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If a Space marine army takes the Master of the Forge as a HQ choise, can the player take GK ally dreads as either Elite or Heavy Support choise too in addition to space marine dreadnoughts being Elite or Heavy support?

I don't see why not. As long as the GK Codex has either a Dreadnought, Venerable Dreadnought, or Ironclad Dreadnought. I thought they had Dreadknights instead of Dreadnoughts?

They have Dreadnoughts and Venerables.

masquerade81 wrote:If a Space marine army takes the Master of the Forge as a HQ choise, can the player take GK ally dreads as either Elite or Heavy Support choise too in addition to space marine dreadnoughts being Elite or Heavy support?

I would say no. The Master of the Forge is chosen from one Codex using the primary detachment FOC. The allied GK are taken from a different Codex using the allied detachment FOC. The effects of characters from one Codex/FOC do not generally transfer to the second Codex/FOC without explicit permission.

PanzerLeader wrote:I would say no. The Master of the Forge is chosen from one Codex using the primary detachment FOC. The allied GK are taken from a different Codex using the allied detachment FOC. The effects of characters from one Codex/FOC do not generally transfer to the second Codex/FOC without explicit permission.

If this were true why would GW specify only SOME of the HQ special rules only apply to units chosen from C:SM but not others? The fact is that since the restriction is placed on only some rules then the others are allowed to be taken advantage of by the Allied FOC.

However, I have to change my opinion in this. In this case since GK are not BB with Marines, only AoC, then they would not benefit since they are considered enemy units.

Captain Antivas wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:I would say no. The Master of the Forge is chosen from one Codex using the primary detachment FOC. The allied GK are taken from a different Codex using the allied detachment FOC. The effects of characters from one Codex/FOC do not generally transfer to the second Codex/FOC without explicit permission.

If this were true why would GW specify only SOME of the HQ special rules only apply to units chosen from C:SM but not others? The fact is that since the restriction is placed on only some rules then the others are allowed to be taken advantage of by the Allied FOC.

However, I have to change my opinion in this. In this case since GK are not BB with Marines, only AoC, then they would not benefit since they are considered enemy units.

Even if they were BB, how can the Master of the Forge (who is in one Force Org chart linked to one Codex) modify the army selection criteria for a second Codex in a different FOC? The MoF allows SM dreadnoughts to be taken as HS. The exact rule is "If you include a Master of the Forge in your army, Dreadnoughts, Venerable Dreadnoughts and Ironclad Dreadnoughts may be taken as Heavy Support choices as well as Elite choices." In the 6th edition context, an army refers to the detachment/FOC that a codex is chosen from. Thus, the MoF modifies only dreadnoughts taken in his primary detachment.

Cite a rule that supports your claim. My claim is supported by the FAQ, what rule do you have?

The rule doesn't say SM Dreadnoughts are allowed as HS and Elite, it says Dreadnoughts are. Unless it is specific to SM it applies to all Dreadnoughts, including Dreadnoughts chosen from C:BA. (Note I mean units named Dreadnoughts and ONLY Dreadnoughts, no Furiosos)

Captain Antivas wrote:Cite a rule that supports your claim. My claim is supported by the FAQ, what rule do you have?

The rule doesn't say SM Dreadnoughts are allowed as HS and Elite, it says Dreadnoughts are. Unless it is specific to SM it applies to all Dreadnoughts, including Dreadnoughts chosen from C:BA. (Note I mean units named Dreadnoughts and ONLY Dreadnoughts, no Furiosos)

There's one problem I see with this, the army construction rules don't cross over from the primary detachment to the allied detachment. We have to have permission for the rule to allow it to function for allied detachments, rather than "it doesn't say I can't." That argument has been tried before, and always fails since we need permission to do something, rather than a rules loophole/omission. Show where the rule specifically says it functions for allied detachments. Until that point we have to assume that the master of the forge will only ever modify his own detachment.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Cite a rule that supports your claim. My claim is supported by the FAQ, what rule do you have?

The rule doesn't say SM Dreadnoughts are allowed as HS and Elite, it says Dreadnoughts are. Unless it is specific to SM it applies to all Dreadnoughts, including Dreadnoughts chosen from C:BA. (Note I mean units named Dreadnoughts and ONLY Dreadnoughts, no Furiosos)

There's one problem I see with this, the army construction rules don't cross over from the primary detachment to the allied detachment. We have to have permission for the rule to allow it to function for allied detachments, rather than "it doesn't say I can't." That argument has been tried before, and always fails since we need permission to do something, rather than a rules loophole/omission. Show where the rule specifically says it functions for allied detachments. Until that point we have to assume that the master of the forge will only ever modify his own detachment.

Thank you for saying it more eloquantly than I did.

