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 Just Tony wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
7th ed was the edition in which I could accurately predict how, when and why I was going to lose before we even set up our armies. That's a game I really don't need back.

How much of that was core rules and how much army books?

The losing part is the army book, because Tomb Kings. The predictability is all in the core rules now, specifically a combination of limited maneuverability, set charge ranges and and inability to strike back if your first rank evaporates. A look at the enemy army and a bit of math is all it takes. 7th ed was not a good game. More of a math exercise, and pretty much as boring.

Voss wrote:
So... 7th edition opinions aside, what are the odds this is pic related to a 'Brutal Deluxe' product and nothing at all with the Old World?

Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?

This has nothing to do with The Old World.

Wjy did they bring Ward back to work on stuff when they have their own employees? Not saying anything is conclusive but I won't dismiss the possibility out of hand.


I'm willing to bet that the same people who are naysaying this recent little post are the same people that were nay saying everything about scale, Square bases, setting, and everything else that was disproven...

So, what are you paying out for losing that bet? Because you can scroll back through this very thread for proof of my naysaying this and NOT naysaying scale, square bases or anything else.

Keep in mind that the OW project has been going on for years now (before it was announced), and has produced actual content that's been used in TW3. And they already announced working off the 7th edition rules. So these guys gathering now seems unrelated entirely. Let alone the other company name at the top of the post.

There wasn't really anyone "naysaying" scale. It was simply a discussion that came up that a reduced scale COULD be a cool thing and it COULD be used to overcome the fact WHFB died with a very bloated range. No one thought it WOULD happen, it was just a hypothetical discussion of (however unlikely) possibilities that somehow got twisted into "zomg!!1!!1!! PeoPLe tHiNk iT'S GoiNg tO Be 10mm ScaLe!!1!! ThOse PeOple aRe sO DuMb!1!!"

It reminds me of when I joined a flat earth forum back in the early 00's... no one actually believed the earth is flat it was just an entertaining thing to discuss and apparently some people missed the joke and took it seriously

Eiríkr wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?

GW do quite a bit of work in London, especially if it is convenient to those involved.
All of the Daemonhunter videos (Andy Serkis etc) were filmed in London; travel between the two can be surprisingly arduous at times, especially if you're not located near to Kings Cross/St Pancras... Also, last week the UK saw the worst rail strikes in decades. It may simply be a matter that these four live nearer to London than Nottingham and decided to convene there than travel north.

Does GW own an office in London? Renting a place for a day or two to shoot some videos is viable, but what about renting for a longer duration? And if they have an office there, is it better to ferry employees out to that place instead of inviting the consultants in?

What kind of work would the guys be expected to do for GW? If it's enough for them to stay around, one trip to Nottingham has to come cheaper than getting everything and everyone they need to London. If it's a short gig, would it result in more than a meaningless publicity stunt?

In short, the question is what GW hopes to gain and how they would justify the cost. I don't find inconvenient travel a satisfying answer to that.

Voss wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I'm willing to bet that the same people who are naysaying this recent little post are the same people that were nay saying everything about scale, Square bases, setting, and everything else that was disproven...

So, what are you paying out for losing that bet? Because you can scroll back through this very thread for proof of my naysaying this and NOT naysaying scale, square bases or anything else.

I'd advise against betting. It's a bad habit to get into and in my case I can say that you'll just lose.

But for the sake of argument, you're making a very tenuous point. GW announced The Old World with that name and a picture of a square base. Scale, setting as well as rank and file were implied by the announcement straight from the company that makes the game.

In that social media post you have a private person post a group photo of four game designers who happened to work for GW twenty years ago and have since left the company. GW is not the entire wargaming world and they could meet for any number of professional reasons. Working for GW is one of them to be sure, but without anything more than that post there is zero evidence of any connection to GW.

These two are not equivalent. You're comparing apples and oranges.

lord_blackfang is very straightforward about making an "I want to believe" post and never claims that it's more than that. There's nothing wrong with that. We can talk about how cool it might be all day to see good game designers on the job for a change, but there is no evidence whatsoever that this is related to The Old World. In my opinion we should therefore treat it with due doubt. You're free to call that naysaying if you like.

 Geifer wrote:

Eiríkr wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?

