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Which is more prudent against flyers, the Icarus Lascannon or the TL Quad Gun? What are the pros and cons of either?

I'm thinking about this tactic: take a 10-man squad of Codex Devastators; combat-squad the heavy-weapons team in one bunch, and the Signum Sergeant with the bolter boys in another; the Serg's squad will man the fortification gun, damn-near always hitting because of his BS 5.

It really depends on your list, your opponent and your available points.

Have an exarch with Fast Shot? Icarus.
Need to take out AV12? Icarus.
Lots of AV10/11 flyers? Quad.
Poor BS? Quad.

quad gun - st 7, 4 shots - vs Av11 (most fliers are these) - assuming 5+ cover save from jink, math hammer says 88% chance of hit with bs4 unit - 12.53% explode, 8.09% wreck, 18.16% destroyed in some way
BS 5 = 13.64% explode, 10.31% wreck, 20.80% destroyed

Lascannon str 9, 1 shot - bs5 = 14.40% explode, won't get any wrecks from glancing (assuming just 1 shot fired at one uninjured target), and total of 14.40% to destroy
BS 4 = 13.17% destroy/explode

Quad gun does have a shorter range however. A lascannon that's 96' can cover the entire board even at the corner. Only artillery really has a chance to get you on return fire at max range. It is also 15 points cheaper though from the results above, you can judge for yourself if 15 points are worth 4% extra chance at destruction

Just in case you were looking at blowing up valks/storm ravens -

lascannon - 9.88% destroy at bs 4, 10.8% at bs 5
Quad - 8.44% at bs 4, 9.60% destroy at bs 5 (even with all 4 shots fired)

I've crunched the numbers myself, and if all else was equal I might lean towards the quad gun. But since the Icarus is 15 points cheaper, I think that it is the better buy.

The quad gun can also be used on infantry with better effect for the first turn (and possibly longer until the flyers come from reserve).

I tend to use a Fire Dragon exarch with Tank Hunter/Crack Shot, which alleviates the S7 of the quad gun a bit, since he re-rolls armour penetration rolls (and prevents Jink's cover save).

Funny enough my answer is neither

The statistics on either gun vs Necron fliers is just so depressing I don't really think it cover's it's downside of being a KP in tournaments.

 BlueDagger wrote:
Funny enough my answer is neither

The statistics on either gun vs Necron fliers is just so depressing I don't really think it cover's it's downside of being a KP in tournaments.

? How are the necron fliers any different than other flyers?

Or are you referencing that you can only take 1 gun and necrons usually field 3+ flyers now?

Because they negate half the damn damage results? Math hammer the chance of stopping a Doom Scythe from firing in it's shooting phase. The chances of outright killing it are rather abysmal, it negates 1-3 on the dmg chart, 4 one removes the one gun, and 5 doesn't stop shooting.

Also remember that you need to take into account the cost of the unit you are putting with the gun. Fire Dragons aren't something you would typically just line up in your backfield, let alone taking the exarch with both powers. Reapers are at least doing what they would normally be doing, but you are not using the Exarch's gun that you upgraded to (or should have upgrade to).

Since when are forts worth a VP?

I'd say the icarus for two main reasons.

Firstly, quadguns may be snazzy against lightweight fliers, but you're going to look like an idiot when your opponent shows up with a storm raven or a vendetta. Odds are that we'll be seeing more up-armored fliers in the future.

Secondly, anything that a quadgun is going to be good against, heavy bolters, scatterlasers, missile launchers and a HUGE host of mid-strength weaponry is also going to be good against. If you were already bringing stuff to handle transport spam, then you're already bringing stuff to handle AV10 fliers.

Add to that the fact that its cheaper, is better against necron skimmers (as in, can do anything), and even handle more mundane targets like land raiders and terminators somewhat, and the icarus is what takes my vote.

Leave the anti-light-flier to all those riflemen and twin-linked assault cannons and 2x shuricat/scatterlaser warwalkers, and lootas, and hydras, and blasterspam, and gauss spam, and all those other things you're already really rather likely to have.

Or your own fliers, of course.

 BlueDagger wrote:
Because they negate half the damn damage results? Math hammer the chance of stopping a Doom Scythe from firing in it's shooting phase. The chances of outright killing it are rather abysmal, it negates 1-3 on the dmg chart, 4 one removes the one gun, and 5 doesn't stop shooting.

