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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Can we talk about the quality of the design of the influences? Like, how terrifying it is that nBSG is their primary influence... Two good years and then the game will become an unwatchable mess?

I'm still looking forward to the games and the novels, but I'm not sure how you can have a huge sandbox of a wargaming universe built on soap opera personal drama.

I did say it was only the miniseries and first two seasons to be fair - I don't want any of the writer-strike soap opera debacle that came afterward! Even then, it was more the tone of the series (and other TV, movies and books since) that I was citing as the inspiration, rather than taking every aspect of it wholesale.

We're proud of what we created, and we hope that people will be excited about it.

Congratulations on living the dream. Im pretty jealous, as Im sure are many others.

 Pete Melvin wrote:
Congratulations on living the dream. Im pretty jealous, as Im sure are many others.

I definitely am! We've probably all wanted to make our own game at some point or another.

 Alpharius wrote:
ARMOR by John Steakley is one of my all time favorite books!

I've got this well read version on my shelf still:



I've always wanted a sequel, but it doesn't seem like Steakley wrote a whole lot after this...and of course, now it's too late!

So, knowing this bit of Inspiration Info has me even more excited!

I'm a dinosaur though, so I'm waiting for Dead Tree versions of the books!

Ordered it, lest I get baned for not belonging to the cool crowd.

Funny, I just went and bought Armor as well. Surprised I hadn't heard of this one before.

Keeping on topic here, I finished up the first book yesterday and was quite impressed. I went in with the impression that it would have a good story, but be a bit pulpy and need some editing, but it's a nice tight story that didn't go overboard with jargon and re-iterating the same information over. Just ordered Sacrifice and will start on it tonight.

Armor I've been meaning to read since I've been on Dakka.
Multiple users have suggested it over the years, but I'm sure that
I'll get to it soon.

Those covers for SciFi books usually look like crap, its a nice cover. Has it got go do with powered armor and aliens? I could handle that.

Thank you guys for responding!

I always love to hear peoples design process for world building as it is quite vigorious! Goodluck mate!

 BrookM wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
ARMOR by John Steakley is one of my all time favorite books!

I've got this well read version on my shelf still:

Spoiler:

I've always wanted a sequel, but it doesn't seem like Steakley wrote a whole lot after this...and of course, now it's too late!

So, knowing this bit of Inspiration Info has me even more excited!

I'm a dinosaur though, so I'm waiting for Dead Tree versions of the books!

Ordered it, lest I get baned for not belonging to the cool crowd.

Yay, Brook!

"Dammit, I cannot help but wonder:
Are you there, Felix?
Are you there?"

Man am I happy to see that as an influence in a science fiction game. Give me some scout armored units and I will be so incredibly stoked. Well, assuming some faction gets something neat like that in any case, but yeah. So good! Sorry, I'll keep on topic from here on out.

 Alpharius wrote:
ARMOR by John Steakley is one of my all time favorite books!

I've got this well read version on my shelf still:

Spoiler:

I've always wanted a sequel, but it doesn't seem like Steakley wrote a whole lot after this...and of course, now it's too late!

He was writing a sequel at the time of his death and there used to be an excerpt floating around but his fan site which hosted it appears to have closed down. Maybe one day the next of kin will allow the unfinished manuscript to be completed by someone else.

 darrkespur wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Can we talk about the quality of the design of the influences? Like, how terrifying it is that nBSG is their primary influence... Two good years and then the game will become an unwatchable mess?

I'm still looking forward to the games and the novels, but I'm not sure how you can have a huge sandbox of a wargaming universe built on soap opera personal drama.

I did say it was only the miniseries and first two seasons to be fair - I don't want any of the writer-strike soap opera debacle that came afterward! Even then, it was more the tone of the series (and other TV, movies and books since) that I was citing as the inspiration, rather than taking every aspect of it wholesale.

We're proud of what we created, and we hope that people will be excited about it.

I must have missed where you said that. Confidence: restored.

Guess we won't look forward to rolling for the Scotch save, or taking a leadership test for infidelity.

And I'm with Alpharius regarding the dead tree versions. As soon as I can read actual novels set in your universe, you will have "made it" as far as I'm concerned.


