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Gun Emplacements:
"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of its own weapon."

Skyfire:
"A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

It seems reasonable that a Vehicle or a MC that fires a Quad Gun, would be able to utilize their other weapon with Skyfire.

I dont see any other rule that would prevent this...

Could this mean that there is an actual use for Hunter Seeker Missels as they would have Skyfire after a Vehicle in base contact with the Gun Emplacement fires this weapon.

What are your thoughts?

I think the model fires the Quad gun instead of it's own weapon, so can't fire anything else but the Quad Gun if you choose to fire the Quad Gun. The skyfire rule on the Quad Gun is only active if you fire the Quad Gun. So taking these rules together, you either fire the Quad Gun with Skyfire, or you fire your normal weapon(s) without Skyfire (unless those weapons have Skyfire, of course).

Tye_Informer wrote:
I think the model fires the Quad gun instead of it's own weapon, so can't fire anything else but the Quad Gun if you choose to fire the Quad Gun. The skyfire rule on the Quad Gun is only active if you fire the Quad Gun. So taking these rules together, you either fire the Quad Gun with Skyfire, or you fire your normal weapon(s) without Skyfire (unless those weapons have Skyfire, of course).

Right, i would agree if it said "weapon(s)".

The problem is that it only refers to taking the place of one weapon.

If a model can fire more then one weapon, i dont see an articulation that would prevent the other weapons to be fired.


Too bad the FAQ already came out. :(

Possibly, but not with Skyfire.
The Emplacement does not GRANT the ability, it HAS the ability.

Right, I guess the crux of my argument is that the wording of skyfire can be interpreted to give all fired weapons from that model it's full ballistics skill versus fliers for the turn that it is used:

"A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

I see what you are saying.

(provided the model can fire more than one weapon per shooting phase...)

It counts as firing a weapon with skyfire and therefore any weapons it 'also' fires are fired at their full ballistic skill vs fliers? (as per the 2nd clause in the skyfire rule: "...or that is firing a weapon with this special rule...")

Specifically it seems to be saying that a model with the special rule or firing a gun with the special rule recieve the same benefit, that of being able to use their full ballistic skill. It doesn't (though probably should) say that the benefit is only restricted to the gun with the special rule in the latter case.

 Neorealist wrote:
I see what you are saying.

(provided the model can fire more than one weapon per shooting phase...)

It counts as firing a weapon with skyfire and therefore any weapons it 'also' fires are fired at their full ballistic skill vs fliers? (as per the 2nd clause in the skyfire rule: "...or that is firing a weapon with this special rule...")

Specifically it seems to be saying that a model with the special rule or firing a gun with the special rule recieve the same benefit, that of being able to use their full ballistic skill. It doesn't (though probably should) say that the benefit is only restricted to the gun with the special rule in the latter case.

Exactly - well stated.

And I'm not so sure about RAI but RAW appears to support this.

Anything to give a bit of an edge on flyers is welcomed

So a walker or other vehicle could fire it instead of a stormbolter and then shoot their remaining long range weapons at a flyer at full BS?

 Shandara wrote:
So a walker or other vehicle could fire it instead of a stormbolter and then shoot their remaining long range weapons at a flyer at full BS?

Right: if I am reading the rule correctly.
I have seen nothing in the brb to prevent this so far...

It may make land raiders worth taking in this edition

Vehicles can fire Quad-guns? Are you sure?

No, in this case the weapon has Skyfire, not the model.
Look at the Skyfire rule again, the weapon is allowed to be fired at full BS. If the model had Skyfire, then yes all weapons would benefit.

Well now hold on a second, if an MC or walker fires the quad gun that's all they get to fire. Their rules state that they can either fire two of THEIR weapons (MC) or all of THEIR weapons (Walker). the quad gun is NOT one of THEIR weapons, it is wholly separate from them and nothing allows them to fire the quad gun and one or more of their own weapons as the quad gun rule states that it is fired instead of firing your own weapon.

Except that walkers and vehicles do not have a 'weapon'. They have multiple 'weapons'.

Are you saying that _any_ model with more than one weapon is unable to fire the quad-gun at all, since they do not fit the criteria of the rule?

