Switch Theme:

Is this marine-GK list too assault oriented?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Navigator





Lost in Space

This list is designed to outmanuver and close with enemy forces. I'm not certain if it has the firepower to take out mulitple landraiders or monoliths. Or if it has the models to give it staying power.

Divergent Marines with Grey Knight Allies

Advantages
>Blessed be the warriors
>Suffer not the works of heretics
Drawbacks
>Flesh over Steel
>Die Standing

HQ (649)
-Librarian w/Terminator Command Squad (364)
 > Epistolary w/ Terminator Armor, FOTA, and FOTD
 > Terminator Command Squad w/ 4x marines and 2x assault cannons
-Grey Knight Brother Captain w/ Terminator Retinue (285)
 >Brother Captain w/ holocaust
 >Terminator Retinue w/ 4x marines and holocaust

Elites (482)

-Assault Squad w/ furious assault (241)
 > Vet sgt w/ powerfist
 > Squad w/ 7x marines and 2x plasma pistols
-Same as above (241)

Fast Attack  (453)
-Bike squadron (173)
 > Vet sgt w/ teleport homer and meltabombs
 > Squadron w/ 3x marines and 2x meltaguns
-Landspeeder Squadron (160)
 > Squadron w/ 2x tornadoes with assault cannons and h. bolters
-same as above (160)

Troops (266)
-Marine Squad w/ tankhunters (133)
 > Squad w/ 6x marines and 1x plasmagun and 1x lascannon
-same as above (133)

-The troops will target heavily armored threats.
-The bikers primary role is to safely deliver the terminators and to grab objectives. When opportunities present themselves the bikers will close to engage available armor targets.
-The landspeeders will rake large enemy formations and engage the rear of armored targets.
-The assault squads will act in concert with each other to decimate enemy troop formations.
-The terminator squads will break up large troop formations with the Grey Knights leading the assaults and the librarian command squad supporting their attacks.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Ok, for your GK squad. Let me ask you what happens if the squad's Holocaust causes a Perils of the Warp. I'll tell you what, their brains leak out their ears. There's 285 points down the drain. Sure, one of them might survive, but it's unlikely. With that in mind, I'd say drop the holocaust on squad.

Now then, you seem to be lacking in anti-tank support for a 1750 list. You've got a couple of meltaguns, meltabombs, and 2 Lascannons. 1/3 of your army is off the field, and that means that it's likely you'll be shot to pieces pretty quick. Then there's the fact that your Bikes are the only truly safe means of transporting your Terminators, once they're gone you've got the risky scatter.

As for having enough models, you're not doing too entirely bad.

Here's a question for you: what happens when you come across 'Nids, Orks, or Chaos? The basis of your army is what they want. Basically, you'd have a pretty hard go of it.

All of my comments are for worst-case scenario.
   
Made in us
Navigator





Lost in Space

Abael, thanks for responding. BTW its an 1850 list.

The perils of the warp risk to the squad for the second holocaust power is pretty high. I had to recheck just how bad. I'll think about dropping that one. If I do I may realign ten of those twenty points to buying teleport homers for the assault squad sergeants.

The getting shot to pieces is something most armies worry about. I realize keeping such a large reserve could hamper me in the first couple turns. But then those forces that I do have, with the exception of the las-plas squads, are all fairly mobile forces.  I hope to be able to use this manuverabilty to provide some degree of tactical protection. The first turns will be the hardest against a distinctly shooty force like iron warriors or IG. My forces should do fairly well against moderate amounts of ranged firepower.

As to attacking an assault oriented force like the 'Nids, Orks, and Chaos my assault forces are fairly well armed for the task. The GK termies can hold their own against virtually all comers w/ str 6 power weapons and at least one str 5 ap - template to boot. The Librarian's squad would normally teleport into a support position for the GK termies to add firepower and powerfists to the attack. These two squads main weakness is their lack of bodies. The two assault squads have the benefits of furious assault, one power fist each, and some bodies to lose. I'm mostly worried about being heavily outnumbered, thus most of my force is fast or is teleported into a key area.

What do you think a wily assault oriented opponent would bring to the table that would be so effective against this force? demons? nobz? hordes of gaunts?

In other words I hope to use my fast forces (including my deployment order) to outmanuver my opponent and engage them on my terms.

The worst case is good to think about, thanks

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Right behind you

Although you have a surprising number of high quality troops I agree with abael on a couple of points.

1. Too many troops off the board. I recently played in a RTT and one of my opponents (who admittedly was pretty new to the game) had 2 terminator squads off the board and i tore him up severely with assault marines, shooty dreads, and Las/ plas squads -mostly before his terminators showed up.

2. Anti- tank ability: my advice is to take a shooty scout squad (with missile launcher) or another Las/plas squad. this would also help with composition scores as some tournaments are concerned with what percentage of your army troops take up.

I would, however say that holocaust could be useful (as the chance of getting perils from the one time your'e likely to use it in a single game is very poor) but I probably wouldn't take it on both the squad and the brother captain. I woud suggest giving the brother captain hammerhand instead so he can deal with tanks .

