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Made in us
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Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

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I have 2 quick questions for the brain trust here at YMTC.

 

#1. Page 44 IG codex states:

"Two guardsmen may form a heavy weapons crew. The crew must be armed

<PRE>with  one of the weapons from the following list: (a long list of </PRE><PRE>heavy weapons)."</PRE><PRE>   </PRE><PRE>Does that mean the loader does not have a lasgun? </PRE><PRE>Or, can he shoot a lasgun while the gunner shoots the heavy weapon.</PRE><PRE>   </PRE><PRE>#2. Where do you draw line of sight to and from the heavy weapon? </PRE><PRE> The base, the weapon or the guardsmen?  </PRE><PRE>Thanks </PRE>


 
   
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1) Rules as Written: Both guardsmen have their Lasguns (standard weapons) and are also both armed with the same one heavy weapon. That means one can fire the Heavy weapon while the other fires his Lasgun, or both can fire their Lasguns if they wish.

In practical applications, most people seem play that one of the models loses his lasgun, although this isn't supported in the rules.


2) Los is drawn from the model's eye view of whichever model you are choosing to have fire the heavy weapon.

If the weapon is based as a seperate model (such as with older guardsmen), then LOS must be drawn from both the guardsman model AND the gun model (page 21 of the rulebook).


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Florence, KY

Posted by yakface on 03/14/2006 12:04 AM
1) Rules as Written: Both guardsmen have their Lasguns (standard weapons) and are also both armed with the same one heavy weapon. That means one can fire the Heavy weapon while the other fires his Lasgun, or both can fire their Lasguns if they wish.

Actually the "Rule As Written" has them armed with just the heavy weapon. It states they must be armed with "... (a) missile laucher... (a) lascannon... (an) autocannon... (a) mortar" or "... (a) heavy bolter". I don't see where is states "... and lasguns" anywhere in that section of the rules.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut







Ghaz, they get the lasgun as per the squad profile. The heavy weapon text doesn't say it replaces the lasgun, simply that they're armed with the lasgun.

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Florence, KY

Then you're saying that a Space Marine Tactical squad that upgrades a Marine to carry a heavy weapon also retains his bolter. The Marine gets the bolter as per the squad profile, nor does the text say that the heavy weapon replaces the bolter.

So again, the squad profile states that they are armed with a lasgun. However, they are given the option to instead be armed with a heavy weapon. It does not say that they have the option to have a heavy weapon AND a lasgun.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
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Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.


2) Los is drawn from the model's eye view of whichever model you are choosing to have fire the heavy weapon.


Here is where it came up: A sliver of the heavy weapon base was lined up with a sliver of a models base. Is that enough for line of sight? Or are you saying that the figure of the gunner needs to draw line of sight?


 
   
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Florence, KY

You don't draw line of sight to or from the base. The first paragraph on page 20 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook tells you where you draw line of sight from and the first paragraph on page 21 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook tells you where you draw your line of sight to.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
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Posted By Ghaz on 03/13/2006 11:56 PM
Then you're saying that a Space Marine Tactical squad that upgrades a Marine to carry a heavy weapon also retains his bolter. The Marine gets the bolter as per the squad profile, nor does the text say that the heavy weapon replaces the bolter.

So again, the squad profile states that they are armed with a lasgun. However, they are given the option to instead be armed with a heavy weapon. It does not say that they have the option to have a heavy weapon AND a lasgun.


Ghaz, we have this same argument every time this subject comes up. Being armed with something is not necessarily exclusionary. One can be armed with something, and then be armed with something else. There is no reason that person is not then armed with both items.


I personally do not play that way (because I do not like where that conclusion takes the game), but that is what the RAW lead us.

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I agree that loaders have lasguns. Loader models even have lasguns in the metal ranges and WD articles show loaders with lasguns. The rules don't say anything about the loader losing their weapon.

