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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




So a friend of mine who's rather new to 40k and Orks asked me this question:  Does a Looted Land Raider still have it's Machine Spirit?

I know in the Chapter Approved books, it is specifically stated that LRs lose their Machine Spirit when orks take them, however the reference can be argued as outdated since it was for the 3rd edition rules (and Land Raiders have been updated since then). 

I don't recall seeing anything in Space Marine codex about this issue, and the Ork codex only mentions that they can't take upgrades from the parent codex (nothing is stated about losing upgrades the vehicle comes with).  My gut feeling is that they lose the Machine Spirit, but I just can't think of a way of proving it without referring to oudated materials.

 

 

   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

I know in the Chapter Approved books, it is specifically stated that LRs lose their Machine Spirit when orks take them, however the reference can be argued as outdated since it was for the 3rd edition rules (and Land Raiders have been updated since then).

Uh, however Codex Orks is not 'outdated'.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Haven't got codex on me now but nowhere does it make reference in the codex to the machine spirit.
Also doesn't it say you can take Ork and any upgrade the vehicle has access to from it's parent codex.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ghaz: Uh, I was referring to the chapter approved compilation, not the codex, unless you've seen a rule in the Ork codex that states the Land Raider loses it's machine spirit?

MrOrk2U: That's the problem, the Land Raider isn't buying the upgrade, it comes standard. You just aren't allowed to take upgrades from the parent codex (such as extra armour).

I guess a better question is: "Do vehicles the Orks take as looted vehicles lose the upgrades that were included in the base profile of the vehicle? For example, the Power of the Machine Spirit for Land Raiders"
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

Well, since the beginning of time, the machine spirit was destroyed when the orks looted a landraider. So I'd say until specifically written that this is no longer the case, the machine spirit is still destroyed.

See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Unless someone can actually find a rule that says the machine spirit is destroyed, I can't see how anyone can insist it is.

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
The "removal" of the Machine Spirit is in the CA books.
And now lets argue ourselves silly over the issue do they still apply or not ...

Borys
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Well, IMO the CA removal of the Machine Spirit for the Ork Looted LR is effecting the Ork Codex, which is still NOT updated for 4th ed. Therefore any clarifications for the Orks in CA would still be valid, no?

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






What part of the CA books? Some pieces are obviously still valid, but others are not. So we need a page number people.

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
CA 2003 pg 72
the People
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I'd just let the orks have it. ( just remember that the machine spirit works differently now). After all they are buying a 250 point vehicle with no ordnance and they are BS 2.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Well I'm an Ork player and I wouldn't take it just because I don't see anyone else taking it.

Just looking over dex again and it says they may take "any weapons options permitted from its army list"
Now I assume this only covers the mandatory weapons such as HB on a Russ as well as HB sponsons but doesn't include upgrades like pintle mounted storm bolters or hunter killer missiles.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I looked in CA2004, which does not have a Q&A for Orks, but does have a cut and paste codex update for Orks, which makes no mention of machine spirit. The Orks Q&A 4.0.1 from GW website has no mention of machine spirit. I would think that the new Q&A replaces the old Q&A, so that the omission of the machine spirit rule from the new Q&A would permit the land raider to keep its spirit. Now if the cut and paste codex update had changed the codex entry to get rid of the machine spirit, then that shouldn't be negated by the new Q&A as it alters the codex directly. But it doesn't. I think it should work.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Posted By Borys on 03/15/2006 1:33 PM
Ahoj!
CA 2003 pg 72
the People


Well, I can't seem to find that book. Got a quote for us? And what section is it in?

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
Chapter Approved 2003 aka Third Book of the Astronomican repeats word for word, with the same errors, the Transport Vehicles article from Chapter Approved 2002 aka Second Book of the Astronomican.
The difference is that CA 2003 includes an "open topped vehicles for the dim witted" paragraph on page 73.
The Transport Vehicles article is labelled as "miscelaneous rules".

The offending bit is in the section about the Land Raider.

"Occasionally a Land Raider is fielded by Orks as a looted vehicle. Generally the same rules apply. However, the Land Raider's capacity is limited to 5 mega-armoured Orks or 10 others. The Machine Spirit rules are not used for Looted land Raider as the orks cannot safely approach the Land Raider untill the Machoine Spirit has been disabled."

Borys
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Out of curiosity, doesn't the Ork codex say to refer to the vehicle's parent codex for rules?

If so, does the Space Marine Land Raider follow the rules in the CA transport vehicle section?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






So it's in a V3 transport rules article?

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
Nobody - even better, the Ork codex refers you to the 3rd edition rulebook;
Mauleed - yes; however, without that article we wouldn't know that Falcons/Waveserpents have a single orifice in the rear.

