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I kinda want to see a stat line for Nurgle terminates now. I feel like they are going to be pretty tough.

 Jaxler wrote:
To those of f you saying terminators were never viable, I'd like to remind you about grey Knights in 5th/6th.

They weren't good; they just happened to slot into wht gw has lovingly just reffered to as 'loopholes'.

Taking GK termies only worked when you started building broke deathstars, exploiting wound allocation and delivered characters. Both them and bikenobs were 'nerfed to gak because of it when they fixed wound allocation.

I certainly hope the changes to IC's mean that we can game wounds on expensive units again.

 Jaxler wrote:
To those of f you saying terminators were never viable, I'd like to remind you about grey Knights in 5th/6th.

I don't recall terminators being the reason GK were good in 5th ed. And GK were not that great in 6th. Paladins were good in late 5th, but still were not the major reason for GK nonsense. GK in 5th used almost no actual GK, but instead ran henchman spam, dreadnaught spam, and Razorback Spam. Tons of S6 and 8 Shooting, that shrugged off most damage.

There was a short window in 5th where deathwing were an anti-meta army and performed decently. But typically they were not great due to low mobility, damage output, and only so-so durability.

 Jaxler wrote:
To those of f you saying terminators were never viable, I'd like to remind you about grey Knights in 5th/6th.

The ones that used Wound allocation sheningans in 5th alongside Draigo?

Yeah, basically that. 6e kiboshed those tricks, then the one-two punch of Eldar, now with Bladestorm, and Tau, now with more plasma, kiboshed most of the rest of it.

 davou wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
To those of f you saying terminators were never viable, I'd like to remind you about grey Knights in 5th/6th.

They weren't good; they just happened to slot into wht gw has lovingly just reffered to as 'loopholes'.

Taking GK termies only worked when you started building broke deathstars, exploiting wound allocation and delivered characters. Both them and bikenobs were 'nerfed to gak because of it when they fixed wound allocation.

I certainly hope the changes to IC's mean that we can game wounds on expensive units again.

terminators in general were pretty good in 5th where D weapons were not a thing let alone common and there were only a few ap2 weapons around

I just hope they make terminators min squad 3 now

No, they weren't because every power weapon in the game was AP2. Plus, plasma was a VERY common sight.

Martel732 wrote:
No, they weren't because every power weapon in the game was AP2. Plus, plasma was a VERY common sight.

metas certainly varied, but you saw a whole lot more terminators in 5th edition tournament lists than you do now.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they weren't because every power weapon in the game was AP2. Plus, plasma was a VERY common sight.

metas certainly varied, but you saw a whole lot more terminators in 5th edition tournament lists than you do now.

Assault Terminators, which was when they first gained their 3++ out of combat shields.

jade_angel wrote:
Yeah, basically that. 6e kiboshed those tricks, then the one-two punch of Eldar, now with Bladestorm, and Tau, now with more plasma, kiboshed most of the rest of it.

The loss of decent invuls, usable psychic powers, psybolt, free hammers, Grand Strategy, and the 2++ challenge tank in the 7e GK book didn't help either.

It's good to know that the answer to OP looks like a "yes"

2 Wounds isn't what Terminators needed but it's better than nothing.

 Rippy wrote:
It's good to know that the answer to OP looks like a "yes"

Well, no one should jump the gun yet. A lot of this now hinges on:
* What do they cost?
* Is the storm bolter a decent gun? (i.e. will bolt weapons have a -1 save mode)
* What is the range of expected ASM's?
* Do they retain additional save shenanigans (ignoring certain amounts of ASM, re-rolls, unmodified saves, AoS-style mortal wound saves, etc.)?

And probably a few others.

If high-end weapons still have a -6 ASM ala 2nd Edition then they'll need more than a 2+ to survive. If the storm bolter is still a wet noodle then they are still just a glorified heavy weapons team that can take a punch. If they have no other save tricks beyond a 2+ then high ASM's will eat them alive. If they make them more expensive then it sort of undoes that second wound.

I wont count my chickens yet. But if GW can make terminators and Dreadnaughts good, then my DW will be happy.

So, guessing from those stats NDK is going to be a beast.

Not for the Space Wolves it won't.
33ppm comes standard with Storm Bolter and every Power Weapon except the Powerfist.
On the bright side I can nab a TH/SS combo for 15 points, on the downside just about every other Space Wolf unit does melee better.

Wolf Guard 18ppm + bike 7ppm + Shield 15ppm + Thunder Hammer 30ppm

Terminator costs 48 points, has a 2+ and 3++ and a jink save, moves six inches + d6 run or 2d6 charge or deepstrikes in 2nd turn at the earliest (Void Claws hit first turn but only have twin Wolf Claws).

Bike Guard costs a steep 70 points but has 3+ and 3++, +1 toughness, relentless twinlinked boltgun, Hammer of Wrath, moves twelve inches + twelve inch turbo boost or 2d6 charge and can sweep.

TWC.

Well they've cut Destroyer Weapons so that should truly help some.

https://twitter.com/GeekJockPete/status/856833455568629761

You just made my day.