On the gunner I'd slightly disagree though. I'd say the heavy weapon gunner does lose his lasgun, as the basic rules say you can only have one two-handed weapon. So by this I'd say you couldn't lug a missile launcher and a lasgun about. Following this two-handed basis, if the gunner dies the loader picks up the HW and ditches his lasgun - now only one two-handed weapon carried.

Equally a Marine couldn't have a heavy weapon and a bolter, as they're both two-handed weapons. He could have a bolt pistol if this was an option as it's a one-handed weapon. That's my take on it!
   
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Angmar

SuperJohn, while I agree with the theory behind your statements, and that is how I and most others play it, there is no BGB basis for them..

Nowhere is it stated that heavy weapons are two-handed, and nowhere is it stated that the rank-and-file trooper is limited to two weapons or to a max of one two-handed weapon. The only restriction like that applies specifically to models that can take items from specific Codex armouries.

One perfect example of breaching the two weapon rule is the SM Termie who can take a Missile launcher, Storm Bolter, and PFist. While this is a specific example, and its entry does state specifically that he keeps his original two weapons, the entry also does not state anything about this being an exception to a standard two-weapon limit.

While apparent "intents" do in fact seem to point toward your conclusions, they are not actually supported by the RAW.

I don't want to get into this argument again, but I do want to make sure everyone has their facts straight before they proceed.

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The only restriction like that applies specifically to models that can take items from specific Codex armouries.

...yeah, cos every other trooper has three/four hands? Sorry, being cheeky there but you know what I mean. The Termie entry states it breaches the rule, and whilst that in itself in no way counts as a rule a trooper really only can carry one double-handed weapon, as he only has two hands. Maybe this is one time to turn to Chaos and take Yakface's /"You can use modeling to your advantage" maxim literally by having many-limbed gun-toting mutants galore!

The tournie guys will no doubt jump on this, but it does seem pretty clear that heavy bolters, lasguns, meltaguns etc, etc, etc are two-handed. I can't "state the page it says this" before anyone kicks off (I'm at work anyway and don't have a BGB to hand even were it stated in there) but if anyone tried to have two weapons that are clearly two-handed because the rules don't state they're two-handed I'd laugh very, very hard at him.

Anyway, I still think the gunner can only have the heavy weapon and the loader has a lasgun.
   
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Angmar

Oh, I agree with you, don't worry. But in the end, none of that has any bearing on the actual rules argument.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
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Superjohn, you're sort of new, so someone should tell you:

Here we don't care what the rules should say or what they intended they say, just what they actually say.

Knowing that will save alot of grief later.

That doesn't mean we don't discuss intent and what "feels right", but it will never win an argument here.


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Florence, KY

Posted by yakface on 03/14/2006 2:06 AM
Ghaz, we have this same argument every time this subject comes up. Being armed with something is not necessarily exclusionary. One can be armed with something, and then be armed with something else. There is no reason that person is not then armed with both items.

Which again means that almost every single model that can be upgraded to a special or heavy weapon in any codex retains their base weapon. Is that what you're saying? Because the wording of the IG Heavy Weapon Team is no different than any other.

Also note it's not inclusive either, and last time I looked the rules needed to allow you to do something. It states that they're armed with "a heavy weapon". Not "a heavy weapon AND lasguns".

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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First, many of the codexes use the word "replace".

Second, the rule is inclusive. Here you go:

P1. Guardsmen have lasguns, per their listing.

P2. Members of a heavy weapon team have a heavy weapon

Conclusion: Guardsmen who are members of a heavy weapon team have a lasgun and a heavy weapon.

That argument is iron clad here.

Third, Yes, we're saying that most models that take special and heavy weapons (the ones that don't use the word "replace") keep their original gun.


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Florence, KY

No, the wording is not necessarily inclusive.

P1. Guardsmen are normally armed with lasguns.

P2. You have the option to form a Heavy Weapon Team of two Guardsmen. Guardsmen that form a heavy weapon crew must be armed with a heavy weapon.

Conclusion: By forming the heavy weapons team, you have changed what the two Guardsmen are armed with. Instead of being armed with lasguns, they are now armed with a heavy weapon.

