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rigeld2 wrote:I'm not objecting to that at all.

I object to the sense of entitlement some people seem to have, and the insulting comments made when people decline a game.

Understood, and I completely agree with that.

I agree with this sentiment too.

The real issue with this, as I have said before is "What is core 40k" and what is "40k + Extra rules".

If you agree to play core 40k, and then dump a Warhound down on the table, don't be surprised if people say "What the hell".

If I agreed to Play FLAMES OF WAR, and said to a friend "Happy to play Mid-War 1750 points" "Yes" "Okay here it is" and I produce a special vehicle from MID-WAR Monsters (a legitimate addon book for FOW featuring Prototype or experimental overpowered Tanks and vehicles) I would expect an "I'm not happy playing that, because it is Overpowered".

I would ,

1. Be unreasonable if i didn't recognise that it is special overpowered vehicle.
2. That it does contain a section covering non-standard rules to cover these unusual and specialist vehicles supplementing and adding to the FOW Core Rules.
3. Be unreasonable if I tried to portray that the other player is the one being unreasonable, when I have clearly been unreasonable and am pushing the boundaries of sportsmanship.

I certainly wouldn't bitch about the fact that the other player said "I don't want to play because this is clearly unfair" and then come up with excuses to try to make him look like he has a problem such as.

4. But it's Official BF.
5. Look it has balanced rules, it's not that over powered.
6. Start to accuse the other player of Moral Cowardice, or being afraid or too shy or unwilling to play because heis afraid of the unknown.
7. Start to look for ridiculous equivalents to reinforce my silly position (Like below).

Stupid equivalents.

"Fancy a 100m Race"
"Yeah okay"
"Let me put on my exoskeleton running suit"
"What? I thought it was a running race"
"It is, but I will be running on these. It's still fair we are both running"

I don't hate FW, I hate people who like to WAAC and stack everything in their favour through being complete A-holes and missing the point of this social hobby.

See, that implies that FW is overpowered. I don't think that all of it is.

The sentiment still stands, however.

Not all, but most things are slightly Overpowered, else you wouldn't buy them. Super expensive and crap stats, no thank you, they wouldn't sell.

Look at Contemptors, the Kheres Pattern Assualt Cannon (6 heavy AP4 Str 5 Rending) and a Cyclone Missile Launcher, a 5+ Inv from shooting and 6+ inv in hand to hand. + 1" to explosions and Armour 13 front, which means unless you immobilise it you've got a job killing it. It's also Fleet.


(Ordered a New Assault Cannon because the original was a miscast, this one is a stand in)





As you can see I love my FW Stuff, my FW 30k army is building all the time, but will not use it unless it's APOC/ CoD /30k or agreed as a FW Game before hand.

Compare that to standard SM Dreads, Furiso is close, but no INV save. The Contemptor is outrageously good , with two DCCW and Fleet it's a monster.

FW stuff is awesome, but too awesome for standard 40k it unbalances things.

KplKeegan wrote:But Imperial Armor does state that certain units are not aloud in a standard game of 40K; (at least in Imperial Armor 8) Flyers, Any vehicle with structure points, any monstrous creature with structure points, and certain campaign special characters as well...

The earlier books didn't always do that, though a lot of the "new" models from forge world ended up in the IA Apocalypse books which list unit FoC options for those items that can be played in a regular 40k game. This doesn't include any of the super heavies with structure points, or the apoc organizations, and so on. At least 1 flyer specifically says in its listing that it is treated as a fast skimmer when used in a regular 40k game and not as a flyer. Of course worry about fliers goes away when you just let your opponent target them with whatever and not just AA weapons for the sake of game enjoyment when they appear and someone wasn't expecting them.

Skriker

Compare that to standard SM Dreads, Furiso is close, but no INV save. The Contemptor is outrageously good , with two DCCW and Fleet it's a monster.

It comes with one dccw, TL heavy bolter, and a smoke launcher, and it costs 175 points, with fleet and 5++ range save (6++ melee)

The standard dreadnought comes for 105...

