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 Arbitrator wrote:

You have to admit it's very out of character for GW to announce a project like TOW so far in advance without a good reason.

To piggy-back publicity from the recently-released video game that will be considerably less relevant by the time their own game releases years later?

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

You have to admit it's very out of character for GW to announce a project like TOW so far in advance without a good reason.

To piggy-back publicity from the recently-released video game that will be considerably less relevant by the time their own game releases years later?

Relevant? They're not trying to sell blocks of infantry to secondary "gamers".

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

You have to admit it's very out of character for GW to announce a project like TOW so far in advance without a good reason.

To piggy-back publicity from the recently-released video game that will be considerably less relevant by the time their own game releases years later?

Warhammer 2 had been out for two and a half years already, Warhammer 3 wouldn't be announced for another year and a bit.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

You have to admit it's very out of character for GW to announce a project like TOW so far in advance without a good reason.

To piggy-back publicity from the recently-released video game that will be considerably less relevant by the time their own game releases years later?

Warhammer 2 had been out for two and a half years already, Warhammer 3 wouldn't be announced for another year and a bit.

They did hype up how development of the Kislev and Cathay units in game mirrored similar developments for the miniatures team.

 Shakalooloo wrote:
To piggy-back publicity from the recently-released video game that will be considerably less relevant by the time their own game releases years later?

"Strike whilst the iron is frozen" is GW's modus operandi when it comes to brand integration.

This is the same company that thought it'd be a great idea to kill WHFB just before a video game from a popular developer and publisher was released for WHFB that would build hype for WHFB

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
This is the same company that thought it'd be a great idea to kill WHFB just before a video game from a popular developer and publisher was released for WHFB that would build hype for WHFB

Yeah, their idea of "re-adjusting" is to do the exact opposite of what they did last time.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
This is the same company that thought it'd be a great idea to kill WHFB just before a video game from a popular developer and publisher was released for WHFB that would build hype for WHFB

I think that is underselling it, to be honest. Total War Warhammer was the game that people wanted and had been wishlisting for years. It was the perfect combination of developer, mechanics and IP.

Missing out on utilising that was probably on a similar level to if GW hadn't released any miniatures for Lord of the Rings until after all of the films had been released.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
This is the same company that thought it'd be a great idea to kill WHFB just before a video game from a popular developer and publisher was released for WHFB that would build hype for WHFB

I think that is underselling it, to be honest. Total War Warhammer was the game that people wanted and had been wishlisting for years. It was the perfect combination of developer, mechanics and IP.

Missing out on utilising that was probably on a similar level to if GW hadn't released any miniatures for Lord of the Rings until after all of the films had been released.

Actually its even worse.

GW - at that time- was the company that had ignored Old World for years and then decided the best thing to do would be to run a huge global campaign of marketing and in-game lore events coupled to new models and a fresh starter set and everything. All in a massive run up to a summer removal of the entire Game and lore; stripping of the formal rules; removal of rank and file; removal of several armies (at least one of which had only semi recently had a very big model line update) and a bunch of other things. Oh and Zero marketing for AoS until pretty much launch day.

That there was a major concurrent video game for Fantasy Battles being released alongside is just a little frosting on the top of the cake of mistakes GW made at that time. A 3rd party side project isn't even a major marketing blip when GW made huge blunders all internally.


GW launching AoS and closing WFB as they did is possibly the text book "how to shoot yourself in both feet" style of marketing and product development. Granted it did result in the biggest kick for GW's management in decades and has basically resulted in a what I'd consider a second Golden Age for the firm and models - considering that we've now got multiple specialist game lines back on the market; an online marketing system that's running every day of the year; more outreach for youngens to get fresh blood in and more.

In retrospect it was both the worst thing GW have ever done and the best.

I still find it kind of shocking how readily people jump to any conclusion but 'classic GW incompetence' as the first explanation for anything. I think it ties into people wanting to villainize the company--it is easier to justify hate if the company is actively doing bad things rather than just being bad at doing things.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:
To piggy-back publicity from the recently-released video game that will be considerably less relevant by the time their own game releases years later?

"Strike whilst the iron is frozen" is GW's modus operandi when it comes to brand integration.