That argument is also ironclad. The rules never state that you take the heavy weapon in addition to your lasguns.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in pl
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Ahoj!
The rules never state that you take the heavy weapon in addition to your lasguns.

Do the rules say they are armed with it instead?

Borys
   
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Cheers Blue Loki.

Mauleed, I was citing the evidence of models in most metal weapon teams having a lasgun on the loader but not on the gunnner. Whilst not being explicitly rules-based (except by virtue of WYSIWYG) it's certainly the intention.

I had no intention of trying to win an argument, I was offering my opinion. I saw this as a discussion not a competition. It's also no less spurious a rationale than you stating something and calling it ironclad when it isn't.
   
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Ghaz, check out my FAQ document stickied up top of this thread (I know you have already), but that question is in there.

I did fairly extensive research in the codexes regarding this subject and the results were rather random. For example in the same codex (the Chaos 1st printing), basic Chaos Space Marine squads are "armed" with their heavy weapons, while Chaos Space Marine havoc squads "replace" their bolter to get their heavy weapon.

Intentional difference, or sloppy editing? We all have our own opinions, but the same terminology is not used throughout the codexes. There are at least four different ways GW has used to denote the option of taking a weapon.


But, I digress, to be "armed" with something is simply: "To supply or equip oneself with weaponry."

The term is not exclusionary in the least. We know that the Guardsmen in a squad are armed (equipped) with Lasguns because their basic profile says so. We would need concrete proof that taking a heavy weapon replaces that weapon in order to be certain that they no longer have their lasgun.

As being "armed" with something simply means to be equipped with it, there is no concrete proof. Therefore, guardsmen in a weapons team have both their lasguns and the heavy weapon.




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yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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Florence, KY

And again, just because it does not say 'replaced' doesn't mean that they're still armed with that weapon. The rules state that they are armed with a heavy weapon, period. End of sentence. Regardless of what the original profile stated, the unit options changes that.

You had two models armed with lasguns.

You took a unit option to form a Heavy Weapons Team. A Heavy Weapons Team must be armed with a heavy weapon. It does not say that they keep their lasguns. It does not say that they replace their lasguns. All it states is that they are armed with a heavy weapon. Nothing more and nothing less. So why should we assume that they're alos armed with a weapon that the codex does not state that they have after they took the unit option?

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


Because to be armed with something means to be equipped with it. It is being used as a verb.

You are armed with a pistol as your basic weapon. If, as an option, I can choose to arm you with a machine gun, NOTHING in that statement implies replacement or loss of the original weapon. Nothing.

I don't have to say that I would be arming you "in addition" to what you already have. That is a basic tennant of the english language.

You seem to have a different concept of what the word armed means in this case, and I think you are clearly mistaken.


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
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Florence, KY

You are armed with a pistol as your basic weapon. If, as an option, I can choose to arm you with a machine gun, NOTHING in that statement implies replacement or loss of the original weapon. Nothing

No. Nothing in that statement implies that you keep the original weapon. Nothing. You've given me the option to be armed with a machine gun, period. End of sentence. Where have you given me the option to be armed with a machine gun AND a pistol? You have not. You've only given me two options. To be armed with a pistol or to be armed with a machine gun.

I don't have to say that I would be arming you "in addition" to what you already have. That is a basic tennant of the english language.

Yes, you do. Because you've only given me the choice of one of two options and the "in addition" is not one of those.

You seem to have a different concept of what the word armed means in this case, and I think you are clearly mistaken.

I have a very clear concept of what the word 'armed' means, thank you. It's your concept that when the rules state that your armed with a heavy weapon that they really mean that your armed with a heavy weapon AND a lasgun that is clearly mistaken.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Yak has pointed out the obvious flaw in your logic, but I'll pipe in to. He's discussing it with you. I'm simply going to disprove your argument.

Here's your argument:

P1. Guardsmen are normally armed with lasguns.

Correct

P2. You have the option to form a Heavy Weapon Team of two Guardsmen. Guardsmen that form a heavy weapon crew must be armed with a heavy weapon.

