8th ed CHAOS tactica

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**Wolf_in_Human_Shape**

Yeah, agreed. He's all over the place. More an example of slapping cool rules together than thinking about synergy and value (as with many of the FW units).

**Unit1126PLL**

Eldenfirefly wrote:I really think a superheavy aux detachment with a renegade knight is really good. A dominus or normal renegade knight with a 4++ save is not a small thing. Outside of very few instances, there is not a lot of chances for CSM to get a 4++ save on something with so many wounds and yet be potentially so threatening.

And the meta may be changing because of the IK codex. Even if you don't bring knights, you have to factor facing IK armies, or other armies who do bring knight allies. What is CSM going to use against IK armies?

I use Zarakynel as my LoW. Overpriced but she attracts bullets with a 3++, T8, and 20 wounds.

What I use against Imperial Knights is my Defiler Speedrun. Since you can advance and charge if you are a Slaanesh Daemon next to a Slaanesh Daemon Character in a mono-Daemons detachment, I can get a defiler 16 + 4d6" up the board to charge a knight - combine with prescience and daemonforge (or death hex on the enemy if necessary), you get a can of knight-mulching Giant Enemy Crab goodness. Add a defiler scourge for extra giggles. And don't forget to blow smoke during your speedrun so the enemy is -1 to hit the Giant Enemy Crab that is rampaging into their lines from Turn 1 once you utterly krump the baddies.

McGibs wrote:I keep really really wanting to like the Hellwright, but he's almost as many points as a flying Prince, and just can't carry the synergy for that cost.
His stupid aura and his repair ability conflict for some reason, so if he's using one, he's unable to use the other. Repairing also negates as his fancy guns you pay for. His fancy guns are all different types, so if you want to shoot the awesome soulburner pistol, you can't shoot the laser/melta/flamer stuff.
All in all, he's just a mess. If he was like 30-50 points cheaper, I'd give him a go as a secondary HQ, but his FW pricetag is just too high for what he can effectively bring.

I view the Soulburner pistol as more of a Close Combat Weapon than a ranged one, since you can fire it in melee. There's also a few other reasons to use it too, but the Voidcutter is really the only weapon it's competing with. The Flamer has a very clear niche that the soulburner pistol nor the voidcutter compete with.

Plus he can heal Knights d3 hit points, which is amazing compared to the 1 that Imperials get.

**McGibs**

But it's factored heavily into it's pointcosts, for a weapon that you'll MAYBE fire once. All the other weapons can fire at the same time, so they're not competing with each other at all. And the hellwright is really an HQ that wants to stand back at short/mid range and shoot/repair, not mix it up in melee.
Except when it repairs, it cant shoot. And the things it buffs, it can't repair.

Repairing knights is really the only thing I can see it being borderline useful for, but d3 healed wounds a turn for 180ish points isn't going to swing the game.

**BoomWolf**

Reapiring knights is a non-factor though, because as I stated before-chaos players should currently avoid knights.

As long we don't have "knight tactics", our knights are generally just inferior to imp ones. we need to fight them by fielding the things they have no equivalent to, not by fielding things they can put a +1 version of on the table.

And yes, we can dual-wield knights with the same gun, and double gat is cool-but its almost dominus class pricetag, and it aint no dominus.

**ZergSmasher**

My biggest problem with Renegade Knights is the lack of synergy. People compare the Khorne Lord of Skulls to a Renegade Knight. Yes, the Knight is cheaper, but the LOS has better synergies (such as being able to be affected by psychic powers, getting rerolls from a Lord, etc.). I do want to try a Renegade Knight as GW at least made a token effort to make them good, but I don't think they'll be competitive. What would really be nice is if FW gave us our Daemon Knights back.