You say that now but wait till you see all the cool Rambo and Platoon references in the next IG codex! GW truly has their fingers on the pulse of the 80s!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm going to fix the title since the Cathay trailer is while ago now.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I still find it kind of shocking how readily people jump to any conclusion but 'classic GW incompetence' as the first explanation for anything. I think it ties into people wanting to villainize the company--it is easier to justify hate if the company is actively doing bad things rather than just being bad at doing things.

GW's incompetence feels like it rises to the level of wilful incompetence. Like someone with their fingers in their ears screaming "LALALALA SORRY I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Or I'm sure we've all come across someone who just refuses to learn or put in the effort and says things like "oh, hehe, I guess I'm just a bit stupid/clumsy/unskilled/etc" and you want to scream into their ear "YEAH, BECAUSE YOU AREN'T F@$%ING TRYING".

Or maybe that's just me

Granted I'm sure GW aren't actively trying to do badly, but there's been times where it seems like the internal echo chamber must have reached absurd levels.

A very accurate description of the Kirby years. We were just talking about in a different thread a few months ago.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805626.page

Apologist summed it up nicely.

This one? Link

It has a some rather... um... creative statements. A couple of notable 'highlights'

We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche

In the technological world we occupy there is constant debate over who 'innovates' and who merely copies. We have, this last year,
spent an indecent amount of your money trying to stop someone stealing our ideas and images. It is a very difficult thing to do when it is
done through a legal system designed to prevent people stealing hogs from one another. Our experience has probably been typical of
most – far too much money spent on far too little gain. The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit, lose everything that
we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be
swept from the sky. But is it true?

Because no one seems able to grasp the essential simplicity of what we do there has always been the search for the Achilles heel, the
one thing that Kirby and his cronies have overlooked. These are legion. I run through the list from time to time when someone says that
computer games will be the death of us – they are so much more realistic now! – again. This year it is 3-D printing. Pretty soon
everyone will be printing their own miniatures and where will we be then, eh?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
All I know is I'm changing my title to "Otiose in a niche"

One thing with GW is they basically sell crack, so even when they make massive blunders from the perspective or marketing and perception, if they release a product people like they'll still do well.

I think this is basically what happened with WHFB and AoS, it was a terrible horrible stupid move... but people liked the new stuff coming out for AoS so it was still a net move forwards. GW didn't do well BECAUSE they killed WHFB and replaced it with AoS, they did well IN SPITE of it.

Doesn't excuse comments like "otiose in a niche", but GW have a tendency to fall uphill, at least since the LotR bubble bursting.

Warhammer the Old World is simply nostalgia porn. It's a very common trend everywhere, be it in games or movies.

Believe it or not, a lot of GW developers do have a genuine attachment / fondness to the Old World. A lot of them grew up in its shadow, after all - that's not something you can simply ignore in the blink of an eye. Besides, the best way to remake a new game from the old is when the old game isn't around anymore.

As for the early announcements, I believe it's a question of feeding Warhammer Community's site with articles - and certainly not a question of reacting to so-called "GW competition". The "rumor" generating this new wave of comments is indeed a ghost story from Conquest / KoW players who'd rather think their game is that important to be considered a threat to main villain GW. Having a common enemy and "existential threat" is the base for consolidating a community together and raise their morale when the reality looks like their game isn't really attracting that many new players they would like to / doesn't have a lot of news for their game.

Better to simply dismiss that and look at things as they are (nothing in this case).

funny thing, never heard/read anything about a relation between KoW and TOW teaser in the KoW community/channels and they still ignore it (better said, still don't care)

don't know were it was first, but the most of it are from former WHFB players who are still salty (like here in Dakka or the T9A forum)

I still think TOW announcement was somewhat prompted by KoW. I doubt KoW is what caused them to work on TOW, but the timing is too convenient for me to think there wasn't some influence in choosing to make the announcement.

The KoW 3rd edition rulebook released on the 24th Oct, but in practice I don't think it was widely available at that date, and reviews were coming out through Oct, Nov and through to early the next year.

ToW was announced on the 15th Nov, so about 3 weeks after KoW 3rd edition rulebook's release date.

At the time there was still a lot of talk of which edition old WHFB should play and Mantic releasing a physical rulebook was one thing that was swaying people in the direction of KoW.

