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A Necron C'Tan upgrade allows you to redeploy D3 units before the start of the game, including bringing in units in reserves.

The rule for flyers is: Flyers must begin the game as Reserves ( p.80 )

Can you use this power to bring D3 Flyers on board.

I can see this going either way... It did begin the game in reserve, but then the magical powers did their thang and so on...

NB- Cheating-in is MTG slang, not meant as actual cheating.

Yes you can do it. The rule specifically says you manifest it after everything has been deployed and scout moves made. The flyer is in reserves and the rule lets you pull them out and redeploy them on the board. I see no reason why this would not apply to a flyer.

Captain Antivas wrote:Yes you can do it. The rule specifically says you manifest it after everything has been deployed and scout moves made. The flyer is in reserves and the rule lets you pull them out and redeploy them on the board. I see no reason why this would not apply to a flyer.

Because it does not allow you to break the rule that flyers must always "begin the game in reserves" pg80. You still have to be deployed legally.

Hm....thats an interesting thought. I mean, they DID start in reserves, they were then moved from there by a special rule... Hm....I'd say it was legal

Azrell wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Yes you can do it. The rule specifically says you manifest it after everything has been deployed and scout moves made. The flyer is in reserves and the rule lets you pull them out and redeploy them on the board. I see no reason why this would not apply to a flyer.

Because it does not allow you to break the rule that flyers must always "begin the game in reserves" pg80. You still have to be deployed legally.

2 things:

Codex trumps rulebook.
Specific trumps general.

The flyer begins the game in reserve. It is then legally moved out of reserves by a specific special rule in a codex.

What are you trumping? does the codex say you ignore deployment rules when redeploying the units? Your redeploying them not putting them anywhere you want.

plus the flyer rules specifically say they "must begin the game in reserve" not they must be deployed in reserve... so you could change them from reg reserves to deep strike reserves.

Put that pg7 bs away. When you find yourself referring to it you already know your wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iGuy91 wrote:Hm....thats an interesting thought. I mean, they DID start in reserves, they were then moved from there by a special rule... Hm....I'd say it was legal

The flyer rule states they "must begin the game in reserves" so of they are on the table at the beginning of turn 1, then it wasn't legal.

This is really a matter of when the game "begins".
If the game begins at or immediately after deployment it's legal.
If the game begins at the start of the first game turn, it's illegal because the flyers would not be in reserve at the time.

I can't find a rule that explicitly states this, but I think that the game begins at the start of the first game turn.

It specifically says that you use the ability to put units into and pull units out of reserves. RAW wise I do not think there is an argument against this, and actually makes the ability useful and worth it's points.

While you can bring it out of reserves, as a redployment, this is *different* to the flyer requirement that it begins the GAME in reserve.

You dont have a specific override of the flyer rules.

Not true. It does 'begin' in reserve. The 'game' starts when you begin rolling for terrain placement and who goes first. If the requirement was that it may not be deployed on turn 1, or if it stated that it must begin in reserve during the first player turn then it could not be done. It doesn't, it states game and the game begins before it has the opportunity to be redeployed.

The game begins on turn 1. See Page 122 "Game Length"

The BATTLE begins when you roll for deployment map, mission etc, but the GAME is defined on page 122

So could Lady Malys do the same thing?
It says at the start of the game you can redeploy D3 units...

No, because then you would not have started the game in reserve.

Azrell wrote:What are you trumping? does the codex say you ignore deployment rules when redeploying the units? Your redeploying them not putting them anywhere you want.

plus the flyer rules specifically say they "must begin the game in reserve" not they must be deployed in reserve... so you could change them from reg reserves to deep strike reserves.

Put that pg7 bs away. When you find yourself referring to it you already know your wrong.

I don't even know what to say to this. This is quite possibly the worst argument I have heard on this, and any, forum ever. And I have heard some pretty bad arguments. Just ignore that rule printed in the rulebook because when you use the printed rule you are already wrong. You cannot be seriously saying that a rule in the rulebook can just be ignored because you don't like it.

There is a conflict of rules. How do we resolve conflicts? By following the rules on page 7. Of the book of rules. Not the book of suggestions, rules.

Of course, I'd say you're not interpretating it correctly. It says specific overrides general, and I'd say that the rule forcing fliers to start in reserve is more specific than a rule that allows you to pull units out of reserve.

Further, it doesn't give you permission to break the fliers must start the game in reserve rule anyways.

Ricter wrote:Of course, I'd say you're not interpretating it correctly. It says specific overrides general, and I'd say that the rule forcing fliers to start in reserve is more specific than a rule that allows you to pull units out of reserve.

Further, it doesn't give you permission to break the fliers must start the game in reserve rule anyways.

