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Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





Is the new Outlander campaign fun?

Winning a battle correlates to having less casualties, more income, more XP, bigger settlement (more materials to build structures), more bonuses from structures.
Losing a battle correlates to having more casualties, less income, less XP, smaller settlement (less materials to build structures), less bonuses from structures.

What happens afterwards? Repeat for 7 cycles. This new campaign looks awfully biased towards winning. Come to think of it, it's exactly like any other necromunda campaign in this aspect (Dominion, Law & Misrule, Uprising).

Would love to be the fly on the wall to observe how a successful campaign runs (without heavy house ruling or intrusive arbitration).

This sort of settlement building between battles is great in single-player games like XCOM, where you grow your strength after every victorious battle. How does it work in multi-player, when your friends are crushed without any means to rise up again?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 11:00:21


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






That’s Necromunda!

It’s also why the GM should be ready to step in should any one gang really start running away with things. For instance, I see nothing wrong in allowing two or more gangs to form a temporary alliance to bring the Leading Gang down a peg or two.

But for now, we’ll need to see the full rules with our eyes to get a better idea.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Blackie wrote:

I know, but Necromunda isn't like 40k where you need to know the updated rules because it's mostly played in pick up games. Necromunda works much better in campaigns and you don't need all the updates, since you'll have a fixed group of players which will use the same rulesets, decided before starting the campaing.

So even if GW releases some updates, playing with older rules will be ok. For example at the moment it's perfectly fine to play with Gangs of the Underhive gang rules instead of House of X ones. In fact that might even be a good way to save money, get a single Gang of the Underhive copy for the whole group and use that. Won't need the House of X rules then.


Except the new books solve rule issues in the old books (or vice versa). This is a complete mess and every new book adds to it. I'm gonna play kill team for a while longer until this game settles down


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s Necromunda!

It’s also why the GM should be ready to step in should any one gang really start running away with things. For instance, I see nothing wrong in allowing two or more gangs to form a temporary alliance to bring the Leading Gang down a peg or two.

But for now, we’ll need to see the full rules with our eyes to get a better idea.

How does that work though? What are the rules for "running away"? Imagine playing a blood bowl league, and after you win a random amount of matches, the league commissioner suddenly hands out random amount free cash and random star players to your opponents? WTF!

Sure you could allow a couple of gangs to team up, but you don't need a GM to do that. Any free group of players could agree something similar! I've seen the full rules and so far it's basically unplayable for me and my friends. If you don't WAAC, prepare to suffer!

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/11/29 11:06:07


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s Necromunda!

It’s also why the GM should be ready to step in should any one gang really start running away with things. For instance, I see nothing wrong in allowing two or more gangs to form a temporary alliance to bring the Leading Gang down a peg or two.
I mean, Oldcromunda had an Underdog Bonus for these sorts of things, but yeah, you could have gangs run away with thing.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





A campaign should let all participants gain income and be able to grow even when losing. Blood Bowl does this, GorkaMorka does this, Mordheim does this, NCE does this.

New Necromunda does not. You lose, you have a miserable campaign. You win, you keep winning.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 11:15:24


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






In Necromunda, it’s not uncommon for a gang or two to have a really good streak.

Not just winning their games (largely player skill, nowt wrong with that), but also not losing any gang members, good fortune when seeking rare items, rolling high when determining income. The last three are of course a matter of luck rather than skill. They can see the beneficiary gang become more skilled, better armed and equipped than their peers through sheer luck.

And it’s also entirely possible for someone to have a really, really rough couple of games, such as their Leader and Champions all getting proper dead, having bad luck influenced restricted income etc.

Should the GM encourage or heavily interfere? Probably not, no. But they should allow the other gangs to do as they will. Be permissive when it comes to such things, not restrictive.

