and local, state and federal law enforcement agencies all know how to enter information into NICS and they’re all required to do so. The only problem is that the human beings that work in law enforcement screw up sometimes, there’s no fix for that. Most of the time criminal records are reported as required but you can’t eliminate human error from humans.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Xeno's definition makes absolute monarchy a far-left type of government. Let that sink in for a while.
A true American once said:
"'That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have."
-Henry David Thoreau
This is how I view the spectrum.
Which, ironically, makes you a member of the far left, as that's anarchism.
Thoraeu might have been. Has been critisized as such. I think he was just a sad man that didn't like people very much. I think the point he was making is that we aren't prepared for that - we might never be. Logical deduction from this quote assumes less government = better.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Xeno's definition makes absolute monarchy a far-left type of government. Let that sink in for a while.
A true American once said:
"'That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have."
-Henry David Thoreau
This is how I view the spectrum.
Which, ironically, makes you a member of the far left, as that's anarchism.
AKA the best kind of left.
Wouldn't it make more sense to switch anarchy and fascism on the spectrum? If you do that you have a clear Left = more government Right = less government thing going.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/15 23:13:19
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Anarchism’s key feature is also right wing, in my opinion. Anarchism is every man for himself. This is opposed to the community pooling Resources, and instead allows petty tyrants to carve their own territory that they can then rule by strength.
Government size has little to do with left/right. Both left and right extremes require powerful governments to enforce the regime.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/15 23:20:56
My face whenever someone argues that the people who literally committed treason and started a war against their king in order to setup their idea of a utopian God-ordained government were actually anti-government.
So how 'bout those child hostages? Any word on how many of them are yet to be released?
IDK - you have any ideas that don't involve just granting citizenship to everyone walking into our country? Happy to discuss ideas with you man but you are basically complaining about collateral damage from a necessary policy (the policy that we only let some many people into this country at a time). Maybe building a wall isn't the best solution but it is a solution. What we need is a solution.
My face whenever someone argues that the people who literally committed treason and started a war against their king in order to setup their idea of a utopian God-ordained government were actually anti-government.
Well - god ordained is a poor word choice there. You are talking about natural rights - which were being violated. The reality is - that was all a terrible mess and some really bright people made the best of it. They established what was good (they called those natural rights) and they established what was bad (tyranny and opression). Why the funny face?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/15 23:37:19
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
My face whenever someone argues that the people who literally committed treason and started a war against their king in order to setup their idea of a utopian God-ordained government were actually anti-government.
It could be worse, he could be grossly misinterpreting Hobbes or Locke
It’s the face I make when people make stupid arguments that don’t even stand up to the arguments they previously made and which will go against the argument they make next.
But it’s like playing Calvinball, so the only way for me to not win is by playing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dreadwinter wrote: Those "really bright people" who were so for freedom that they condoned slavery based on skin color, nationality, and sex?
Those bastions of virtue?
Also God is a poor word choice despite:
Declaration of Independence wrote:something something Nature's God something something their Creator something something Divine Providence something something
But I guess the tl;dr version of “freedom, feth yeah” is good enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/15 23:48:12
I'm a gun nut, and I would LOVE to see the following:
1. Fold the FBI and ATF into one agency. They have a lot of crossover anyway. When something goes wrong (Ruby Ridge, Waco) they all point the finger at the other. As a single agency the buck can't get passed as easy.
2. If you can prove habitual negligence when it comes to NOT entering NCIS data, that person and/or agency should be held liable for any illegal acts they allowed to happen.
3. Make background checks much easier to do, if you want to. FFL dealers should not have a monopoly on this.
4. More funding to making all the databases linked, computerized, and accurate.
5. Force ALL agencies that have info on those that are banned from owning guns to submit their data. Yes, this includes immigration.