I am not making the argument "it doesn't say I can't". I am making the argument that the FAQ says only certain things are limited to units taken from my Codex, and this is not one of them. So, show me where in the BRB or Codex that these things (as I am referring to more than just the MotF but Khan and any Captain on a bike allowing Bikes to be taken as troops and so on and so forth) are only limited to units chosen from C:SM, otherwise the permission is granted by the FAQ. I have an official rules document giving me permission. If it says elsewhere that I cannot do it then the FAQ being silent is not relevant as that was not changed. Until you can show me where it says I cannot, the FAQ says I can.

And for more fun, to support my views, BRB page 112 "Battle Brothers have utter trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of their own forces...Battle Brothers are treated as 'friendly units' from all points of view."

Not some points of view, not in some things, in all points of view they are the same. Show me where it says army construction rules don't cross over. I have permission from two sources. Permissive ruleset satisfied.

Captain Antivas wrote:I am not making the argument "it doesn't say I can't". I am making the argument that the FAQ says only certain things are limited to units taken from my Codex, and this is not one of them. So, show me where in the BRB or Codex that these things (as I am referring to more than just the MotF but Khan and any Captain on a bike allowing Bikes to be taken as troops and so on and so forth) are only limited to units chosen from C:SM, otherwise the permission is granted by the FAQ. I have an official rules document giving me permission. If it says elsewhere that I cannot do it then the FAQ being silent is not relevant as that was not changed. Until you can show me where it says I cannot, the FAQ says I can.

And for more fun, to support my views, BRB page 112 "Battle Brothers have utter trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of their own forces...Battle Brothers are treated as 'friendly units' from all points of view."

Not some points of view, not in some things, in all points of view they are the same. Show me where it says army construction rules don't cross over. I have permission from two sources. Permissive ruleset satisfied.

The Allies section is completely irrelevant to army list construction. All levels of allies are certainly part of your army when you build an army list. The question is wether a special army list construction feature transfers from one Codex to another. The detachment rules on page 109 clearly state that your allied and primary detachments must be chosen from different codexes. The MotF and Biker Captain change the normal Force Org slot for units in their army (Dreads to Heavy, Bikes to Troops). These are not character specific rules like the ones in the FAQ. Instead, they are Codex specific rules that explain how to do army list construction when using that Codex. If you look in C:SM, neither "Mounted Assault" nor "Master of the Armory" are special rules for the Bike Captain or the MotF. Instead, they are stand alone rules in the army list section that tell you how to build the army. There is nothing in the rules that suggests a codex specific army construction rule for one detachment can be transferred to the codex used to construct the allied detachment.

So what you are saying is from this point of view you are not considering them to be friendly units?

I'm saying the level of allies is irrelevant when you are building the army list itself. The "Choosing your Army" section tell you to choose one Codex to legally build your primary detachment and gives you the option to select a second Codex to build your allied detachment out of so long as the sum of all detachments (primary, allied, fortification) does not exceed the points total agreed upon for the game. The "Lord of the Armoury" and "Mounted Assault" rules change how you can legally build an army out of Codex Space Marines. If you look at the MotF army list entry, the only special rules listed for him are ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, IC, Blessing of the Omnissiah, and Bolster Defences. The ability to take Dreads as HS is not one of the MotF's special rules. It is a unique army construction rule in the Codex that is triggered by purchasing an MotF. Mounted Assault and the Bike Captain work the same way. There is no precedent for applying the army list construction rules from one Codex to another.

There was never the opportunity to do so in previous editions so of course there is no precedence. Just because this has never come up before doesn't automatically make it not allowed.

My point is that the FAQ does not provide a valid precedent either. The FAQ only addresses special rules belonging to models and how they interact with other models on the table top. This is the same area addressed by the "Allies" rule section. In other to show how you can use the unique army construction rules from one Codex and apply them when building another detachment from a different Codex, you need to be able to cite a rule explicitly allowing you to do so.

You can't place an arbitrary restriction without rules support or precedent to do so. Its a two way street.

Ok, here is my summary:

Codexes(pg 108): "Within the pages of each codex, you'll find everything you need to know about that faction. An important part of this is the army list, which will let you transform your collection of Citadel miniatures into a Warhammer 40,000 army."

Primary Detachments (pg 109): "All of the units in your primary detachment must be from the same codex."

Allied Detachments (pg 109): "As with the primary detachment, all units in the allied detachment must be chosen from the same codex, and this must be a different codex to the one used for the primary detachment."

The BRB clearly identifies that each Codex tells you how to legally build an army for one faction and then further specifices that you must use two different codexes (i.e. two different rule sets) when building your primary and allied detachments. Since the rules in question are specific to how you build a legal army list for one faction (Codex Marines), they essentially form restrictions on how you build a legal army (i.e. Bikes are fast unless you have a bike mounted Captain and the squad is over 5 models). There is nothing in the BRB or the Codex that would allow you to use these rules/restrictions when buying units in a seperate detachment from a seperate codex.