Allowing other gangs to team up, however temporarily, also adds to the drama and tension. What bargain was struck? How might the other gangs react to such an alliance?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





The game is designed to maximize winning streak (and losing streak). Winner takes all, loser gains nothing. It's not luck or skill, but a fundamental flaw. No wonder there are so many discussions about how to build the best starting gang. It's the most important thing. Many campaigns are pretty much predetermined after the 2nd battle. Again, win/lose correlates strongly with casualties/death, income, resources and bonuses.

Should the game even rely on a GM? No. It should run smooth without. Blood Bowl also has rules stating that you "must" have a commissioner, still the rules are so solid they can be programmed, and have been so 3 times already. In the digitial version, you can play as many leagues as you want, no commissioner what so ever.

For me, getting the best possible starting gang was the least important thing, because a campaign should let the gang develop and change over time anyway.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/29 11:24:19


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






I respectfully disagree.

Necromunda is at its best when it’s a GM managed campaign.

Also, if players are WAACing Necromunda? I’d wager they’ve rather missed the point. Certainly I don’t think they’d much enjoy my take on it.

Necromunda is as much an RPG as it is a TTG. If you’re just playing to win, and not get involved in the story being told? You’re missing out on a load of the fun.

All just my opinion of course!

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





Whoever does the most WAACing will win the campaign. Whoever does not will suffer.

If GM is so important, how does it have any effecet on this?

If you are playing to win, you will win. If you're not playing to win, you will lose against someone who plays more into winning. "Playing into win" doesn't have a strict definition, it's a scale, and differenet people will always be on different gradients on this scale. Even if all people play to lose, some play to lose harder than others, whether they know it or not. This difference will make some gangs predispositioned to win the first battle, others lose the first battle. And from then on, it matters less and less what you do or how you play.

Whether if it's RPG or not doesn't change this.

Do you consider NCE RPG? Blood Bowl RPG? GorkaMorka RPG? Any other closely related game as RPG?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/29 11:37:25


 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

Baxx wrote:
If GM is so important, how does it have any effecet on this?
If one gang is pulling away from the others you can ask them to sit out a few rounds while the others catch up, or throw NPC Enforcers / Bounty Hunters / Chaos Spawn at them, or let other gangs team-up against them...
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






GorkaMorka is definitely an RPG. There’s a story behind your Gang or Mob, because they’re yours in a way 40K can’t really replicate.

If a single gang gets lucky early on, the campaign becomes stale quite quickly. Nobody can touch them, and they wallop their opponents in often one sided battles (if they’ve spent heavily on armour and better weapons etc).

Hence there needs to be a GM to monitor such things. Think of them representing a Guilder. It’s not necessarily in the interest of the powers that be to allow one gang to gain absolute dominance. Better to have them bickering away, so they’re less of a thorn in your side.

Again this is just my opinion, though a strongly held one.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





beast_gts wrote:
Baxx wrote:
If GM is so important, how does it have any effecet on this?
If one gang is pulling away from the others you can ask them to sit out a few rounds while the others catch up, or throw NPC Enforcers / Bounty Hunters / Chaos Spawn at them, or let other gangs team-up against them...

So a random person can come to you and say "hey, you win too much, you can't play for the next weeks". Wow... When does this happen? After winning 2 games in a row? 3 games? 4? If other gangs want to team up, you don't need a GM to "let" them do it. I play without GM and we can do this anytime we want. So the GM can make any big strong random game full of meltacannons and what not to stomp whoever wins the most?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
GorkaMorka is definitely an RPG. There’s a story behind your Gang or Mob, because they’re yours in a way 40K can’t really replicate.

If a single gang gets lucky early on, the campaign becomes stale quite quickly. Nobody can touch them, and they wallop their opponents in often one sided battles (if they’ve spent heavily on armour and better weapons etc).

Hence there needs to be a GM to monitor such things. Think of them representing a Guilder. It’s not necessarily in the interest of the powers that be to allow one gang to gain absolute dominance. Better to have them bickering away, so they’re less of a thorn in your side.

Again this is just my opinion, though a strongly held one.

In GorkaMorka the loser always gains money and doesn't lose territory to the winner. You can continue building your gang. If a single gang gets lucky, the unlucky gangs will gain increase XP and income from fighting them.

