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came up on the tactics thread but essentially grinds down to:

DCA's have 2 power weapons

power weapons can be - axes, swords, maces, lances

rule book says to use whatever weapon the model is modeled as WYSIWYG essentially

DCA's don't come in the box with other options. Only swords are default on them in the box, either one big one or two smaller ones (more like daggers but w/e)

This can potentially be then said of any unit with a power weapon. Do you get options? Or you use whats in the box?

Point of debate:

Changing the sword for an axe, - is it modeling for advantage or just modeling with wargear options?

Power weapon means every power weapon. This said, the miniatures are mean to be played with the wargear they come, of course, modding is viable, but to a similar line of miniature, if it have a sword, is a sword. You can mod it to another sword, but not an axe.

At least, this is how I see it.

If the miniature bring an axe and a sword in the blister, it's would be different, but it doesn't.

To me if a unit's entry says it has a power weapon, or power weapons, you should be able to model it with sword, axe, or maul as you see fit.

@DakotaBlue: If miniatures are meant to be played with only with the wargear they come with, then many models will never be able to use potential wargear options since the kits don't come with them. The entry for DCA says that they have two power weapons, giving them the option to use whichever option that they are modelled with. To say that they can not be converted to use an option not included in the kit would be akin to saying that any kit that does not come with every wargear option is limited in the same way.

The entry for DCA says power weapon, not power sword. Other models have been FAQ'd to have a specific type of power weapon. DCA's have not.

If you want a power axe, then model it as an axe.

I would feel differently if GW didn't explicitly encourage people to buy modeling putty and sculpting tools to customize their own models.

You can model them with whatever kind of Power Weapon you want to.

They Simply have 2 power weapons, and those can be any of the 4 listed as power weapons.

Unless of course you are saying that The Blood Angels Death Company are limited to a Power Sword, as that is the only option included on their sprue...

FAQ went out of its way to state replace all instances of "power sword" with "power weapon".

I understand both sides of the argument, but I tend to think that due to the overall change to power weapons, a little remodeling to maintain the unit's effectiveness is not 'modeling for advantage' but modeling for preference.

IF power axes were simply better than swords in every respect, I might take issue with it, but it is a tradeoff - you're losing initiative to gain AP, and since, especially in the case of DCAs, initiative is so important, I'd be fine with an opponent making that change...

That being said, DCAs are modeled to have swords, they don't have wargear options either on their official models or in their entry or fluff (in the GK codex at least). So I can understand reservations players may have about that specific modification.

Overall, any argument for SM sargeants being able to select their power weapon should apply to DCA's with the following exception:: DCA's don't have the physical model for a power axe / lance / maul - but then again, they only have two gakky sculpts that are difficult to repose or resculpt anyway. It's not like GW can be expected to produce every possible variant for every model (combi-meltas anyone?)

If they intended them to only have power swords, then they should have listed their wargear as "power swords" rather than "power weapons". RAW, I really don't see an issue (provided you actually do model it with the respective weapon) and I really can't see it being a 'mistake' on the part of the author with regards to RAI.

Personally, I will feel a little dirty running around with one-axe, one-sword DCA... but it is such an incredibly good benefit, with no drawback, that I can't resist.

Is it modeling for advantage? Sure. But is it grossly gamebreaking modeling for advantage? I don't think so.

I would not lump someone who did this with someone who fields a prone Wraithlord or removes the wings from his Valkyrie. YMMV.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:Is it modeling for advantage? Sure.

No it is not modelling for advantage.

You are changing a model to give it wargear that it can legally have.

MFA would be modeling the DCA 1/2 inch tall claiming they are midgets then claiming 25% cover for being behind something that is 1/8th inch tall.

helium42 wrote:To me if a unit's entry says it has a power weapon, or power weapons, you should be able to model it with sword, axe, or maul as you see fit.

That's fine, but what rules support your assertion? None.

@DakotaBlue: If miniatures are meant to be played with only with the wargear they come with, then many models will never be able to use potential wargear options since the kits don't come with them. The entry for DCA says that they have two power weapons, giving them the option to use whichever option that they are modelled with. To say that they can not be converted to use an option not included in the kit would be akin to saying that any kit that does not come with every wargear option is limited in the same way.

This is a logical fallacy. All dogs are mammals, not all mammals are dogs.