**orkswubwub**

Can I get some honest thoughts on the c-beam cannon rapier battery? I'm worried about it giving up soulburst but still stiting at 5T and a 3+ (Maybe a 2+ if the battery can be half obscured) with 2 marines that function as characters, and even against blobs if the beam kills something you get 6 0 1 2d6 autohits which isn't shabby against the average 3T blob... The statline isn't great as mathematically against -1 or -2 to hit the connection is not reliable buuuut at the same time it is only a 70 point investment and you could float 3 of them quite easily to fill up a heavy support detach - or bring 2 and drop in a unit of oblits...

The lack of mobility is concerning but at 72 inch range you can sit one in each corner and give the opponent something to worry about, over 48 inches if it connects 3d3 damage is nothing to sneeze at?

P.S. best unit for dealing with plaguebearer spam? Is this just 40 slannesh cultists with presc and VoTLW?

**saint_red**

C-beam isn't worth it on a normal table. If you stick it in the corner of the board you shouldn't be able to see that much with it because of LOS blocking terrain. Take lascannons instead.

Cultists and Berzerkers for dealing with Plaguebearers would be the best choice. WE zerkers will kill ~15 of them before they swing at you.

**lindsay40k**

I'm worried about it giving up soulburst

Given the range on it, if you've got enemy units within 7", you're probably already in a pretty rough situation

**Dactylartha**

lindsay40k wrote:
I'm worried about it giving up soulburst

L
Given the range on it, if you've got enemy units within 7", you're probably already in a pretty rough situation

I just got three and I'm definitely looking forward to Fielding them against Necrons and blood Angel Devastators.

**orkswubwub**

lindsay40k wrote:
I'm worried about it giving up soulburst

Given the range on it, if you've got enemy units within 7", you're probably already in a pretty rough situation

Being that shining spears move 44 inches quite easily with a farseer reroll for quicken plus 2d6 charge its not too hard to imagine - particularly as they also have a 6-12 inch range on their ranged weapons. To get soulburst they just have to be just under 51 inches away from my C-Beam - which isn't even possible to deny on all deployment maps frankly. Bubble wrapping is good but its easy to make a mistake when measuring the base size between every model in a blob sometimes (at least for me) - to fully deny the charge while spreading out by troop blob - particularly as I try to move to objectives beyond turn 1 (don't want my 210-235 point plague blob babysitting my 70 point c-beam), etc.

**blackmage**

saint_red wrote:
C-beam isn't worth it on a normal table. If you stick it in the corner of the board you shouldn't be able to see that much with it because of LOS blocking terrain. Take lascannons instead.

Cultists and Berzerkers for dealing with Plaguebearers would be the best choice. WE zerkers will kill ~15 of them before they swing at you.

then you find 30 Pb with a -2 to be hitted and zerkers have hard time dislodge them unless you have prescience and or some sort of re roll for them., 40 cultists i doubt can deal with 30 Pb they hit on 5+ wound on 4+ (with votlw) and i save twice and if needed i can save at 4+, maybe with multiple units you can but then you commit a bit too much resources to kill a single unit.

**JNAProductions**

Yeah, even assuming optimal Zerker loadout (double chainsword) that's 4 attacks per Zerker per fight, for 8 in a combat phase.

8 attacks
4 hits
8/3 wounds
16/9 unsaved
32/27 past the FNP

Or, each Zerker kills slightly over one Plaguebearer. World Eaters helps with that, but then again, this assumed double chainswords. How often do you see that and not Chainaxes?

**Slayer-Fan123**

I thought the optimal loadout for Berserker Marines was Chainaxe + Chainsword?

Also they're hitting on 3+ so I don't know where that math of yours came from, unless Plaguebearers have a -1 ability in melee.

**mrhappyface**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought the optimal loadout for Berserker Marines was Chainaxe + Chainsword?

Also they're hitting on 3+ so I don't know where that math of yours came from, unless Plaguebearers have a -1 ability in melee.

-1 to hit from Cloud of Flies, -1 to hit from Miasma of Pestulance.

**JNAProductions**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought the optimal loadout for Berserker Marines was Chainaxe + Chainsword?