Just throwing this out for next year, but I hear there's a way to leverage a popular web forum into a Hugo Award.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GrimDork wrote:
Those covers for SciFi books usually look like crap, its a nice cover. Has it got go do with powered armor and aliens? I could handle that.

Yeah, it's sort of a next generation take on Starship Troopers, from what I remember. I can't honestly remember if I've even finished it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, I own the version with that cover instead of the later, more generic cover it was reprinted with. So, in effect, I'm as cool as that Cobra Kai dude who says you're gonna need a body bag.

The authors talked about their inspirations, so I figured I'd mention what mine were from a rules-writing perspective.

First thing to note is my firm belief that, similar to movies, there are no 'new' game mechanics to create in this day and age...pretty much everything has already been done or implemented in some variety or fashion, so at this point creating a game is really just about deciding what types of mechanics you like, when best to utilize them, and how to wrap them all together in a way that is pleasing and (hopefully) feels fresh.

I'm not going to go into the myriad of different games that inspired me (save for a couple big ones below) except to say that I purposely avoided cracking open specific rulebooks when writing MEdge as I didn't want to unintentially end up copying whole concepts outright.

There are definitely two games that inspired me more than any others from a conceptual standpoint, and one is actually a video game: Full Spectrum Warrior, which I believe came out on the original XBox. It is a squad-based tactical shooter, but what is kind of fascinationg about it is that it was originally designed to be a training tool for the US military and only then converted over to be a retail game.

What inspired me is that as a player, you pretty much only get to control individual fireteams, meaning you are totally unable to aim an individual soldier's firing and therefore you are almost never able to pick off an enemy soldier hiding behind cover when you're firing at them from their front. Because it was originally a training tool, its 'goal' was to teach you proper military strategy: mainly that you need to use one fireteam to pin down an enemy unit behind cover and then use your second fireteam to sweep around their flank and pick them off, and that is essentially the *only* way you can kill enemies who are in cover. Conversely, allowing your fireteams to stand out of cover (or get flanked by the enemy) results quickly in their demise.

It was fascinating/interesting to me that this game was willing to use abstraction to 'teach' its goals. Obviously in real life a solder firing at an enemy soldier has at least *some* chance to hit them, even when the enemy is taking cover, but this game chose to more or less eliminate that possibility in order to force placers to learn that they need to pin & outflank. Playing this game always made me wonder: Why don't miniature games use this kind of abstraction to help 'force' players to use something more akin to real tactics in their games? Now, I'm sure there are miniature games out there that do precisely this, but they certainly weren't something that was on my more mainstream radar.

When we were first sitting down (virtually) to come up with the MEdge universe, there was a big emphasis on making the background feel grounded and believable. That unfortunately (from my perspective as a rules writer) meant that a lot of fun rules mechanics just weren't going to be a possibility. For example, theme-wise, I knew there wasn't going to be anything like a caster throwing focus into units to help boost them as a unifying mechanic for the whole game. So instead, it actually made sense to go with something more grounded in reality like suppression, cover and flanking as the 'core' mechanics of the rules.

But just as with Full Spectrum Warrior, I tried to kind of build a lot of binary abstraction into the game to force players to make clear decisions about what they're doing with their units. For example, if your units move into cover, they automatically take cover (cause individual soldiers love their lives and want to protect themselves). If you're not going to take cover with your unit, then none of the models in it are allowed to end their move in/touching cover. This type of binary choice forces a player to make a tough choice *and* helps make it crystal clear at a glance to both players which units on the table are in cover and which are not.

Similarly, 'short range' is set at 6" (no matter the weapon) and it is this defining range where units get to first fire defensively if the enemy targets them. There are also several benefits that suddenly kick into gear when firing at short range to still make this a desirable thing you want to do (cover is reduced by 1 when firing at short range and weapons with the 'short range' ability typically double the number of shots they get to fire). When you add all these different abstract binary choices together, you hopefully get a game where it feels like the player who makes the most 'right' choices (and knows the probablity of the dice and also gets lucky too) will win the day.

My earilest drafts of the rules were hardline, super-duper abstract to the point of Full Spectrum Warrior: you essentially couldn't kill an enemy model if you were firing from their front arc while they were in cover (just suppress them). Eventually I had to tone this down a bit because there just isn't enough time in a miniature game to fully embrace the concept without makign the moveing and shooting mechanics streamlined to the point where you could play like 10-15 turns. But making the mechanics that streamlined would unfortunately turn off a lot of minaiture gamers in my estimation, so the whole concept was dialed back a bit. You'll still find that it is very hard to kill an enemy unit in cover when firing at them from the front, but it certainly is possible given the right weapon configurations and circumstances.