You may modify any model to give it an option it is legally allowed to take. You may not modify a model if the modification alone provides an advantage.

In the case of power weapons, it is not about giving the model a power weapon, it is altering what weapon it has. This gives you an advantage obtained solely through modeling, and is therefore not allowed.

junk wrote:
IF power axes were simply better than swords in every respect, I might take issue with it, but it is a tradeoff - you're losing initiative to gain AP, and since, especially in the case of DCAs, initiative is so important, I'd be fine with an opponent making that change...

That's a good argument, however, in this case, the proposal is to replace one of the two power swords with an axe, giving the model a clear advantage - being able to pick whichever is situationaly optimal.

DeathReaper wrote:You can model them with whatever kind of Power Weapon you want to.

Cite rulebook?

Unless of course you are saying that The Blood Angels Death Company are limited to a Power Sword, as that is the only option included on their sprue...

Actually, yes, I think that's more than reasonable too. Some kits (Space Wolves) get axes. Some kits (Sisters, Chaos Termies) have power mauls. These reflect the character of these armies.

Blood Angels don't have axes on their sprue - so be it. Although junk's argument that having an axe, not a sword, is a tradeoff rather than a clear-cut advantage has some weight here.

--


I think it is entirely modeling for advantage and it's not difficult logic to follow.

They come with a sword. That's the only model available with that name, and it only has a sword. It would be more advantageous if they had a sword and an axe, because they'd have more options. In order to get them a sword and an axe, you have to alter the model that you can buy. Hence, if you replace one of their swords with an axe, you have gained an advantage through modeling.

To everyone who says that this should be allowed, there is no where in the rules that it says you can alter a model for a competitive advantage. The rules for power weapons don't say put whatever power weapon you want on them, they say "look at the model". Well, the model has swords. That's it. Just swords. All the concept art has just swords. All the fluff has just swords. The Inquisitor scale models have swords. There's no evidence to suggest that they should have anything but swords.

People say putting a model on a different sized base than it came with is advantageous, and this has a far more concrete application that that.

Redbeard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:You can model them with whatever kind of Power Weapon you want to.

Cite rulebook?

Page 61.

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the rnodel to tell which type of power weapon it has"

I use the DCA on the right of this Picture:



It only has 1 sword, and is not in itself WYSIWYG, so I have to add a Power Weapon to this model to make it WYSIWYG. I can put on another sword, an Axe, a Maul, or a lance, as per the rules.

Redbeard wrote:Actually, yes, I think that's more than reasonable too. Some kits (Space Wolves) get axes. Some kits (Sisters, Chaos Termies) have power mauls. These reflect the character of these armies.

Assault Squad sergeants get power axes. Tactical Marine Sergeants and Captains don't. How is that reflecting the character of the army?

To everyone who says that this should be allowed, there is no where in the rules that it says you can alter a model for a competitive advantage.

Sure... but you're allowed to select wargear options from the army list. The option for the DCA is a power weapon... and power weapons can be swords, axes or whatever.

The rules for power weapons don't say put whatever power weapon you want on them, they say "look at the model". Well, the model has swords.

One of them has a sword. The other has two knives or short swords that aren't actually powered.

How does it work with Lychguard - they have a 'hyperphase sword' which is a power weapon, can I then give them hyperphase axes?

Phototoxin wrote:How does it work with Lychguard - they have a 'hyperphase sword' which is a power weapon, can I then give them hyperphase axes?

To pre-empt the inevitable; No, the fact it is a Hyperphase Sword is not enough on it's own, or else the Eldritch Lance is erroneously missing the Lance rule from its profile.

As stated in the other thread though, the iBook codex entry for a Hyperphase sword says that it is Strength: As user and AP3, therefore model it however you want, it has a stated profile that you have to use.

Correct me if I am wrong but the DCA models were released well before the 6th edition rules for power weapons, so there was no need to include anything other than swords at the time.

The new rules for power weapons are exactly that, new rules, not 5th edition anymore. They are ap3 and come in 4 variates and effect every army, so everyone has the choice to take which version they want.

They have two power weapons (power weapons can be swords, axes etc) it does not say they both have to be the same type or anything

nohman wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:How does it work with Lychguard - they have a 'hyperphase sword' which is a power weapon, can I then give them hyperphase axes?