Also they're hitting on 3+ so I don't know where that math of yours came from, unless Plaguebearers have a -1 ability in melee.

They do. And the optimal loadout for PLAGUEBEARER KILLING is double chainsword, since +1 Strength and -1 AP do nothing against T4 5++.

But, I'll do the math for that:

6 attacks
3 hits
2 wounds
4/3 unsaved
8/9 past the FNP.

Not even one dead Plaguebearer, on average, per Zerker.

Meanwhile, a squad of 30 that gets the charge off on Zerkers does...

31 attacks
31/2 hits
93/8 wounds
93/24 unsaved, or about 4 dead. Assuming, of course, no buffs.

If we assume some easy-to-get buffs (Scrivener and Poxbringer), you get...

31 attacks
217/9 hits
1,736/81 wounds
1,736/243 unsaved, or about 7 dead.

**blackmage**

i play regularly N demons at tournaments, dont underestimate Pb durability i stopped anything with them, genestealers buffed by broodlord, zerkers, dp's, primarchs....

**Eldenfirefly**

Thinking of a fun list which let's me use the models I want to.

It will have a Castellan, a Lord of Skulls and two Rhinos with berzerkers and two Dark Apostles, a cultist unit of 10. Wonder if it might work.

The Castellan will draw all the fire, use 3cp to rotate ion shields if need to in the first round. This lets the Lord of skulls and the berserker Rhinos to get up the field. There is enough shooting provided by the Castellan and the Lord of Skulls as well. I just can't give up trying to work a LOS into my list because I love the model.

**DoomMouse**

Any chance of some help with a 2000pts competitive chaos list?

I've picked up sone bloat drones, Plagueburst and daemon princes. I also have a knight questor magnetised to run all options. Would like to know the most cut throat competitive list I can run with them, the focus being mainly on overloading the enmy with tough targets that can't be ignored.

Thoughts so far:

Death guard:

Daemon prince talons, plate
Daemon prince
3 x 10 poxwalkers
3 x bloat drones with plaguespitters
3 x Plagueburst crawlers with plaguespitters

Renegade knight with dual Gatling cannons and ironstorm launcher

Leaves me about 100pts under. Could add a gnarlmaw tree perhaps

Options: Could think about swapping princes to tzeentch, or running a Khorne one with the relic axe for some mad damage output. Could add sone helverins.

I'm all up for ideas on what makes a competitive chaos heavies list

**akaean**

I definitely think Chaos has it better than most armies when it comes to facing down Knights.

Veterans of the Long War is a great strategem for improving the effectiveness of our Anti Tank Guns and wounding t8 on 2s with Las Cannons or 3s with Missiles, Meltas, Blast Masters, etc.

Endless Cacophony pairs well with Veterans, and can make our damage dealers exceptionally devastating. Our highest damage unit is currently obliterators who can arrive from Reserves, making it impossible for the knight player to focus them off the board turn one.

Death Hex is an incredible power and completely shuts down the Rotate Ion Shield and Ion Bulwark shenanigans.

Even in close combat we have a lot of options to deal damage quickly. Defilers can use Daemonforge for a large number of re-rolls for their high strength attacks, and with Warp Time can usually seize the initiative and make sure it gets the charge. Even a Daemon Prince with Diabolic Strength can pop off a wounded Knight.

I think Knights are scary, but in truth Chaos have a lot of good tools to deal with them, and in many ways we are better off than the grand majority of armies. Let alone the ability to field large numbers of cheap and durable chaff that Knights are very inneficient at killing- like Cultists which respawn and Plague Bearers

**tokugawa**

If you throw Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War on one same unit, the unit work best on killing a titanic target is...40 Cultists?! They can bite up to avg 9 wounds from a Castellan. Before counting prescience and lord-reroll.

A weird conclusion.

Oh, and they still cannot wipe a 30 men plaguebearers unit, even with such buffs.