If taking TDA gives HQs +1 wound I think it will finally be a viable (perhaps even preferable) alternative to Artificer Armor.

D weapons didn't hurt terminators. They've been bad basically forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they weren't because every power weapon in the game was AP2. Plus, plasma was a VERY common sight.

metas certainly varied, but you saw a whole lot more terminators in 5th edition tournament lists than you do now.

I didn't consider them viable at all. Weight of fire was a thing in 5th as well.

Martel732 wrote:
D weapons didn't hurt terminators. They've been bad basically forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they weren't because every power weapon in the game was AP2. Plus, plasma was a VERY common sight.

metas certainly varied, but you saw a whole lot more terminators in 5th edition tournament lists than you do now.

I didn't consider them viable at all. Weight of fire was a thing in 5th as well.

They've been bad in standard 40k for a while but do are a lot of success in 30k. Gw are essentially getting rid of super friends via keywords which was basically what they said in the livetsream. Meaning with less powerful deathstats tankier terminators who are also promised more survival rules. I think they could become usable. 8th will flip most units on their head and I think this is the first time they can truly shine.

Admittedly in 5th the only way they worked was design and 20 paladins for 1850. Normal gk terminators were pretty bad in comparison. And even then purifiers in razorbacks was far stronger.

I am hoping termies in a land raider will be good again

Given that it looks like it will be tough to kill a Land Raider, its possible. My guess is with the massive increase in number of wounds, we will see multi-wound weapons come back like Fantasy used to have. With 1 unsaved wound multiplying into D3, D6, D3+1, etc... But even with that, a 20 wound T10* Landraider will likely survive a few turns.

*just a guess at their statline, they could have more wounds.


Grey Knight Terminators look like they'll be even better. I just hope they don't dumb down psychic powers and make them uninteresting ranged weapons with a "psychic power" skin on them.

Alright, a little more info to work with now.

First, from facebook (with regards to the Terminator's save):

Just the 1 D6, but with 2 wounds and a few other special rules to help keep them alive too...

So that's a good sign.

Further, we have some good showings with the weapons preview today. Unlike 2nd Edition it doesn't look like small arms will possess an inherent AP value for the most part (hurray!) and better yet, it looks like they're sticking to the AoS-style -1 to -3 range. We may see a -4, but I'm not too nervous on that (more likely we will get something like AoS mortal wounds).

So this means before any special rules, terminators are only likely to ever get dumped down to a 5+ save from the heaviest man-portable anti-tank weapons. Hell, this means marines in normal power armour actually get a save vs. LasCannons now. So currently, at worst, terminators are quite a bit more survivable than they were. With variable damage and two wounds, they will even survive one-in-six hits from a LasCannon that they fail to save.

Unfortunately, this is a bit of a double-edged sword. If bolters have no AP, then storm bolters likely wont have them either. So chances are, terminators will still be a bit light on firepower unless other changes occur.

On the other, other hand, tactical terminators are actually looking a lot better in hand-to-hand now. Base 3+ to hit with two attacks, power fists, good saves and multiple wounds? Even being 1" slower, that is a pretty good combo. If they can get a charge off it will be pretty devastating.

So now all that's left is seeing the rest of their special rules and equipment alongside what they cost now. But things are looking better for them than it has in a great many editions.

Yeah, it definitely looks like terminators may be at a good spot durabilitywise, which was really the only problem they had.

Sure, stormbolters aren't amazing or anything, but they're not awful either. They weren't the problem terminators had previously. The problem was that they didn't have the firepower for how durable they were. Now that they have durability, their firepower isn't a real issue.

The fact that terminators can potentially strike first in combat is already awesome. Everything else is gravy.

Also, I would bet money that stormbolters will be improved. See how terminators carry them one handed? What if they had pistol rules allowing to be used in cc or something? They can do this now.

I guess there's still hope that storm bolters get a higher ROF i guess?

I'm cautiously optimistic that they will do something to make the storm bolter differ from a regular bolter just because they seem to be trying to make every weapon useful and all the units more usable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, it definitely looks like terminators may be at a good spot durabilitywise, which was really the only problem they had.

Sure, stormbolters aren't amazing or anything, but they're not awful either. They weren't the problem terminators had previously. The problem was that they didn't have the firepower for how durable they were. Now that they have durability, their firepower isn't a real issue.

The firepower is a huge issue. Stormbolters are awful currently and will probably be awful in 8th as well.

 ILegion wrote:
I guess there's still hope that storm bolters get a higher ROF i guess?

I'm cautiously optimistic that they will do something to make the storm bolter differ from a regular bolter just because they seem to be trying to make every weapon useful and all the units more usable.

Well if the Rapid Fire type is changed the way most are theorising (RF X = X Shots times 2 under half range)
Then the Storm bolter may be RF 2
Maybe the combi-bolter too (Never made sense to me that chaos had a weapon that was modelled virtually the same but with different rules)

So a guy at GW said terminators will have 2 wounds in 8th... is this confirmed or bull ?

usmcmidn wrote:
So a guy at GW said terminators will have 2 wounds in 8th... is this confirmed or bull ?

Where have you been?

Yes, GW released some sample units' stats yesterday and termies were one of them.