The rule doesn't state what happens to the other weapons, but the rules for walkers/vehicles specifically state they are allowed to fire multiple weapons, with some restrictions.

 ph34r wrote:
Vehicles can fire Quad-guns? Are you sure?

Says: "one model in base contact"...

For the purposes of firing emplaced guns, the model "can choose to fire one of the emplaced weapons instead of his own... ...All relevant special rules frorn the firing model and the weapon are used."

As silly a mental picture as it is for a landraider to sidle on up to a quad gun and let loose with all it's (the quadguns') barrels, it appears to be rules-legal.

And gaining Skyfire to boot.

 Shandara wrote:
And gaining Skyfire to boot.

No it wouldn't.
The weapon has Skyfire, so it can shoot at normal BS. It doesn't pass it on.

 Shandara wrote:
Except that walkers and vehicles do not have a 'weapon'. They have multiple 'weapons'.

Are you saying that _any_ model with more than one weapon is unable to fire the quad-gun at all, since they do not fit the criteria of the rule?

The rule doesn't state what happens to the other weapons, but the rules for walkers/vehicles specifically state they are allowed to fire multiple weapons, with some restrictions.

Uh...how did you get that from what I said? No, that's ludicrous, I'm not saying that if a model has more than 1 weapon it can't fire the quad gun. Hell, space marines would NEVER be able to fire it then since they have grenades and another ranged weapon.

No, what I'm saying is that if a model fires the quad gun they aren't allowed to shoot anything else that turn. You show me where an MC is allowed to fire a gun that isn't their weapon as well as their own weapon, or the same for walkers, then sure. Yes, they have multiple weapons as many models do, but they're only given permission to fire multiple weapons of their own, this doesn't give them permission to fire the quad gun and one or more of their own weapons.

Read the first post's Skyfire rule quote.

If the vehicle fires the Quad-Gun it is firing a weapon with the rule, hence it shoots at Flyer's with full BS.

No, what I'm saying is that if a model fires the quad gun they aren't allowed to shoot anything else that turn. You show me where an MC is allowed to fire a gun that isn't their weapon as well as their own weapon, or the same for walkers, then sure. Yes, they have multiple weapons as many models do, but they're only given permission to fire multiple weapons of their own, this doesn't give them permission to fire the quad gun and one or more of their own weapons.

Already answered by Neorealist, and better than I could.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
And gaining Skyfire to boot.

No it wouldn't.
The weapon has Skyfire, so it can shoot at normal BS. It doesn't pass it on.

Right, but it seems to apply for the remainder of shots from that model for the turn.

 Shandara wrote:
Read the first post's Skyfire rule quote.

If the vehicle fires the Quad-Gun it is firing a weapon with the rule, hence it shoots at Flyer's with full BS.

No, what I'm saying is that if a model fires the quad gun they aren't allowed to shoot anything else that turn. You show me where an MC is allowed to fire a gun that isn't their weapon as well as their own weapon, or the same for walkers, then sure. Yes, they have multiple weapons as many models do, but they're only given permission to fire multiple weapons of their own, this doesn't give them permission to fire the quad gun and one or more of their own weapons.

Already answered by Neorealist, and better than I could.

But you're only firing a weapon with its rule so only that weapon gets it.

Second...he didn't answer anything that I brought up so I don't know what you're saying here.

Quote fail from me, sorry, plus the rule he quoted only pertains to Emplaced Weapons, not Gun Emplacements anyway.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Read the first post's Skyfire rule quote.

If the vehicle fires the Quad-Gun it is firing a weapon with the rule, hence it shoots at Flyer's with full BS.

No, what I'm saying is that if a model fires the quad gun they aren't allowed to shoot anything else that turn. You show me where an MC is allowed to fire a gun that isn't their weapon as well as their own weapon, or the same for walkers, then sure. Yes, they have multiple weapons as many models do, but they're only given permission to fire multiple weapons of their own, this doesn't give them permission to fire the quad gun and one or more of their own weapons.

Already answered by Neorealist, and better than I could.

But you're only firing a weapon with its rule so only that weapon gets it.

Second...he didn't answer anything that I brought up so I don't know what you're saying here.