The second game that conceptually inspired me would be Epic Armageddon from GW. What I really love about Epic is a couple things: The cinematic blast markers used to visually show which units on the table are taking fire are naturally a big inspiration for how we implemented suppression in MEdge. But on top of that, I really like in Epic how it feels like each game turn is fairly long period of time, and you have ample time (movement) with your units to be able to choose where you think the best place for them to move to is (as opposed to being forced to move somewhere because the unit's movement rate hinders them). Epic also had the concept of two different types of shooting attacks: one at long range where the enemy couldn't respond and one at close/short range where the enemy gets to fire back (a firefight). I really like the concept of having different tiers of attacking, each with their own positives and negatives, so in MEdge we essentially have three: normal/long range (the enemy can't fire back, but your firing isn't comparitively all that deadly), short range (where the firing is more deadly, but the enemy gets to fire back) and close quarters (even more deadly than short range plus the ability to drive the enemy back, but at the cost of giving the enemy unit even more chances to hurt your unit). Those '3 tiers' of attacking also flows back to the idea about many binary choices that players have to consider and decide when/how to use them in order to win the game.

I loved the Armor book and I think it is one of the few I kept from my early years. Not so much for the psychological aspect of it as for the description of the Ants and their methods of warfare. I like what I hear about the rules as well. An emphasis on binary choices and a "large movement, short ranged shooting" approach fits with my thinking of what an 28mm sci fi war-game is like. It has the effect of making the table larger, which is needed.

Gonna be totally honest here though - it is unlikely a setting can ever surpass the big 4-0-K for me. I do think you're going about it the right way with novels and such to support the concepts. Hopeful the rules will be at least somewhat adaptable to playing games in any universe. A "build your own units" system would cover that nicely. There are some serious cons to that from a game company standpoint though, starting with hurting the sales of your own figures and ending with making faction design pretty complicated, so I understand totally not wanting to go that way.

Yakface- The rule introduction sounds very promising, though there is a bit of a question: does the game play feel too constricted with so much changing at 6 inches? Did you have a reason why you went for that binary range as opposed to something else?

DrRansom wrote:
Yakface- The rule introduction sounds very promising, though there is a bit of a question: does the game play feel too constricted with so much changing at 6 inches? Did you have a reason why you went for that binary range as opposed to something else?

I just needed/wanted a range where short ranged weapons (shotguns/pistols/etc) feel like they should really kick into an extra gear and can dominate. But at the same time, there needed to be a longer range available for these short ranged weapons to still be able to fire while not triggering defensive fire, so that meant that 'short range' needed to be somewhere below what feels right for short ranged weapons' max range (typically 12"). I originally had it set as 3", but after trying it out, it just felt way too restrictive/wrong. Alternatively, 6" felt 'right' when played...it is more or less half range of most weapons you'd imagine being 'short ranged', so it kind of just makes sense.

Yakface, you mentioned the games that inspired you, but is there a game you consciously avoided being influenced by?

Cough...40k...cough...broken...cough

As I said earlier, most people will be grateful if the GW approach to designing games is given a wide berth.

Yes, years ago they did great work, and we shouldn't forget that, but I hope that this game doesn't become horribly imbalanced every time a new faction is released.

Hey so just offhand, will the un-nameable authors be using pseudonyms when they put stuff out or are we likely to see titles come out with their normal names on products? I'm certainly curious and I'll end up interweb sleuthing in any case. I do love seeing what my favorite authors are up to.

They'll be using their own names, and at the right time we'll be telling the world the fact, for sure! We're really happy with the authors we've got signed up, and one of the most pleasing aspects of this whole project was pitching the Maelstrom's Edge universe to these authors, and seeing their very positive reactions. Some had prior commitments making their involvement impossible this year, but we're hoping we'll snare them for later projects.

On a further note, do you guys also find yourself influenced by from writing video games? I'm always curious if some mediums are more or less beneficial than others in the creative spaces given that some things seem either more visually representable or more interactive, and how that affects what you see in your minds eye as you write.