Borys
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Pinon Hills, CA

Posted By Borys on 03/16/2006 1:03 PM
Mauleed - yes; however, without that article we wouldn't know that Falcons/Waveserpents have a single orifice in the rear.

Borys


But don't we all?

"Plant more 'shrooms ladz, wez runn'n outta boyz" - RussWakelin, Grand Inquisitor 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




So I was finally able to bring up the cut and paste errata on the UK site, and apparently the wording is: A looted vehicle may only use Ork vehicle upgrades.

I guess that would be the answer right there, you can have the upgrades, you just can't use them.
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Posted By dreddnott on 03/16/2006 2:40 PM


You never know, with Xenos ...
Borys
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


@ Mauleed: The vehicle clarification article in CA: 2004 isn't 3rd edition specific as fas as I can tell. That said, it was clearly written during 3rd edition, and all of the principles of the article were indeed incorporated into the 4th edition rules (besides specific vehicle rules and restrictions, of course).

Where that leaves the "status" of that article is unknown.


@ Borys: The new Wargear book lists all of the access/fire points for vehicles.





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yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
Thank you Yakface.
However, this raises another issue - is that book "rules"?
I'm not interested in buying that book (as I have the BGB and all codexes), so MUST I buy it to play the game?

Borys
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


Borys: Unless you own all of the most current printings of every codex, being that you are the "rules guru" of your gaming group you should really consider purchasing this book.

It contains several updates to wargear that I haven't seen anywhere else (although I'm assuming they've been included in the most current printings of each codex).

As to whether it is "rules" or not, it certainly seems to be. Everything in it is part of the rules of the game. You can read the preface for the book and decide for yourself:


"This book is designed as a handy gaming aid for players of Warhammer 40,000. Within its pages you will find rules for every weapon, statistics for every troop type, and a complete alphabetical listing of every item of wargear and vehicle upgrade in the current range of Codex army books. All the corrections and clarifications found on the Games Workshop website have been incorporated, so the rules are completely up to date. Vehicle access and fire points are included too, plus there are background descriptions and artwork of many of the armaments. The book will serve as the ideal quick reference manual during your battles."


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





All the corrections and clarifications found on the Games Workshop website have been incorporated, so the rules are completely up to date.


That makes it worth while as well but you can still already have all of that if you had been collecting up till this point. Besides with the release of every other codex and rule AFTER that printing it becomes more and more worthless...

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Philadelphia

"This book is designed as a handy gaming aid for players of Warhammer 40,000. "

Is that anything like the 'gaming aids' on the GW website? 

Isn't this also the book with the 3+ save Space Marine Terminators?  Or did they do a stealth update, so that you need to buy the second edition one? 

 


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"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


@DaIronGob: As I pointed out, I own every codex, yet I have the first printing of each of them. The Wargear book at least gives me the updated wording for every peice of wargear, which is better than nothing, IMO. As Borys is the "go to guy" for rules in his group, it seems like he should probably have access to that information.

And yes, it does become less useful with the release of each codex, but then you also have the new codex, so you still have all the most current information. I'm not saying that the book is essential for everyone, just for some.


@Cruentus: Yep. The book has a couple of numerical typos. It still doesn't change the value of having the updated wargear wording when GW doesn't disclose those changes anymore and just prints new versions of their codexes.


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Sorry if this seems silly, but even though the SM Land Raider is given the Machine Spirit for "free", isn't it still considered a vehicle upgrade? And if so, doesn't that mean the Orks could not get it?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Sorry if this seems silly, but even though the SM Land Raider is given the Machine Spirit for "free", isn't it still considered a vehicle upgrade? And if so, doesn't that mean the Orks could not get it?


Logic would say yes but since there is no Land Raider entry with a lower points value reflecting the cost of the Land Raider without said upgrade you can see the problem.

Applying logic here would state that you would pay a reduced cost for the orks looted land raider but since that is totally against the rules it cannot be applied. Ork codex states to pay the cost listed in the entry from the host book (paraphrased), the entry lists the cost of the LR with the Machine Spirit and does not show a listing for a LR without it. It is being argued that the older CA books are worthless to this point so if the Orks loot the LR and the machine spirit comes in the cost of the vehicle then it can only be that they somehow get to use it... however insane that may be for now.

 

But as it were it appears the orks get the shaft if they take a looted landraider. Payinig full price for a lower BS and missing part of it that is included in the base point cost.

 


Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Yeah I see your point (I don't have the Ork's Codex) and I didn't know the exact wording. Even though there is no separate entry though the PotMS is still listed as an upgrade, the LR just gets it included.

Basically what it boils down to is I think you're right, the Ork players (once again) get the screw job on this one.

Eh, LR's are overrated anyway.

   
 
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