GW do quite a bit of work in London, especially if it is convenient to those involved.
All of the Daemonhunter videos (Andy Serkis etc) were filmed in London; travel between the two can be surprisingly arduous at times, especially if you're not located near to Kings Cross/St Pancras... Also, last week the UK saw the worst rail strikes in decades. It may simply be a matter that these four live nearer to London than Nottingham and decided to convene there than travel north.

Does GW own an office in London? Renting a place for a day or two to shoot some videos is viable, but what about renting for a longer duration? And if they have an office there, is it better to ferry employees out to that place instead of inviting the consultants in?

What kind of work would the guys be expected to do for GW? If it's enough for them to stay around, one trip to Nottingham has to come cheaper than getting everything and everyone they need to London. If it's a short gig, would it result in more than a meaningless publicity stunt?

In short, the question is what GW hopes to gain and how they would justify the cost. I don't find inconvenient travel a satisfying answer to that.

Not specific to your question but London is A) the central transport hub for the country despite many many attempts to make it not so, so it can literally be easier to get to central London than to one town over by rail and B) the town is very much set up to accommodate pop-up and short to medium term “instant” offices where all you have to do is show up and not damage the rented gear too badly, including photo studios and the like. If you want four or five people to have an office for six months for a project? Easy. It’s not like game developers need heavy industrial equipment to work their magic.

See now that's something we can all enjoy.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I have nothing besides speculation and wishful thinking, but someone paid to put these 4 in a room together

(Tuomas confirmed it's work related and a secret project)

I'm going to point out that all 4 have left GW (though Gav continues to write for them as a freelancer) and have successful game design/writing careers outside of it, and in at least one case theres some bad blood involved that makes them unlikely to work on something GW related.

Voss wrote:
So... 7th edition opinions aside, what are the odds this is pic related to a 'Brutal Deluxe' product and nothing at all with the Old World?

Dunno what Brutal Deluxe is, but the odds of it being something other than The Old World are much higher than the odds of it being related to the Old World.

 Just Tony wrote:






In all seriousness the line up seems a little too convenient to be coincidence.

How? They are all still active game designers and they are all people who worked together for years and have continued to collaborate and communicate since leaving GW. Theres nothing "too convenient" about this. In Alessios case he literally owns his own design studio and publishing house, and he and Andy have collaborated on a *lot* of design projects together already.

Alessio and Tuomas are pretty active on mordheims facebook site. Tuomas even released semi new material in 2021 for it, an experimental warband among them.

Perhaps its a mordheim re-release?

Now that would have made me very happy indeed! Going from Tuomas' thoughts expressed on the matter though (Mordheim was a culmination of particularly favourable circumstances and liberties afforded by GW at the time, it is a self-contained, finished thing, ...), a new game, perhaps with some recognisable DNA, would seem more likely, especially if it was not GW that rounded them up.

To capture the zeitgeist like Mordhiem did in its time, perhaps a Don't Look Up themed game.

So i have new information regarding the Old World for anyone interested.

I heard about this from a Mantic employee that was previously working in GW (both UK companies) I don't know the guy that well so take it with a grain of salt.

Apparently the main reason GW is bringing back Fantasy is to hurt Kings of War and Conquest. Their thinking is "if it hurts their sales good if it doesn't oh well we made a few extra quid".

That would sound a lot more true if they were actively/transparently developing it.

It sounds like a ghost story KoW and Conquest players tell each other around the campfire.

That makes sense with regards to the timing of their announcement, but we've heard next to nothing about it this year so that doesn't add up. If it's dropping in Summer of 2024 (based on GW's release schedule with new AOS dropping in Summer 2025 and 10th 40k in Summer 2023), hopefully we hear more about actual rules development next year sometime.

 Rihgu wrote:
That would sound a lot more true if they were actively/transparently developing it.

It sounds like a ghost story KoW and Conquest players tell each other around the campfire.

That "rumour" has been mentioned since the initial reveal, even.

As if they were so scared of another comparatively less popular game that they rushed into announcing and making a big project of a new rank-and-file game, including for some reason returning to and updating a completely different setting to AoS alongside it, with the primarily goal of it being to spite that other game....with a project releasing years later.

Rather than noticing that The Old World has plenty of popularity still because of it being a beloved setting and video games have done a lot to get people interested in, that can appeal to a different gaming niche, and maybe they realized destroying the setting was maybe a bit of a mistake considering that.

 nathan2004 wrote:
That makes sense with regards to the timing of their announcement

Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.

Heck it probably helped Mantic more than harmed it

MaxT wrote:

Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.

KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.