I'm actually a video game writer by trade (Endless Legend from Amplitude Studios the latest game I've worked on), and creating narrative in such an interactive medium is incredibly challenging. For a writer, one thing video games are good at teaching you is how you can use the environmental aspects to help tell a story. On the whole though, I don't think I'm overly influenced by writing in games; for me they still haven't solved lots of knotty problems like telling a linear narrative in a player-driven space. Novels and other constrained mediums are still king. For getting the sense of a living, breathing universe though? Games are incredible at that. If Maelstrom's Edge can one day became a video game...well, I can dream...

 SteveGaskell wrote:
[(Endless Legend from Amplitude Studios the latest game I've worked on)

 SteveGaskell wrote:

Hey so just offhand, will the un-nameable authors be using pseudonyms when they put stuff out or are we likely to see titles come out with their normal names on products? I'm certainly curious and I'll end up interweb sleuthing in any case. I do love seeing what my favorite authors are up to.

They'll be using their own names, and at the right time we'll be telling the world the fact, for sure! We're really happy with the authors we've got signed up, and one of the most pleasing aspects of this whole project was pitching the Maelstrom's Edge universe to these authors, and seeing their very positive reactions. Some had prior commitments making their involvement impossible this year, but we're hoping we'll snare them for later projects.

On a further note, do you guys also find yourself influenced by from writing video games? I'm always curious if some mediums are more or less beneficial than others in the creative spaces given that some things seem either more visually representable or more interactive, and how that affects what you see in your minds eye as you write.

I'm actually a video game writer by trade (Endless Legend from Amplitude Studios the latest game I've worked on), and creating narrative in such an interactive medium is incredibly challenging. For a writer, one thing video games are good at teaching you is how you can use the environmental aspects to help tell a story. On the whole though, I don't think I'm overly influenced by writing in games; for me they still haven't solved lots of knotty problems like telling a linear narrative in a player-driven space. Novels and other constrained mediums are still king. For getting the sense of a living, breathing universe though? Games are incredible at that. If Maelstrom's Edge can one day became a video game...well, I can dream...

That's pretty awesome on both counts man Can't wait to see some more details on the universe. You guys are answering enough questions that I'm already kinda building up a pretty good picture in my head about it all even not knowing more about the individual factions and such yet. I appreciate all the feedback, it's really enjoyable to read.

Not sure if you can answer this next one without spoilers, but can you tell me about how the Maelstrom advances? I know earlier it was said through the Cybel network, but does it flow through the network randomly down different lines to the closest star systems, or does it roll like a massive tide ever outward but down the path of least resistance in the network? I guess what I'm getting at (trying to imagine good imagery for description) does it roll out like the explosive force when the deathstar was destroyed in star wars, or more like electricity picking a path outwards on a network of lines connecting the stars, sorta like a big cosmic spiderweb. Does that make sense?

The reason I ask is because I wondered if the various people of the galaxy had any way of at least guessing where it would pop up next if they could visualize the network, but that might be a spoilerific sort of question.

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:

 SteveGaskell wrote:

Hey so just offhand, will the un-nameable authors be using pseudonyms when they put stuff out or are we likely to see titles come out with their normal names on products? I'm certainly curious and I'll end up interweb sleuthing in any case. I do love seeing what my favorite authors are up to.

They'll be using their own names, and at the right time we'll be telling the world the fact, for sure! We're really happy with the authors we've got signed up, and one of the most pleasing aspects of this whole project was pitching the Maelstrom's Edge universe to these authors, and seeing their very positive reactions. Some had prior commitments making their involvement impossible this year, but we're hoping we'll snare them for later projects.

On a further note, do you guys also find yourself influenced by from writing video games? I'm always curious if some mediums are more or less beneficial than others in the creative spaces given that some things seem either more visually representable or more interactive, and how that affects what you see in your minds eye as you write.

I'm actually a video game writer by trade (Endless Legend from Amplitude Studios the latest game I've worked on), and creating narrative in such an interactive medium is incredibly challenging. For a writer, one thing video games are good at teaching you is how you can use the environmental aspects to help tell a story. On the whole though, I don't think I'm overly influenced by writing in games; for me they still haven't solved lots of knotty problems like telling a linear narrative in a player-driven space. Novels and other constrained mediums are still king. For getting the sense of a living, breathing universe though? Games are incredible at that. If Maelstrom's Edge can one day became a video game...well, I can dream...