In Necromunda, a single gang will get lucky, grow stronger, and unlucky gangs will get weaker. Rinse and repeat!

Do you need a GM to monitor these things in Blood Bowl? I never seen anyone intervene a league eto punish a team because they win too much. If they get too much money, they can lose it. If they face a weaker opponent, the weaker team gets all sorts of bonuses like star players, wizards etc. This happens without any GM interventions!

What is the definition of "gets lucky"? Oh yes, I've heard the song! Necromunda campaigns are designed to make one gang win and other gang lose. And continue to do so for every battle fought.

How can I explain this so you understand? How can you see the facts without replying with opinions?

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/11/29 12:00:18


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I mean... it's not a random person, it's the GM. Meaning, usually the guy who not only has prepared everything, but the one working to make sure you have fun?

It would be what's called a moderated campaign, after all, not much different from what eventually morphed into RPGs.

That said, rules should be useable, and campaign rules in a campaign game, more so.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/29 12:01:04


 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





Who perpares everything? Who works to make sure you have fun?`Sounds like a random person to me! I've played many campaigns/leagues without any person preparing anything. No single person's responsibility that everyone has fun. Some digitally, some tabletop.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 12:01:55


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Baxx wrote:
Except the new books solve rule issues in the old books (or vice versa). This is a complete mess and every new book adds to it. I'm gonna play kill team for a while longer until this game settles down

Any chance you can stay in the KT threads instead of this one for a while? The relentless negativity is draining to read...

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Baxx wrote:
Who perpares everything? Who works to make sure you have fun?`Sounds like a random person to me!


Well then, ok.
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Dysartes wrote:
Baxx wrote:
Except the new books solve rule issues in the old books (or vice versa). This is a complete mess and every new book adds to it. I'm gonna play kill team for a while longer until this game settles down

Any chance you can stay in the KT threads instead of this one for a while? The relentless negativity is draining to read...

How about some news then:
Ganger advancement table in Outcast book is the incorrect version (BS/WS is 5 credits and Will/Int is 20 credits) copied from Gang War1 and Uprising, instead of the correct version from N18 rulebook.
   
Made in gb
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United Kingdom

Give your Gang a Few Underhive-Style Home Comforts with the Slopper and the Scabber - WarCom
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Shiny new models.










Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

Spoiler:



   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Is that stove powered by a fricking plasma pistol?!
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Yes. Yes it is.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Madness!
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







The Scabber sculpt is a fun one - a Necromunda version of the RE4 Merchant.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Forgeworld really has done a phenomenal job with all these Necromunda characters. There's just so much fun details, from the slobber finger protection to his plasma pistol stove.

The Scabber is great too. They both look like the fit in very very nicely with the new market terrain.

Also, is the chef's cleaver a rumor engine pic? It looks familiar, but they really haven't done too many FW RE pics

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 15:50:46


 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor





London

They're both great, characterful models.

(Also thanks for mentioning upfront they're FW WarCom team, that will cut down the thread drama 10% on it's own.)
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





They look cool.
A lot of good side npc characters coming, though not so usable in a gang (or don’t evoke the feel of a gang in action etc..)
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I respectfully disagree.

Necromunda is at its best when it’s a GM managed campaign.

Also, if players are WAACing Necromunda? I’d wager they’ve rather missed the point. Certainly I don’t think they’d much enjoy my take on it.

Necromunda is as much an RPG as it is a TTG. If you’re just playing to win, and not get involved in the story being told? You’re missing out on a load of the fun.

All just my opinion of course!

Sorry for derailing earlier, I invite you and everyone else to share their opinions on campaign balance here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/802228.page#11263850
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps





Warwickscire

 Kanluwen wrote:
Is that stove powered by a fricking plasma pistol?!


Get's hot!
   
Made in eg
[MOD]
Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt

Those are fantastic.

And props for spotting the plasma pistol

 
   
 
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