Coincidence? Perhaps, but to me it looks like there was some influence in choosing that time to make the announcement for ToW.

the teaser for TOW happened between the 3rd Edition Core book and Uncharted Empires book, so a surprisingly well timed one

and I doubt that GW had started on anything by that time at all but helping with TWW

You can go into places discussing TOW like Facebook and it's full of people saying how they can't wait to play Fantasy again and how they wish they could play sooner. When people point out there's nothing stopping them playing old editions, or games like Kings of War in the mean time they're usually laughed away.

I've seen plenty of people in the Conquest and KoW communities now say they won't spend a penny more on those games (or start them) because they're waiting for Games Workshop like good, loyal cultists. GW may be foolish in many ways, but they absolutely recognise the religious reverence a lot of people have for their brand and that announcing Malibu Stacy would be getting a new hat would hurt the competition. Considering how often "they're a business, they exist to make money!" gets flung around as an excuse for GW's actions around here, I don't know why people suddenly think GW wouldn't want to hurt other wargaming companies when all it takes is an intern writing up a website article.

 kodos wrote:
the teaser for TOW happened between the 3rd Edition Core book and Uncharted Empires book, so a surprisingly well timed one

and I doubt that GW had started on anything by that time at all but helping with TWW

Yeah, you're rekindling my memory. The KoW rulebook had just released at the end of Oct but the roll out was slow and many people weren't getting it until Nov, and the Uncharted Empires book was about to come out in Dec, which provided the rules to effectively play WHFB armies in KoW, and GW chose November to announce ToW.

Very convenient timing.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 kodos wrote:
the teaser for TOW happened between the 3rd Edition Core book and Uncharted Empires book, so a surprisingly well timed one

and I doubt that GW had started on anything by that time at all but helping with TWW

Yeah, you're rekindling my memory. The KoW rulebook had just released at the end of Oct but the roll out was slow and many people weren't getting it until Nov, and the Uncharted Empires book was about to come out in Dec, which provided the rules to effectively play WHFB armies in KoW, and GW chose November to announce ToW.

Very convenient timing.

IIRC Kings of War trolled right back with ads saying thier game is available right now, not in 5 years.

But yeah, while I doubt KoW factored into GW's decision making on reviving the Olde Worlde (it never should have died!) I can totally see KoW influencing the timing of their announcement. Don't forget Mantic has a lot of Ex-GW folks and some cross town teasing is to be expected.

I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.

I am pretty sure they do, legend says the rules for Kings of War were invented because people from Mantic (Ronni himself) and from GW (Cavatore) came into talk after a few drinks and one complaining to the other that he could write a better game if the management would allow it

But Mantic is trolling GW all the time, sometimes for the better, sometimes not

There was also an add on Mantic doing a discount on "full range" of Space Dwarfs on release weekend of Votann limited edition box

or having the Giant on sale in a 4 model discount deal when Mega Gargants released

And let's not forget the giant golden statue of Fisty Glue Man in Mantic's parking lot!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.

GW staff aren't paid enough to be able to afford drinks.

 Dreamchild wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.

GW staff aren't paid enough to be able to afford drinks.

Or toilet paper?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.

Why would they? They're all friends. Though the drinking part is probably right, as GW/Mantic/Warlord/etc - all the Nottingham companies - hang out and play games. The internet has perpetuated this myth that these companies all hate each other; then the next day there's pics of Alessio Cavatore, Jervis Johnson, John Stallard, Rick Priestley all playing a game hosted at the Perry's house.

I feel like Total War probably wouldn't have happened if they weren't going to dumpster WHFB.

Always felt like they were resistant to video games too similar to the tabletop experience.

Bit odd when I'd think they'd be effective cross promotion.

 Dreamchild wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.

GW staff aren't paid enough to be able to afford drinks.

Sir you win one Internet.

 judgedoug wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.

Why would they? They're all friends. Though the drinking part is probably right, as GW/Mantic/Warlord/etc - all the Nottingham companies - hang out and play games. The internet has perpetuated this myth that these companies all hate each other; then the next day there's pics of Alessio Cavatore, Jervis Johnson, John Stallard, Rick Priestley all playing a game hosted at the Perry's house.

What I said was mostly a joke, though "TPing" a place is a pretty tame act, it's not like I said "burned down" or something like that, lol, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some rivalry between the companies.

That said, if you watch interviews with a lot of the old guys who have now left GW, some of them definitely feel like they may hold some ill feelings towards GW, so I'm not entirely sure it's all "internet myth". That's not a commentary on individual relationships though, you can dislike a company while still getting along with certain people that make up that company.