That's pretty awesome on both counts man Can't wait to see some more details on the universe. You guys are answering enough questions that I'm already kinda building up a pretty good picture in my head about it all even not knowing more about the individual factions and such yet. I appreciate all the feedback, it's really enjoyable to read.

Not sure if you can answer this next one without spoilers, but can you tell me about how the Maelstrom advances? I know earlier it was said through the Cybel network, but does it flow through the network randomly down different lines to the closest star systems, or does it roll like a massive tide ever outward but down the path of least resistance in the network? I guess what I'm getting at (trying to imagine good imagery for description) does it roll out like the explosive force when the deathstar was destroyed in star wars, or more like electricity picking a path outwards on a network of lines connecting the stars, sorta like a big cosmic spiderweb. Does that make sense?

The reason I ask is because I wondered if the various people of the galaxy had any way of at least guessing where it would pop up next if they could visualize the network, but that might be a spoilerific sort of question.

Those are very good questions! Stephen and I are both working on some longer, more formal posts talking about the cybel network and the Maelstrom as we know it's important to understanding how our universe works - you should expect to see them pop up in the next few days.

Pinning down the mechanics of cybel travel and the Maelstrom was the toughest, most headache inducing bit of writing I've ever done

In regard to the rules: now i know a bit more, i am even more interested!

I always call Epic the best game i know.
A 28mm type game of the same quality is exactlyt what is still missing. Something that feels realistic and balanced in it's own scale of warfare.

The only thing i am "worried" about in this type of abstraction is that the equipment, weaponry and skill of the individual model is of less importance, and thus the individual minature.
And the individual miniatures is what many love in this hobby.

Dystopan Legions from Spartan games does the same thing.
It's OK, quite balanced and it works.
But somehow on the skirmish scale it feels strange that the individual model is not that important. For me the type of ruleset does not feel quite right.

I hope this one will feel better. Just a bit more Inquisitor, Infinity or (yes i write this ;-) 40k, and a bit less Dystopian Legions.

 Alpharius wrote:
Off Topic 'joke' posts - obviously?

As for the other stuff - I'm pretty sure you can talk about design, quality, influences, etc.

Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?

Sorry, I was warned via PM to stop being critical of the model design. When I asked where it was appropriate to discuss the model design, I received no reply.

I was not talking about assless chaps.

It's more about thread derailment - criticism is welcome, it's just joke posts or repeating the same thing over and over that can get sticky. Because we're interested in the game, this thread has like 20+ mods reading it constantly to see new pics etc , so you may have felt it was more heavily moderated. But we're really going to strive hard not to do that! Just keep it on topic (which does mean not only jokes or the same post content over and over) and polite, like anywhere on the site, and you will be totally fine

Hope that clarifies, I'd actually been meaning to PM you but figured a response here might clear it up best. I have certainly been critical of some things (not all in this thread, some in-person or by PM) and I know the team does welcome criticism, like any good company, as long as it follows site rules. Hope this helps

 judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Off Topic 'joke' posts - obviously?

As for the other stuff - I'm pretty sure you can talk about design, quality, influences, etc.

Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?

Sorry, I was warned via PM to stop being critical of the model design. When I asked where it was appropriate to discuss the model design, I received no reply.

I was not talking about assless chaps.

And I was making fun of Doug's love of Mantic while he was being critical of the presented models and my post was edited....I've never seen that in any other thread. So yeah, heavily moderated thread is heavily moderated.

So, if we can't discuss the models or other people's reactions to the models in a news and rumors thread.....I guess we can just talk about the rules?

 judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Off Topic 'joke' posts - obviously?

As for the other stuff - I'm pretty sure you can talk about design, quality, influences, etc.

Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?

Sorry, I was warned via PM to stop being critical of the model design. When I asked where it was appropriate to discuss the model design, I received no reply.

I was not talking about assless chaps.

Hi, I think you were right to raise your observations of the wrist angles and you raised it constructively. As someone who professionally has a knowledge of human anatomy I understand your point. You view was noted. If I may comment though, you kept trying to make your point, a lot. That may have been the reason for the PM, I don't know so can't comment. I have had issues with model design before and choose not to buy them. My feedback stops at that point, it doesn't help anyone to repeatedly try and rub in a flaw.