Also, thank you for being another "It's overpowered!" part of the crowd.

Look at Contemptors, the Kheres Pattern Assualt Cannon (6 heavy AP4 Str 5 Rending) and a Cyclone Missile Launcher, a 5+ Inv from shooting and 6+ inv in hand to hand. + 1" to explosions and Armour 13 front, which means unless you immobilise it you've got a job killing it. It's also Fleet.

225 points, it's near the cost of a land raider, and a shooty dread that explodes better isn't exactly a bonus.

A standard Gray Knight Psyfilemen is 130 points,

mwnciboo wrote:Not all, but most things are slightly Overpowered, else you wouldn't buy them. Super expensive and crap stats, no thank you, they wouldn't sell.

Hardly even most. I bought a bunch of Forge World stuff because I thought the models were great and after 25+ years of collecting GW minis and having pretty much "finished" armies I wanted to add some flavor to them with something new. I didn't even consider the rules when I bought them. The stuff I use most often isn't even remotely overpowered. The plague hulk is a short ranged defiler. The plague ogryn have FNP, but no ranged attacks at all. The ogryn berserkers are cool minis, with FNP, but if you roll well on your number of attacks kill themselves in a couple turns of melee and again no ranged attacks. The blood slaughterer is a cool mini with no ranged firing, except a harpoon that can bring a melee opponent closer that also has to move towards the nearest enemy directly. People call the blight drones unbalancing because CSMs in general don't have any decent Fast Attack options, but it doesn't that the fact that they are lightly armed and armored and go pop really easily. I also have a bunch of chaos dreadnoughts that have no special rules at all and are purely for appearances. Also building a chaos renegades army using the FW conversion parts. They are just IG and can't even field the tank or veteran spam available in the new IG codex. I've got others too and none of them are overpowered in the least, so I think the proper phrase is that "some" things are overpowered, and people buy them anyway. Heck a large percentage of their models are "replacements" for existing models or add ons for existing models that have absolutely "zero" rules changes about them and are bought strictly because they look cool and look different. That stuff is also expensive and still sells just fine. I know multiple people who bought built an entire codex DKoK army using nothing but Forge World figures. Has no special abilities or rules that no other IG army has, but they paid $1500 for all the parts to do the job. All for no power gain whatsoever.

Skriker

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Compare that to standard SM Dreads, Furiso is close, but no INV save. The Contemptor is outrageously good , with two DCCW and Fleet it's a monster.

It comes with one dccw, TL heavy bolter, and a smoke launcher, and it costs 175 points, with fleet and 5++ range save (6++ melee)

The standard dreadnought comes for 105...

Also, thank you for being another "It's overpowered!" part of the crowd.

Look at Contemptors, the Kheres Pattern Assualt Cannon (6 heavy AP4 Str 5 Rending) and a Cyclone Missile Launcher, a 5+ Inv from shooting and 6+ inv in hand to hand. + 1" to explosions and Armour 13 front, which means unless you immobilise it you've got a job killing it. It's also Fleet.

225 points, it's near the cost of a land raider, and a shooty dread that explodes better isn't exactly a bonus.

A standard Gray Knight Psyfilemen is 130 points,

Really.......So a Landraider is good in Hand to Hand Combat is it? A Landraider comes with Fleet does it? Land raider has an Invulnerable save does it? Does a Landraider insta kill Characters?

You are comparing an Armour Transport (which has formidable armament) with a Walker. Good call.

<rude text redacted; be frustrated if you wish, walk away from the conversation if you must, but don't be rude --Janthkin>

mwnciboo wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Compare that to standard SM Dreads, Furiso is close, but no INV save. The Contemptor is outrageously good , with two DCCW and Fleet it's a monster.

It comes with one dccw, TL heavy bolter, and a smoke launcher, and it costs 175 points, with fleet and 5++ range save (6++ melee)

The standard dreadnought comes for 105...

Also, thank you for being another "It's overpowered!" part of the crowd.