Again, correct. So we have two premises that are true. Good start to an argument. Unfortunately, they are the same two premises that I have in my argument.

Conclusion: By forming the heavy weapons team, you have changed what the two Guardsmen are armed with. Instead of being armed with lasguns, they are now armed with a heavy weapon.

Unfortunately, this conclusion simply doesn't follow from your (my) premises. To make your conclusion the logical one you're need to add one of these premises:

P3.  you have changed what the two Guardsmen are armed with.

or

P3. Guardsmen can only be armed with one weapon.

Unfortunately, those premises would of course be unsupportable, so even if you included them, your argument would still be false, just for a different reason. Regardless, the argument you've posted so far is clearly and unquestionably false.

So at this point, either restate your argument or admit you are mistaken.


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Silverdale, WA

I also have to pipe in here. I'm just going to throw out an example from the IG codex to throw a little fuel on the fire. I'll use the Storm Troopers since they're rules are riddled with so many anomalies it always makes them fun:

According to their entry the sergeant CARRIES a hellpistol and CCW, and the troopers HAVE hellguns. Yet, up to two of them can be ARMED with special weapons.

Nothing says that the trooper armed with a melta-gun cannot have a hellgun as well. I think you are correct Ghaz that no one plays it that way just like no one gives the "heavy weapon team gunner" a lasgun in addition to his heavy weapon. However, when I picked the game back up after a long absence the Cadian mega force set and new codex were just comming out and it definately seemed to me from the wording of the codex and the heavy weap team sprues that both members retain their lasguns while also using a heavy weapon. So, my guys actually are modelled with the lasgun slung on their back, or on the ground next to them. I don't mind playing it either way but I do think that RAW supports 2 lasguns and 1 heavy weapon for the team.

 
   
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Isn't there wording somewhere that says that the guardsman loading and not firing the heavy weapon can still fire his lasgun?

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
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Silverdale, WA

Maybe in the last codex. I should probably dig mine up and re-read it. In the current dex it looks like IG heavy weapon teams are truly a 2-man unit utilizing a heavy weapon. In other words there is no distinction any more between loader and gunner. There is only the "team."

 
   
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There are no more gunners or loaders. No more. Gone. That is old terminology that no longer applies.

They are just two models in the unit equipped with a single heavy weapon.


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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Florence, KY

I've been sick the last few days, so forgive the tardiness of this reply but it is really quite clear that you do NOT keep the lasguns. The rules give you the option to have a Heavy Weapon Team armed with a heavy weapon. They do not state that you the option to add a heavy weapon to what would normally be the model's base weaponry. From the MSN Encarta Online Dictionary:

op·tion ( ópsh?n )

noun (plural op·tions)

Definitions:

1. choice: a choice that is or can be taken, especially a course of action that remains open for somebody to choose
Several options were ruled out right away.


2. freedom of choice: the right, power, or freedom to make a choice
I'd no option but to refuse.

So you either choose to keep the model's base weaponry or you take one of the squad options and the weaponry noted theirin. You do not take both.

An option is a choice, it is NOT and addition.


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
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President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


C'mon Ghaz, that's not even a valid argument.

You have the OPTION to make them a heavy weapon team. You either choose to do that or not.

However, if you do choose to make them a heavy weapon team, they are armed (which means: equipped, supplied, or given) with the one Heavy Weapon.

The OPTION to make them a heavy weapon team or not, again in no way suggests that their Lasguns are replaced or forfeit.


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
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Florence, KY

And again, it does not give them the option to be armed with both weapons, does it? No. You are given a choice to have a Heavy Weapon Team armed with one heavy weapon. You are not given a choice to have a Heavy Weapon Team amed with one heavy weapon AND two lasguns.

If you go to the auto dealership and purchase a new car and take the option of 17" mag wheels, do you expect to have eight tires on the car? Why is that?

You don't take both choices. It is one or the other. If you decide not to take the choice, and you have two models armed with lasguns. If you decide to take the choice, and you have a Heavy Weapons Team armed with one heavy weapon.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
 
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