That said, you are allowed your views. I accept your point. You should not be over-moderated and let us hope this is not the case. To be gagged would be wrong.

My life is too short to get too stressed over some things though. Therefore I choose to believe the armour is an exoskeleton with inbuilt technology to prevent repetitive strain injury/drop wrist/fractured wrist from recoil etc etc. I'm siding with the rule of cool, I hope you can respect my view in the same way that I respect your's

See my post above agnosto - you can discuss the models, criticize them, etc all you want. There so many of us watching this thread, that I may have accidentally doubled up on what another mod was doing. But we're going to strive hard not to do that!

 TP^DC Deputy Manager wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Off Topic 'joke' posts - obviously?

As for the other stuff - I'm pretty sure you can talk about design, quality, influences, etc.

Maybe try to avoid 'assless chaps' references though?

Sorry, I was warned via PM to stop being critical of the model design. When I asked where it was appropriate to discuss the model design, I received no reply.

I was not talking about assless chaps.

Hi, I think you were right to raise your observations of the wrist angles and you raised it constructively. As someone who professionally has a knowledge of human anatomy I understand your point. You view was noted. If I may comment though, you kept trying to make your point, a lot. That may have been the reason for the PM, I don't know so can't comment. I have had issues with model design before and choose not to buy them. My feedback stops at that point, it doesn't help anyone to repeatedly try and rub in a flaw.

That said, you are allowed your views. I accept your point. You should not be over-moderated and let us hope this is not the case. To be gagged would be wrong.

My life is too short to get too stressed over some things though. Therefore I choose to believe the armour is an exoskeleton with inbuilt technology to prevent repetitive strain injury/drop wrist/fractured wrist from recoil etc etc. I'm siding with the rule of cool, I hope you can respect my view in the same way that I respect your's

Exalted for cool headed-ness.

One word to sum up the release of this: "professional". I have been absolutely blown away by the polish this game seems to have. While I'm not in the market for a new game, I hope this pans out. More competition will only sharpen the rest of the companys out there.

 RiTides wrote:
It's more about thread derailment - criticism is welcome, it's just joke posts or repeating the same thing over and over that can get sticky.

Hope to see this moderated in GW threads as well then!

 RiTides wrote:
It's more about thread derailment - criticism is welcome, it's just joke posts or repeating the same thing over and over that can get sticky. Because we're interested in the game, this thread has like 20+ mods reading it constantly to see new pics etc , so you may have felt it was more heavily moderated. But we're really going to strive hard not to do that! Just keep it on topic = which does mean not only jokes or the same post content over and over) and polite, like anywhere on the site, and you will be totally fine

Hope that clarifies, I'd actually been meaning to PM you but figured a response here might clear it up best. I have certainly been critical of some things (not all in this thread, some in-person or by PM) and I know the team does welcome criticism, like any good company, as long as it follows site rules. Hope this helps

It's hard to swallow the "criticism is welcome" line when I'm told that the "announcement post is linked to our livelihoods so we need to keep it fairly on track with the reveal". Which is fine, if the reveal/N&R thread is just for only talking about the announcement, then I assume there's other threads for talking about actual content - or substance, as it were - but again, I received no reply when asked where the official thread to go to discuss the design/etc would be.

It's obviously heavily moderated not because of new pictures, but because you guys are all attempting to remain as neutral as possible as this is a neutral website that is now pushing a commercial product. This has obviously been in development for years so I'm sure all the mods had time to prep for the public discussion, especially related to that fact.

Anyways, if, as you say, we can discuss model design (and be critical of them) here, then that's all I need to know. Now, I agree that I was repeating myself when it came to the the poorly-designed 'broken wrist' model, but when it was apparent that it was a physical impossibility for anyone with human-like bone structure to hold and utilize tools in such a manner, it was bizarre when several other posters though it was merely nit-picking or an acceptable design if you just looked at it at an angle that obscured the design mistake. That has been pointed out and I'm sure will be discussed to death in the unmoderated Kickstarter comments when it launches, but there are many other aspects that merit discussion of the OTHER models designs and I am glad that we can discuss them in this thread.