False. All flyers start the game in reserves. This is a rule that applies to all models of the flyer type. This is a general rule. The specific Necrons rule located in the codex allows you to take something that is in Reserves and pull it out of Reserves. The armies are deployed, the scouts have made their moves, the game begins and the C'tan interjects using his rule first.

I think since both trigger at the same time the player gets to choose which is triggered first.
We are in Start of the Game phase:
- Redeploy D3 units
- Flyers must start in reserves

So if the choice of order was:
1. Start of game
2. Flyers start in reserves
3. Redeploy D3 units
Then they would have started in reserves but then pulled out in the same phase.
And this would be legal since it did start in reserves and redeployed afterwards.

The C'tn rule states that 'after all forces have been deployed and all Scout moves made , , , redeploy this many [d3] units subject to the normal deployment rules for the mission

i think that means you can't pull flyers out of reserve because under normal deployment they must start in reserve.

How about Lady Malys then?
Her rules are after deployment at the start of the game

Lady Malys' rule does indeed say 'after both sides have deployed at the start of the game'. However that does not necessarily mean that normal deployment restrictions are overridden. It's not mentioned in the FAQ either (EDIT: though the FAQ does say that redeployed units may not deploy outside their deployment zone, which personally I think is an indicator that the rule is meant to work like the Ctan's)

I think you could read into the fact that the C'tan does make a specific mention of normal deployment restrictions not being overridden to assume the same is true for Malys. Of course one could argue the other way too, but personally I think it's fairly clear that moving flyers onto the board is not an intended part of the special rules in question.

So currently by RAW, Yes for Lady Malys and No for C'tan then?

I would agree that it probably wasn't meant to be written this way but this would be valid though.

I'm not sure about Malys being able to do that as her rule actually says 'may deploy d3 units in his army, including pacing them in reserve'

Nothing about bringing reserves on.

it says "redeploy D3 units the army" which the army would include everything on the list.

No. it says 'd3 units in his army, including placing them into reserve'.

Captain Antivas wrote:False. All flyers start the game in reserves. This is a rule that applies to all models of the flyer type. This is a general rule. The specific Necrons rule located in the codex allows you to take something that is in Reserves and pull it out of Reserves. The armies are deployed, the scouts have made their moves, the game begins and the C'tan interjects using his rule first.

Great, you can manage to call one rule generic and one rule specific to suit the result you want.

Technically, one could argue that since any (or nearly all) units start in Reserves and thus could be targeted by the Necrons rule, it is more general.

Again, it doesn't say that you get to ignore flyer restrictions, so you can't. Look at Assault Ramps with Outflanking, for example. Since the Assault Ramps don't say you can ignore the restrictions from Outflanking, you can't.

the entire quote:
"After both sides have been deployed at the start of the game, the Dark Eldar player may REDEPLOY D3 unit in his army, including placing them in reserve."

I personally can't justify how redeploy would work. Would redeploy itself include everything? if not then I guess you can't pull stuff out

Captain Antivas wrote:I don't even know what to say to this. This is quite possibly the worst argument I have heard on this, and any, forum ever. And I have heard some pretty bad arguments. Just ignore that rule printed in the rulebook because when you use the printed rule you are already wrong. You cannot be seriously saying that a rule in the rulebook can just be ignored because you don't like it.

There is a conflict of rules. How do we resolve conflicts? By following the rules on page 7. Of the book of rules. Not the book of suggestions, rules.

One rule saying you're allowed to do something and another saying you are not allowed to do something are not conflicting when it comes to rules. One is a permission and the other is a restriction, and the restriction always takes precedence (unless the permission specifically mentions that it overrides the restriction).

Otherwise you have situations where a codex says that a model has a special move that they're allowed to make in the movement phase (given permission). However, then you have situations in the core rules where a model is not allowed to move for some reason, like because they went to ground (a restriction). The restriction always takes precedence over a permission or else then any special move would be able to ignore a restriction against moving, etc.

The whole page 7 rule is not carte blanche to ignore restrictions simply because they're found in the main rules. There must be an actual conflict for that rule to apply, and this is not such a case.

Flyers MUST start the game in reserve. Just because a special rule allows to to redeploy some of your army does not give you explicit permission to ignore the normal rules for deployment. If the rule does say that (you get to ignore the normal rules for deployment) then you would be allowed to ignore the restriction about starting a flyer in reserve.

However, since this rule does not have that proviso, all the normal rules for deployment would still apply to any units you redeploy using it.

"normal deployment rules" would still make Fliers stay in reserve.

yakface wrote:One rule saying you're allowed to do something and another saying you are not allowed to do something are not conflicting when it comes to rules. One is a permission and the other is a restriction, and the restriction always takes precedence (unless the permission specifically mentions that it overrides the restriction).

What page is this on?

Irrelevant - it is not a conflict, as per page 7, just the way the rules work.