**Zid**

tokugawa wrote:
If you throw Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War on one same unit, the unit work best on killing a titanic target is...40 Cultists?! They can bite up to avg 9 wounds from a Castellan. Before counting prescience and lord-reroll.

A weird conclusion.

Oh, and they still cannot wipe a 30 men plaguebearers unit, even with such buffs.

Plaguebearers are boss, this is why

**akaean**

@Tokugawa
I'm not sure about your math there on Cultists targeting a Knight.
Assuming you get 40 of them within 12 inches with Auto Guns, and Rapid Fire them with full buffs and Veterans of the Long War, you should only expect to cleave roughly 7 wounds.

Prescience, Re-Roll 1s, Veterans of the Long War, Death Hex
40 Cultists:
80 shots x 0.777 accuracy x .333 wound x .333 saves x 1 damage = 6.91 damage.

now compare this to something like Obliterators with the same buffs (assuming average rolls (s8, Ap2, d2)
12 shots x .977 accuracy x .666 wound x .666 saves x 2 damage = 10.37

So Obliteraters are cleaving an extra four wounds off the Knight, and will deal an expected 20 wounds on target through endless cacophony- of course Obliterators will fluctuate depending on their d3 rolls for fleshmetal weapons, but their generally lower AP makes them less reliant on Death Hex to deal good damage. Unlike Melta users who absolutely need Death Hex to get their shots to land home.

Melta Bikers (3 Bikers, 3 Combi Bolters, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta) Same Buffs and Death Hex
3 Melta Shots at 6 inches
3 shots x .9777 hits x .666 wound x 4.5 damage = 8.75
12 bolters x .977 hits x .333 wound x .333 saves x 1 damage = 1.29
total for bikers = 10.04

4 Las Cannon Havocs
4 shots x .9777 hits x .8333 wounds x .8333 saves x 3.5 damage = 9.4 damage

Endless Cacophony for any of these units doubles the damage, because they shoot again. Obliterators are the best because they can operate from a bit longer range, and are less dependent on Death Hex compared to Las Cannon Havocs and Melta Bikers.

**lindsay40k**

Worth noting that Las Havocs are the only one of these that’s likely to be used T1

I mean you *can* Warptime the bikers into position, but it’s a small target for our Big Scary Spell and also possibly exposes the caster to DTW

Plus, I’m really liking this Defiler idea for T1 WT. That’s going to chin the bugger, and drop a scary DISTRACTION CARNIFEX on the enemy. Since it’s a play that requires MoS, Delightful Agonies will be a good choice for it, too; -1 to be hit and 5+++ is going to really put the pressure on

...makes me consider giving it the twin Heavy Flamers. More of a TAC build, and if there’s the firepower elsewhere, the Claws alone could be enough?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, a combi-weapon might be an idea. Something to fire after WTing into the enemy’s face

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, it’s popping smoke, forget combi-weapons

**Nurglitch**

akaean wrote:
@Tokugawa
I'm not sure about your math there on Cultists targeting a Knight.
Assuming you get 40 of them within 12 inches with Auto Guns, and Rapid Fire them with full buffs and Veterans of the Long War, you should only expect to cleave roughly 7 wounds.

Prescience, Re-Roll 1s, Veterans of the Long War, Death Hex
40 Cultists:
80 shots x 0.777 accuracy x .333 wound x .333 saves x 1 damage = 6.91 damage.

now compare this to something like Obliterators with the same buffs (assuming average rolls (s8, Ap2, d2)
12 shots x .977 accuracy x .666 wound x .666 saves x 2 damage = 10.37

So Obliteraters are cleaving an extra four wounds off the Knight, and will deal an expected 20 wounds on target through endless cacophony- of course Obliterators will fluctuate depending on their d3 rolls for fleshmetal weapons, but their generally lower AP makes them less reliant on Death Hex to deal good damage. Unlike Melta users who absolutely need Death Hex to get their shots to land home.