Also remember that you need to take into account the cost of the unit you are putting with the gun. Fire Dragons aren't something you would typically just line up in your backfield, let alone taking the exarch with both powers. Reapers are at least doing what they would normally be doing, but you are not using the Exarch's gun that you upgraded to (or should have upgrade to).

Oh, well the negation of results is on a 2+ or 4+, so it's not really automatic.

 pretre wrote:
Since when are forts worth a VP?

They are Kill Points when kill points are in play.

So 1/6 of rulebook missions and whatever tournament mission you have going that uses kill points.

Gun Emplacements are Kill Points, Bastions are Kill Points, a Fortress of Redemption is 4 kill points.

Grey Templar wrote:Gun Emplacements are Kill Points, Bastions are Kill Points, a Fortress of Redemption is 4 kill points.

But what about battlefield debris?

No, neither of them give KP. They're just terrain pieces that either player can replace one of their model's shooting capabilities with.

 BlueDagger wrote:
Because they negate half the damn damage results? Math hammer the chance of stopping a Doom Scythe from firing in it's shooting phase. The chances of outright killing it are rather abysmal, it negates 1-3 on the dmg chart, 4 one removes the one gun, and 5 doesn't stop shooting.

Also remember that you need to take into account the cost of the unit you are putting with the gun. Fire Dragons aren't something you would typically just line up in your backfield, let alone taking the exarch with both powers. Reapers are at least doing what they would normally be doing, but you are not using the Exarch's gun that you upgraded to (or should have upgrade to).

Icarus adds +1 to the roll, so a weapon destroy or 5+ (destroy vehicle) prevents shooting.
The reaper exarch isn't losing any shooting. He takes the interceptor shot on the necron players turn, and shoots his own gun in the eldar phase. He's double dipping, making fast shot really worth having.


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:The reaper exarch isn't losing any shooting. He takes the interceptor shot on the necron players turn, and shoots his own gun in the eldar phase. He's double dipping

Does the eldar FAQ specifically allow this? Usually you can't fire your weapon the player turn after you take an intercept shot.

I beleive it states somehwere that you may fire another weapon (or his own weapon) if you use the interceptor shots. I dont have my book right in front of me so i dont know the page number, but I could have sworn I read that.

 Ailaros wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Gun Emplacements are Kill Points, Bastions are Kill Points, a Fortress of Redemption is 4 kill points.

But what about battlefield debris?

No, neither of them give KP. They're just terrain pieces that either player can replace one of their model's shooting capabilities with.

Yeah, I've never heard this VP argument before. Does this mean you can never table someone with an aegis, skyshield or comm link?

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I beleive it states somehwere that you may fire another weapon (or his own weapon) if you use the interceptor shots. I dont have my book right in front of me so i dont know the page number, but I could have sworn I read that.

It's under the Interceptor rule.

Pg38 of the main rulebook

At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.

Aegis defense lines arn't a unit. Gun Emplacements, Bastions, and Fortresses are.

 Ailaros wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Gun Emplacements are Kill Points, Bastions are Kill Points, a Fortress of Redemption is 4 kill points.

But what about battlefield debris?

No, neither of them give KP. They're just terrain pieces that either player can replace one of their model's shooting capabilities with.

Gun Emplacements arn't battlefield debries. They are a model type called Gun Emplacements.

 Ailaros wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:The reaper exarch isn't losing any shooting. He takes the interceptor shot on the necron players turn, and shoots his own gun in the eldar phase. He's double dipping

Does the eldar FAQ specifically allow this? Usually you can't fire your weapon the player turn after you take an intercept shot.

It's in the interceptor rule. If you fire a weapon with intercept, you cannot fire that in your shooting phase, but may fire another.
So an exarch with an EML can take 2 shots on my turn, and take 2 shots at arriving reserves on your turn.

It's really effective for the cost. Not that eldar have much that's all that cost effective anyway.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:So an exarch with an EML can take 2 shots on my turn, and take 2 shots at arriving reserves on your turn.

Oh, for some reason I thought that the exarch himself got interceptor. Nevermind.

Grey Templar wrote:Gun Emplacements arn't battlefield debries. They are a model type called Gun Emplacements.

Indeed, they are gun emplacements. Where are the rules for gun emplacements? Why, on page 105...

... under battlefield debris.

They are a killable model that comprises it's own unit, hence they are a KP.

Never though about the reaper's toggling EML 2 shot and Lascannon 2 shot between player turns. The only major issue with that is if there is nothing to intercept. Overall though it makes me think twice.