To pre-empt the inevitable; No, the fact it is a Hyperphase Sword is not enough on it's own, or else the Eldritch Lance is erroneously missing the Lance rule from its profile.

As stated in the other thread though, the iBook codex entry for a Hyperphase sword says that it is Strength: As user and AP3, therefore model it however you want, it has a stated profile that you have to use.

The ibook has no weight unless they're going to update the FAQ/errata.

tuiman wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but the DCA models were released well before the 6th edition rules for power weapons, so there was no need to include anything other than swords at the time.

True, there was no need.

tuiman wrote:The new rules for power weapons are exactly that, new rules, not 5th edition anymore. They are ap3 and come in 4 variates and effect every army, so everyone has the choice to take which version they want.

They have two power weapons (power weapons can be swords, axes etc) it does not say they both have to be the same type or anything

Actually they can be AP3 or AP2 depending on the type of Power Weapon.

It doesn't say you can modify the weapons, just look at what it has. Conversions are not allowed or supported by the rulebook.

The issue is nothing allows you to choose *ANY* powerweapon, just see what the model actually has.

I see swords and daggers... Swords are AP3, Daggers are close to swords.

Boils down to it will get clarified in the next 3 months one way or another... I feel a lot of cheaty people are going to rush out and modify models only to be nerfed. I would advise waiting a little bit because the rulebook tried to make an overarching rule to classify existing models opposed to FAQing every weapon in the game.

They failed horribly and probably would have been better clarifying who can do what.

The ibook has no weight unless they're going to update the FAQ/errata.

LOL, believe that if you will... it is not a reasonable position and will not be accepted anywhere. I am going to assume 99% of well-run indy events and community FAQs are going to accept any mods of the digital releases.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it weren't for the huge amount of tailoring it permits.

Playing against orks? Army-wide power mauls.
Playing against MEQ? Army-wide power swords.
Playing against TEQ? Army-wide power axes.

DarknessEternal wrote:

nohman wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:How does it work with Lychguard - they have a 'hyperphase sword' which is a power weapon, can I then give them hyperphase axes?

To pre-empt the inevitable; No, the fact it is a Hyperphase Sword is not enough on it's own, or else the Eldritch Lance is erroneously missing the Lance rule from its profile.

As stated in the other thread though, the iBook codex entry for a Hyperphase sword says that it is Strength: As user and AP3, therefore model it however you want, it has a stated profile that you have to use.

The ibook has no weight unless they're going to update the FAQ/errata.

Yeah, good luck with that opinion. It's an official Games Workshop authored Codex. It has just as much weight as your paper book, possibly more in fact, since it has already been updated for 6th edition and has the FAQ built in.

nkelsch wrote:It doesn't say you can modify the weapons, just look at what it has. Conversions are not allowed or supported by the rulebook.

The issue is nothing allows you to choose *ANY* powerweapon, just see what the model actually has.

In which case neither of the current DCA models are legal as one of them only has a single power sword, and the other doesn't have power weapons of any kind.

nkelsch wrote:It doesn't say you can modify the weapons, just look at what it has. Conversions are not allowed or supported by the rulebook.

The issue is nothing allows you to choose *ANY* powerweapon, just see what the model actually has.

I see swords and daggers... Swords are AP3, Daggers are close to swords.

For that model sure, I use the model on the right, which has only 1 power weapon. (The model on the left does not have any Power Weapons as those weapons have no power source.)

How should I go about giving another power weapon to that guy?

I just slung a Power Weapon onto the belt and called it a day.

Why can I not use a Power Axe/Maul/Lance/Sword for my model?

The wargear clearly says those guys have two Power Weapons, and Power Weapons are classified as whatever the model is carrying be it a Axe, Maul, Lance or Sword.

To say otherwise is to say that Riflemen Dreadnoughts are not legal because the Dreadnought is not supplied with Autocannons in the box.

Well except is someone does that is going to spend a fortune in minis $15 for 2 or invest in a ton of magnets. Either way as long as they are properly shown I wouldn't cre.

I have the option to give every Sternguard a combi melta. If you claim you can only arm a model with what it is supplied with that is impossible since you dont get enough in a box. I highly doubt anyone here is going to buy 10 boxes of Sternguard to " legally" give everyone in the squad one.