Melta Bikers (3 Bikers, 3 Combi Bolters, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta) Same Buffs and Death Hex
3 Melta Shots at 6 inches
3 shots x .9777 hits x .666 wound x 4.5 damage = 8.75
12 bolters x .977 hits x .333 wound x .333 saves x 1 damage = 1.29
total for bikers = 10.04

4 Las Cannon Havocs
4 shots x .9777 hits x .8333 wounds x .8333 saves x 3.5 damage = 9.4 damage

Endless Cacophony for any of these units doubles the damage, because they shoot again. Obliterators are the best because they can operate from a bit longer range, and are less dependent on Death Hex compared to Las Cannon Havocs and Melta Bikers.

What difference would Death Hex make for the Cultists? They have AP- weapons, so a Knight would get its 3+ armour save. Wouldn't it only matter for Obliterators and Havocs? Are we factoring this for points invested?

**akaean**

Sure,
40 Cultists is 160 points
the Oblits are 195
The Bikers are 122
The Havocs are 165

So the Bikers are by far the most cost effective. I included Death Hex because it is one of our best powers for dealing with Knights, and if we can get it off (such as with a +1 from Ahriman and possible command point use), it opens up a lot of options to focus down and KO a knight. Death Hex does nothing for the cultists, but its an important tool when considering chaos answers to Knights, so I wanted to make sure it was included.

Obliterators are less dependent on Death Hex than other units, due to their generally lower AP. Assuming No Death Hex, and The Knight Roates Ion Shields to a 4++, the Obliterators will be about equal to the cultists. Also worth noting about the Obliterators is that you definitely want to save a CP for the damage, as that is their most important random stat for these types of things.
Las Cannon Havocs will drop to 7.0
Bikers drop to 5.7

This is assuming a 4++ Knight. Against a 3++ Knight its either mass cultists or Death Hex as above. However even against a 4++ Knight the Havocs are doing the same damage from much longer range, and have larger upside when paired with Death Hex.

**blackmage**

what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.

**Zid**

blackmage wrote:
what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.

Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.

As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.

**vaklor4**

Zid wrote:
blackmage wrote:
what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.

Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.

As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.

For the most part I agree, however there is three knight options I see as passable. Fist and sword with no carapace is a massive distraction piece who hits like a truck with the +1 A and WS, twin gatling cannon with rerolling hits is pretty nutty, and the autocannon armiger is just...Real real good for its point value. But otherwise yeah, Renegades arent gonna be the list to beat. It more over is just great that chaos just suddenly got a LOT of new tools.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I think there's merit behind the Autocannon Armigers. Predators are limited in Rule of Three and, if that stays, Armigers are an excellent substitute.

**blackmage**

vaklor4 wrote:
Zid wrote:
blackmage wrote:
what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.

Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.

As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.

For the most part I agree, however there is three knight options I see as passable. Fist and sword with no carapace is a massive distraction piece who hits like a truck with the +1 A and WS, twin gatling cannon with rerolling hits is pretty nutty, and the autocannon armiger is just...Real real good for its point value. But otherwise yeah, Renegades arent gonna be the list to beat. It more over is just great that chaos just suddenly got a LOT of new tools.

but im not going to play a pure renegade list, just a superheavy detach with nurgle demon battalion+Ts supreme command, i just would like to switch my Dg outrider (3 drones+Dp) with double gatling Ik+armiger+armiger, im thinking about double cannon im not attracted by a model with ab 3+ and a weapon with d3 shots, im looking to improve match up against armies like De.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think there's merit behind the Autocannon Armigers. Predators are limited in Rule of Three and, if that stays, Armigers are an excellent substitute.

and armigers have +1 wound tsi 5++ move 14" no penalty to fire heavy weapons and moving and cost less, can deal some damage in CaC, not comparable. In any case rule of 3 will remain is not a beta, they wont delete it, 100% sure.