I am not seeing how saying the only way to take units from other codices is to take an allied detachment limits the special rules to my codex only. Believe it or not it is a special rule. It is a rule that not everyone has that affects how the game is played so it is a special rule. It doesn't have to be listed under special rules to be a special rule.

It is not a special rule per say. It is a restriction on how you can legally build a Space Marine army using Codex Space Marines. You cannot legally take a Dreadnought as a HS choice without first including a MotF. It is a unique restriction to a particular codex. When you use an additional codex to field allies, you must abide by all the restrictions contained inside that codex. You cannot use the army list restrictions from one codex to change the army list restrictions in a second codex.

PanzerLeader wrote:You cannot use the army list restrictions from one codex to change the army list restrictions in a second codex.

This is correct.

The Codexes all use the term "Army" to reference the units contained within that particular codex.

Any reference about a MotF making all dreadnoughts in the "army" able to be taken as Heavy and elites, by the context of the SM Codex, only refers to the Dreads from the SM Codex.

I find it funny DeathReaper that context means everything to you, and context implies unavoidable rules that are not explicitly written down until it is inconvenient to you and then context means nothing. Let's face it, you are either wrong here or you are wrong about Hard to Hit. You can't have it both ways.

Remainder of post redacted by Mannahnin. Keep it polite folks, or don't post.

Captain Antivas wrote:I find it funny DeathReaper that context means everything to you, and context implies unavoidable rules that are not explicitly written down until it is inconvenient to you and then context means nothing. Let's face it, you are either wrong here or you are wrong about Hard to Hit. You can't have it both ways.


Remainder of post redacted by Mannahnin. Keep it polite folks, or don't post.

How about we follow the rules of the forum, and leave out the personal attacks. Thanks.


The SM Codex refers to "Army" as being the units contained within the SM Codex. several references to that fact are abundantly scattered throughout the SM Codex.

Captain Antivas wrote:I am not making the argument "it doesn't say I can't". I am making the argument that the FAQ says only certain things are limited to units taken from my Codex, and this is not one of them. So, show me where in the BRB or Codex that these things (as I am referring to more than just the MotF but Khan and any Captain on a bike allowing Bikes to be taken as troops and so on and so forth) are only limited to units chosen from C:SM, otherwise the permission is granted by the FAQ. I have an official rules document giving me permission. If it says elsewhere that I cannot do it then the FAQ being silent is not relevant as that was not changed. Until you can show me where it says I cannot, the FAQ says I can.

And for more fun, to support my views, BRB page 112 "Battle Brothers have utter trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of their own forces...Battle Brothers are treated as 'friendly units' from all points of view."

Not some points of view, not in some things, in all points of view they are the same. Show me where it says army construction rules don't cross over. I have permission from two sources. Permissive ruleset satisfied.

First off, that's exactly what you're saying. You're saying that the MotF wasn't amended like the others (it doesn't say I can't apply it to both FOC), so it must be able to do so (so I can). Combine the two parenthetics and it forms the core of your argument, something that time and again has been a wrongful argument. You don't have an official rules document giving you permission, you have an official rules document as a source of, everything else has been amended, but he hasn't. For your argument to stand up the Master of the forge's rule must explicitly state, this applies to all allied detachments, it doesn't.

You say you want rules supporting this side, I'll be happy to provide one, page 109 under the Partial force organization charts heading, "If your codex contains the primary detachment section of the Force Organization chart, the allied detachment and fortification sections will not be present, as individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units or fortifications." Notice that the rules do not contain rules for allied units or fortifications. That means the C:SM MotF modifies the slots of his detachment, but not the slots of an allied detachment since C:SM does not contain rules for allied units that means he cannot modify C:BA to include dreadnoughts in their elites slot rather than just heavy. Some rules that take effect at the start of the game can certainly cross over, if the rulebook states that it can, but before the game since the individual codices do not contain rules for allied units (or fortifications) we cannot apply that rule to an allied list.

Lone Dragoon wrote:You say you want rules supporting this side, I'll be happy to provide one, page 109 under the Partial force organization charts heading, "If your codex contains the primary detachment section of the Force Organization chart, the allied detachment and fortification sections will not be present, as individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units or fortifications." Notice that the rules do not contain rules for allied units or fortifications. That means the C:SM MotF modifies the slots of his detachment, but not the slots of an allied detachment since C:SM does not contain rules for allied units that means he cannot modify C:BA to include dreadnoughts in their elites slot rather than just heavy. Some rules that take effect at the start of the game can certainly cross over, if the rulebook states that it can, but before the game since the individual codices do not contain rules for allied units (or fortifications) we cannot apply that rule to an allied list.

This is what I was looking for, thank you. That is a rules quote I missed that refutes my opinion. So I retract my previous opinion and accept that I was wrong. Imagine that. And I am mature enough to admit it.