1) the sky fire rule itself appears to allow other shots from this model to be fired at their full ballistic skill when shooting at flyers.
But normally you would be right: the weapon would normally not convey an ability to the model.

2) it's the chubacka defense

Kevin949 wrote: Well now hold on a second, if an MC or walker fires the quad gun that's all they get to fire. Their rules state that they can either fire two of THEIR weapons (MC) or all of THEIR weapons (Walker). the quad gun is NOT one of THEIR weapons, it is wholly separate from them and nothing allows them to fire the quad gun and one or more of their own weapons as the quad gun rule states that it is fired instead of firing your own weapon.

In that light, do you think you could find me 'any' model at all which states it can fire emplaced weapons explicitly? I'd hazard a guess that would be 'no'. The only model that a quad gun (for example) would belong to (ie: THEIR weapon as you've put it) would be the model of the emplaced weapon itself.

Fortunately the rules for gun emplacements tell us that "...One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting..." which indicates that the only requirement is that the model be in base-to-base contact with the emplacement, not that it be their own weapon to begin with.

I know I will probably regret this, but even if the 'model' can fire more than one weapon in the shooting phase (and the gun emplacement rule allowed it): when it fires the Quad-gun, it is firing a weapon with the skyfire rule; when it fires its storm bolter (or lascannon or whatever) it is not firing a weapon with the skyfire rule.

 Verd_Warr wrote:
I know I will probably regret this, but even if the 'model' can fire more than one weapon in the shooting phase (and the gun emplacement rule allowed it): when it fires the Quad-gun, it is firing a weapon with the skyfire rule; when it fires its storm bolter (or lascannon or whatever) it is not firing a weapon with the skyfire rule.

This times 1000. The skyfire rule specifically says if the model has the USR, or if the weapon being fired has said USR. Never does it say "If you fire one weapon with skyfire, all of your other weapons you are permitted to fire may do so with Skyfire".

But it does say:
"A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

Condition 1: fires a weapon with this special rule (skyfire)
Condition 2: shooting at flyers

If these conditions are met, then the model fires at their normal ballistic skill.

Skyfire is not conveyed to the model.
Firing with their full BS is part of this special rule.

Is there any quote from the brb that can refute this?

Actually it does. let me break it down for you:

the Skyfire USR asks two questions:

1) Does your model have the skyfire rule itself: "...A model with this special rule..."
or
2) Is your model firing a weapon with the skyfire rule: "...that is firing a weapon with this special rule..."

If either of the above is true, it tells you that the model now "...fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

For example:
Say a dreadnought moves into base-to-base with the Quadgun, and elects to fire it rather than one of it's own weapons. It now counts as 'firing a weapon with the skyfire rule'. So we look up at what the skyfire USR tells us, which is that it (the model) now 'fires using it's normal skill when shooting at flying stuff'. (note it does 'not' say 'only with the quad gun' or anything similar) Therefore, the dreadnought is free to fire the rest of it's weapons at the flyer at the same time as the quadgun using the normal shooting rules 'and' it's normal Ballistic Skill.

Sigmundr wrote:

 Verd_Warr wrote:
I know I will probably regret this, but even if the 'model' can fire more than one weapon in the shooting phase (and the gun emplacement rule allowed it): when it fires the Quad-gun, it is firing a weapon with the skyfire rule; when it fires its storm bolter (or lascannon or whatever) it is not firing a weapon with the skyfire rule.

This times 1000. The skyfire rule specifically says if the model has the USR, or if the weapon being fired has said USR. Never does it say "If you fire one weapon with skyfire, all of your other weapons you are permitted to fire may do so with Skyfire".

Except that it doesn't say that. It says "A model with [Skyfire] or that is firing a weapon with [Skyffire] fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting a Flyers."
Fire a quad gun. Are you firing a weapon with Skyfire? Yes. You can now use your normal ballisitc skill when shooting at flyers.
Then fire the rest of your weapons...
I dare say this is not intended and is definitely not how I would play it, but there is a reading of the rules which allows this to occur.
However this would also mean that model firing its skyfire weapons along with other weapons at ground targets will fire snap shots at everything...

Edited by AgeOfEgos