Sometimes you have to use a little common sense. DCAs are old models and probably won't be getting a resculpt to include the additional options until the SOB DEX is published for real.

DeathReaper wrote:

I just slung a Power Weapon onto the belt and called it a day.

Why can I not use a Power Axe/Maul/Lance/Sword for my model?

The wargear clearly says those guys have two Power Weapons, and Power Weapons are classified as whatever the model is carrying be it a Axe, Maul, Lance or Sword.

Good luck with that. Enjoy it while it lasts and enjoy arguments... conversions are not legal as it is a permissive ruleset. As soon as you rely on the nature of friendly gaming to allow conversions, good luck with the RAW of 'I can take any power weapon I model'

I don't believe that was what was intended, It appears as if they will eventually 'lock down' what specific models can have or what existing weapons are forced to 'count as' and this will all be a pointless debate.

The main issue is not with the people who model axes on their DCA... it is with the ones who won't and then claim because someone, somewhere can model it, they are allowed to proxy it.

I am going to go 'rule of cool' until all these units get nerfed. If you actually make the effort to make the model, then enjoy your advantage for however long it lasts. If you are going to say "oh orks? yeah, they are all mauls now" and not model squat, then I am not going to agree.

So Riflemen Dreadnoughts are not legal because the Dreadnought is not supplied with Autocannons in the box?

nkelsch wrote:Good luck with that. Enjoy it while it lasts and enjoy arguments... conversions are not legal as it is a permissive ruleset. As soon as you rely on the nature of friendly gaming to allow conversions, good luck with the RAW of 'I can take any power weapon I model'

This is the crux of the disagreement. You're seeing it as a conversion. Others are seeing it as modelling legally allowed wargear, and no more a conversion than giving a Space Marine Captain a power axe. Or at best, an allowable conversion, like giving a Space Marine Captain a thunderhammer.

If you disallow all conversion, you disallow a very large chunk of quite a few codexes. Requiring players to only use those options provided for in the model range is just lunacy.

Or if I use an AOBR Dread in my SM army I can't give it a Lascannon or ML since they only come with a MM

DeathReaper wrote:So Riflemen Dreadnoughts are not legal because the Dreadnought is not supplied with Autocannons in the box?

Yes... because nothing allows you to convert your models. Many of the rifelment dreds out there *ARE* illegal as the custom arms abuse LOS and shoulder mounts.

GW does provide legal autocannon arms... you get them from Forgeworld.

As soon as you convert something you enter into that area where you and your opponent have to agree on continuing the game. If someone feels you are taking advantage of an unclear rule to model for advantage they can complain or not play you. Nothing says all power weapons can be anyweapons... just that they are what the model is visually equipped with. People are going to look at stock model options for what they are eligible for.

We will see how GW handles it and if they actually intended all power weapons to be any weapons... we will also see how events handle it.

Right now:
Page 61.

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

I see only swords and sword-like weapons for DCA. Nothing says you may give any model any weapon. Going by GW's handling of LYNCHGUARD I expect that future rules and errata will lock down what weapons models can have.

If someone modeled a maul on a DCA at his house last week when he pulls it out of his case all I see is a maul. Looks legal to me.

Edit. Wouldn't using FW ACs be converting as you are adding a part not supplied with the model?

Redbeard wrote:
I think it is entirely modeling for advantage and it's not difficult logic to follow.

They come with a sword. That's the only model available with that name, and it only has a sword. It would be more advantageous if they had a sword and an axe, because they'd have more options. In order to get them a sword and an axe, you have to alter the model that you can buy. Hence, if you replace one of their swords with an axe, you have gained an advantage through modeling.

To everyone who says that this should be allowed, there is no where in the rules that it says you can alter a model for a competitive advantage. The rules for power weapons don't say put whatever power weapon you want on them, they say "look at the model". Well, the model has swords. That's it. Just swords. All the concept art has just swords. All the fluff has just swords. The Inquisitor scale models have swords. There's no evidence to suggest that they should have anything but swords.

People say putting a model on a different sized base than it came with is advantageous, and this has a far more concrete application that that.

Instead of the 1 sword, 1 axe combo, how would you feel if the player modeled 2 axes or 2 mauls instead? It keeps them to a single choice and each has their drawbacks and advantages.