Anyway, hope that helps.
   
Made in us
Navigator





Lost in Space

Revised list.
>Dropped bike squad;
>added one terminator to librarian's squad;
>replaced brother captain's holocaust with hammerhand;
>added teleport homers to assault squad vets;
>added one more las plas-squad.

The number of units remains the same. But increases dedicated anti-tank firepower. Increases chances of a successful safe teleport.

Divergent Marines with Grey Knight Allies

Advantages
>Blessed be the warriors
>Suffer not the works of heretics
Drawbacks
>Flesh over Steel
>Die Standing

HQ (689)
-Librarian w/Terminator Command Squad (404)
 > Epistolary w/ Terminator Armor, FOTA, and FOTD
 > Terminator Command Squad w/ 5x marines and 2x assault cannons
-Grey Knight Brother Captain w/ Terminator Retinue (275)
 >Brother Captain w/ hammerhand
 >Terminator Retinue w/ 4x marines and holocaust

Elites (482)

-Assault Squad w/ furious assault (241)
 > Vet sgt w/ powerfist, teleport homer
 > Squad w/ 7x marines and 2x plasma pistols
-Same as above (241)

Fast Attack  (
320)
-Landspeeder Squadron (160)
 > Squadron w/ 2x tornadoes with assault cannons and h. bolters
-same as above (160)

Troops (399)
-Marine Squad w/ tankhunters (133)
 > Squad w/ 6x marines and 1x plasmagun and 1x lascannon
-same as above (133)
-same as above (133)
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




The Hammer

My three cents:

$0.01: I'd suggest buying Holocaust for ONLY the Brother-Captain, so that in the event of a 2 or a 12 you lose only one figure. Rather than Hammer Hand, I'd vote for a single Thunderhammer specialist in the squad.

$0.02: Conditional on there not being insane numbers of Monoliths and whether you would play this in a "2+ non-troops =bad" comp tourney: Having both Tank Hunters and Furious Charge on all your power armour adds up to 102 points, almost enough for another lasplas. I'd say keep one squad of Assault Marines as Elite, make one Fast Attack, and get rid of Suffer not the Works of Heretics and that Terminator you just added to add a fourth troops choice sans plasma, floating 23 points total including getting rid of Hammerhand. Cutting a single GK Terminator takes you to 66, just enough for an elite Inquisitor with Psycannon and Emperor's Tarot.

$0.03: If you ARE paranoid about 'liths and ARE considering playing this in some tourney that would allow it, Sacred Incense would be a better way to free up those ten points you freed up getting rid of Hammerhand.

edit - the combo of fear+choppy GKs looks like it could have some weird synergy...you'll have to play that very carefully. Ideally you can scare the enemy into a crossfire, but played/rolled poorly it could also scare them just out of assault range of the GK. Grandmaster + Fury Codicier seems a little safer to me - like holding your opponent with one hand while the other winds back for a knockout blow - but also potentially less fun.


When soldiers think, it's called routing. 
   
Made in us
Navigator





Lost in Space


Thanks wight widow, those are some interesting ideas. Dropping hammerhand and replacing it with a thunder hammer specialist is a cool idea, while putting holocaust back in the hands of the captain. It solves the problems of both anti-armor and perils of the warp and it costs less to boot.

Dude! I totally missed sacred incense. -1 initiative to all chaos models assaulting this unit for only 10 points. Rock on! Definitely gonna trade hammerhand for that.

I've been toying with the idea of dropping furious on one of the assault squads but I fear that would make my opponent's choice of who to shoot, as they both hurtle towards 'em at breakneck speeds, all too obvious. I'm not too hot about inquistors all around; it would be a non scoring unit and he's slow as infantry unlike the rest of my attack forces.

I am tempted to try to tap my forces for either another scoring unit or boost an existing unit's strength. Either by upgrading the brother-capt. to a grandmaster or increasing the assault squads to units of 10 or creating a fourth las-plas squad.

Some realigning and an indepth recheck of my calculations convinced me to: -downgrade the epistolary to a codicer and give him a stormbolter;
-drop the last terminator
-make all the las-plas squads 5x marines, but keep two as tank hunters.
-replace hammerhand w/ sacred incense
-put holocaust back on the brother captain
-give one GK terminator a thunder hammer and storm shield

This keeps my overall structure relatively intact but increases my heavy hitting power and puts a damper on chaos assaults

revises the list to 1850pts
Divergent Marines with Grey Knight Allies

Advantages
>Blessed be the warriors
>Suffer not the works of heretics
Drawbacks
>Flesh over Steel
>Die Standing

HQ (610)
-Librarian w/Terminator Command Squad (335)
 > Codicer w/ Terminator Armor, stormbolter, and FOTD
 > Terminator Command Squad w/ 4x marines and 2x assault cannons
-Grey Knight Brother Captain w/ Terminator Retinue (275)
 >Brother Captain w/ sacred incense and holocaust
 >Terminator Retinue w/ 4x marines including 1 w/ thunder hammer

Elites (490)

-Assault Squad w/ furious assault (245)
 > Vet sgt w/ powerfist, teleport homer
 > Squad w/ 7x marines and 2x plasma pistols
-Same as above (245)