Look at Contemptors, the Kheres Pattern Assualt Cannon (6 heavy AP4 Str 5 Rending) and a Cyclone Missile Launcher, a 5+ Inv from shooting and 6+ inv in hand to hand. + 1" to explosions and Armour 13 front, which means unless you immobilise it you've got a job killing it. It's also Fleet.

225 points, it's near the cost of a land raider, and a shooty dread that explodes better isn't exactly a bonus.

A standard Gray Knight Psyfilemen is 130 points,

Really.......So a Landraider is good in Hand to Hand Combat is it? A Landraider comes with Fleet does it? Land raider has an Invulnerable save does it? Does a Landraider insta kill Characters?

You are comparing an Armour Transport (which has formidable armament) with a Walker. Good call.

<rude text redacted; be frustrated if you wish, walk away from the conversation if you must, but don't be rude --Janthkin>

I also compared it to something else that's got excellent ranged shooting. The Gray knights Rifledread (Psyfledread) what I was saying it was near as EXPENSIVE as a land raider.

At base175 it costs more than a standard issue dread, and as you just called it overpowered, I will contently point it's comparableness towards a very commonly seen dreadnought variant within the game.

The Psyfledread.

It contains 4 Twin Linked S8 Autocannon Shots at AP4 for only 135, it is near immune to stunned/shaken, it gives a -4 psyker penalty for targetting units within 12" of the dreadnought (or the dreadnought itself), and only takes up a heavy slot in an army that doesn't need

The 225 point contemptor you pointed out has a 24" assault cannon at S6, AP4 H6 with rending, and two S8 at far range shots. None of these being twin linked, and keeps its DCCW.

It has +1 WS, +1S, +1 frontal AV, +1 rear armor on the psyfledread. With two attacks base, and fleet and costs an elite slot in armies with already preferable elites: (Space marines, Dark Angels, and Black Templars) with it's only protection being the 5++

It's comparable to two psyfledreads (270 points) in cost, and rather effective in range (24") but as stated, it's rather expensive for what you get.

Does a Landraider insta kill Characters?

Why yes, with S8/S9 shots (multimelta, lascannon) it can.

A Landraider comes with Fleet does it?

Hmm, power of the machine spirit is pretty close, lets it drive to the maximum and still fire afterall.

Ok, off topic a little, I know, but are you allowed to use Malanthropes in standard games?

Anyway, I have no problems with people using Forge World against me, providing they're not using a super heavy unit in a normal game.

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Actually, his argument is:

It says on page 3 of IAAv2 that it is official for use in standard games. So, until GW says otherwise, it is official for use in standard games.

Though it is courteous to ask your opponent first in case they are unfamiliar with the rules.

It also says on page 1 of Zweischneid's Awsome Tank custom rules that it is designed for use in 40K standard games (with it being courteous to ask your opponent first). Also, as pointed out frequently, Forgeworld explicitly uses inverted commas to highlight that by 'standard' game they differentiate from Apocalypse, yet do not necessarily mean every single game played to the rules as written in the BRB (where it says, armies are chosen from the army lists in Codex books.. not IA, not Zweischneid's Awsome Tank custom rules or anything else btw).

Again, I see no reason to assume that game-design targeted at the inclusion in non-Apocalypse, 'standard' games equates to an all-time, universal blank pass to use them in EVERY game of 40K as a default, non-variant option. It just says that variant games using those units follow the standard rules outlined in the BRB, not the variants outlined in Apocalypse, which is the distinction that is made throughout the IAAv2.

Do you have access to the 40K licence? The GW logo and stamp on it? No didn't think so.

GW logo is on the FW books. GW is mentionned in the copyright. Hell FW does not even own the words they print. They are a publisher for IA books. EVERYTHING in there, pictures, rules, words, names are ALL property of GW. Something you cannot say about your tank.

Squigsquasher wrote:Ok, off topic a little, I know, but are you allowed to use Malanthropes in standard games?

Anyway, I have no problems with people using Forge World against me, providing they're not using a super heavy unit in a normal game.

They have a 40k stamp iirc.
I don't think they're that great as a unit, but that's not for this thread.