 Rihgu wrote:
It sounds like a ghost story KoW and Conquest players tell each other around the campfire.

It's the kind of absurdity people come up with in order to make something they're invested in seem more relevant than it actually is.

GW is NOT investing development time and production capacity into a wargaming equivalent of Latte Larry's.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

MaxT wrote:

Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.

KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.

Have you forgot about the full redesign/expansion of both Kislev and Cathay, then?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

MaxT wrote:

Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.

KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.

Have you forgot about the full redesign/expansion of both Kislev and Cathay, then?

Done for the video game.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

MaxT wrote:

Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.

KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.

Have you forgot about the full redesign/expansion of both Kislev and Cathay, then?

Done for the video game.

They're part of the Old World tabletop as well.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

MaxT wrote:

Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.

KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.

Have you forgot about the full redesign/expansion of both Kislev and Cathay, then?

Done for the video game.

They're part of the Old World tabletop as well.

Yep and we can assume anything (esp anything new) in TW Warhammer is up for potential use as a base for models in the upcoming game. However there's a big difference between concept art and 3D digital models and actual designs for plastic casting and actual models for the tabletop. So in general whlist it gives us a good idea of the style of model and artwork GW are going for, it won't really give us an idea of what kind of models they are making until we see actual models or at least 3D renders of the models being used as a base for the mould design.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

MaxT wrote:

Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.

KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.

This myth really needs to die. The Old World was announced about 4 weeks after KoW was on shelves.

A vaporware product isn't hurting Kings of War or Conquest in any capacity, the complete absence of any real visibility into the game for what, the past 6 months, has done nothing to harm any theoretical competitor, nor has the dim flickers of activity we have been shown over the preceding 2 years or so. The Total War tie-ins haven't done much to move that needle either.

GW has been pretty clear the re/design was done for both TWW and TOW, they even stated that they made a mock army book for Cathay. TBH Blackfang dismisses evidence to peddle negative rumors with some frequency anyways so I wouldn't give much substance to it.

Damn it, can we just not bump this thread unless there's some substantive rumor? Hope is giving me an ulcer at this point...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
GW has been pretty clear the re/design was done for both TWW and TOW, they even stated that they made a mock army book for Cathay. TBH Blackfang dismisses evidence to peddle negative rumors with some frequency anyways so I wouldn't give much substance to it.

Yet fact is there's no active sign of two so idea of it being made to hurt kow is laughably stupid. Okay gw isn't smartest bunch but if anything two has only helped kow so far.


Maybe two comes, maybe doesn't. Wouldn't be first cancelled project from gw. Either way long way ahead. Kow ain't bothered one bit by tow,

The phrase "take this with a grain of salt" is almost inevitably followed by any old bollocks.

 nathan2004 wrote:
That makes sense with regards to the timing of their announcement, but we've heard next to nothing about it this year so that doesn't add up. If it's dropping in Summer of 2024 (based on GW's release schedule with new AOS dropping in Summer 2025 and 10th 40k in Summer 2023), hopefully we hear more about actual rules development next year sometime.

10th ed 40k is in '23, 4th ed AoS in '24 in the likely event that GW sticks to their three year edition lifespans. If we assumed Old World to take up the summer release slot of a new game edition in the same vein as Horus Heresy, we'd be looking at a '25 release.

 Just Tony wrote:
Damn it, can we just not bump this thread unless there's some substantive rumor? Hope is giving me an ulcer at this point...

At the risk of sounding unduly negative, we'd all be better off pretending The Old World doesn't exist for the time being. GW's two and a half teases per year aren't helping anything, and neither is waiting for the next time they remember they were trying to tease a new game.

If GW decided to cancel The Old World, do you think they would tell us?

 Ohman wrote:
If GW decided to cancel The Old World, do you think they would tell us?

The same company that pretended Cursed City was always a limited release before "making it" a regular one? No, I don't imagine they would.

Conquest and Kings of War are not even on most gamers radar
This sounds like something someone would say to make people think their game is more important than it is

More and more companies that people call 'irrelevant' (AKA any which aren't GW) have been making 'Space Dwarves' in recent years, so the Votann probably aren't a coincidence either. I don't think it's a stretch to assume if GW want a whole pie to themselves and they see other people taking a slice here and there, they're going to try and get the full pie - even though they have most of it alreadu.

You have to admit it's very out of character for GW to announce a project like TOW so far in advance without a good reason.