Fast Attack  (
320)
-Landspeeder Squadron (160)
 > Squadron w/ 2x tornadoes with assault cannons and h. bolters
-same as above (160)

Troops (430)
-Marine Squad w/ tankhunters (115)
 > Squad w/ 5x marines and 1x plasmagun and 1x lascannon
-same as above (115)
-Marine Squad (100)
 > Squad w/ 5x marines and 1x plasmagun and 1x lascannon
-same as above (100)
 

   
Made in us
Navigator





Lost in Space

Derek the savings you speak of for a GK terminator squad when compared to a standard terminator squad doesn't really exist consider a standard terminator squad with 5x marines at 40  pts/each and two are equipped with assault cannons at 20 pts/each. That runs 240 for the squad. A similar GK terminator squad includes a brother-captain at 61pts and 4x marines at 46pts each. That runs 245 for the squad.

The main difference is in their strengths. In close combat, a standard terminator squad (now called 'A sqd') reliably brings 8 powerfist attacks and 2 power weapons attacks. These are better thought of as 8 attacks: str 8, int 1; and 2 attacks: str 4, int 1 all with no armor saves. The upside is the majority of attacks will instant-kill characters and wound on a 2+ as well as make effective anti-armor weapons, the downside is that every thing else hits them first. A GK terminator squad (now called 'GK sqd') brings 11 attacks: str 6, int 4 all with no armor saves. For no extra cost any GK sqd member may exchange his weapon for a thunder hammer converting 2 attacks from str 6, int 4 to str 8, int 1. The upside is that the majority of attacks will hit in inititive order and will wound T4 models on a 2+, the downside is that they are less effective anti-armor weapons. Now to sum this up, A sqd is better in close combat against very high toughness models and heavier armor, but because they attack last in most cases they could lose models quickly when they are out numbered. GK sqd would likely defeat A sqd in close combat since they would attack first and still wound on a 2+. This makes GK terminators very effective Terminator and marine killers in close combat.

GK sqd has some options that make them even more effective at close combat. The holocaust option (20pts) gives a str5 ap- pie plate at int1, thus allowing them to reduce forces that may significantly outnumber them. The sacred incense option  (10pts) reduces the int of all chaos models in an assault by -1 thus allowing them to strike first against chaos models that would normally attack simultaneously. Now they are exceptionally good at killing Chaos terminators and marines.

A sqd's assault cannons provide them some effective short to mid-range firepower that is definitely lacking in the current GK sqd's configuration. The GK sqd may buy upto two psycannons at 25pts/each which provide a similar level of fire support, but I choose to focus my GK sqd on their real strengths, killing heavily armored T4 models in close combat.

So in my list the Grey Knights fill a close combat niche. Only Assault terminators equipped with pairs of lightning claws come close and even then they only wound T4 models on a 4+ (rerollable),  granted they have 15 attacks vs the GK sqd's 11. But they don't have the special rules (Aegis, Shrouding, and Fearless) or the options available to Grey Knights.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





Wilmington DE

In your Assault Marine squad: lose the 'fist for lightning claws (to take advantage of the I bump) and replace the plasma pistols with flamers. They won't overheat, you won't miss the extra two attacks when you charge, and they make it a really ace counterassault unit. Alternatively, lose Furious charge and tank hunter, and add a fourth las/plas squad at 5 guys (as suggested above)

I'd also lose the second psychic power on your Grey Knights altogether, and either squeeze in a thunder hammer (as you did in your last rewrite), or lose a guy to pop an inquisitor with tarot of go-first.


Guinness: for those who are men of the cloth and football fans, but not necessarily in that order.

I think the lesson here is the best way to enjoy GW's games is to not use any of their rules.--Crimson Devil 
   
Made in us
Navigator





Lost in Space

syr8766 thanks for responding,

I originally had power swords on my assault sgts. for the Int bump. I considered lightning claws but they cost too much and having one reduces the number of attacks. So I considered power fists when I thought about fighting big nasties with the squad. This went well with the plasma pistols. Together they make the squad adept at fighting well armored infantry. Flamers would work well with the lightning claws or power weapon route but they cost more than the pistols do. I'm not too concerned about the 'gets hot' checks with a 3+ save and the fact that the pistols will maybe get fired twice each.

The last rewrite I posted is pretty much what I'm planning on fielding at this point unless somebody comes up with another really wicked addition or a neato item/power swap thats adds omph! (Especially since I've begun modelling the units).

Even though I've got duplicate units I've been working develop and flesh out unit themes within the force. This is resulting in some pretty extensive conversion work, which I'll post pics of into the modeling forum after adepticon. To give y'all an idea. I'm putting together the second assault squad now. They all wear horsehair brushes on their helms, carry medival weapons and pistols, wear shredded aprons, and are heavily remodeled to look like they are running and attacking in full stride. The grey knights are based off plastic terminator models with swapped out chaos warrior helms and have been layered in green stuff latin etchings, tabards, and inquistorial insignia.

   
 
Forum Index » 40K Army Lists
Go to: