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Well we knew that from the Adepticon stuff when they talked up every unit having "bespoke rules".

First, the Sustained Fire Die was removed...

Then, the Red Whippy Stick was no longer in the box...

Then, came a day without Templates...

Are you telling me that we may someday have a starter box without useless or redundant plastic crap, filled only with spectacular miniatures? What has the world come to?

If you are taking away my useless templates and plastic rules then give me back my cardboard scenery!

And my cardboard ork dread!

I still have mixed feelings. I'm glad GW for once decided to actually announce a new edition rather than just going quiet for several months then surprising us. I'm glad they are making a brand new edition rather than just another revision of 3rd edition.

I'm worried about the "bespoke rules", AoS style morale system and in general this feeling like Age of SigmarGuilliman: 40,000.

 insaniak wrote:

 joseph_curwen wrote:
... one of the biggest criticisms of 'AoS,' in the beginning was THEY'RE MAKING AOS JUST LIKE 40K.

That was never one of the biggest criticisms of AoS. I don't think I ever heard anyone make that claim at all.

I made the criticism that they were killing a game that had a style unique from 40k and thus more likely to appeal to people who don't love 40k already and replacing it with a system that is more likely to appeal to people who already like or would have liked 40k.

Though I never said they were making AoS "just like" 40k. There's a distinction between what I think is a game that is likely to appeal to a similar audience and a game that is "just like" another game.

A few thoughts of my own:

I have the tendency to get just about every codex I can get. Missed the bandwagon on stuff like Sanctus Reach and Baal, them not being full codices and my interests floating elsewhere at the time, but I do have Traitor's Hate, Traitor Legions, Wrath of Magnus, the three Gathering Storms, Imperial Agents, etc. Then this anouncement made them all into just fluff-books, what rules there are in them will be invalidated in days, weeks, months, but "soon" anyways. Do I feel miffed? No, I still have great fluff-books. But yes, I would have loved for a little more mileage there on the rules parts. I know I can always stick to 7th (6th, 5th, heck, I even have the original Rogue Trader at home, and not some anniversary reprint if I want to go back an edition or seven...). However, I chose to buy them anyways, and I have seen a few edition changes already, so this didn't come as a surprise. To say I will now suddenly turn my back to a hobby I have had for quite a few years... Nah. Too much fun still to be had. I am currently working on a Tyranid force. Perhaps this new edition might have them hit the table and Schmataghlap knows even win a round or two.

Like Tzeentch, I am not a die-hard conservative man. Unlike it, I can be utilizing my own version of the Stubborn special rule from time to time. This doesn't stop me from acknowledging that sometimes change is good. If the bloat can be cut, the rules streamlined, even through some part of AoSsification, and I can still have a fun game with friends, bring it on! Right now I have played more games of AoS than I ever did Fantasy Battles. When Warhammer 40K gets a complete overhaul, maybe adressing a couple of balance issues at the same time, I might even see a tournament again, while now avoiding them like the newest Nurglish Plague because of the generally WAAC attitudes of most (not all, I know) players there. At least in those that I have seen, and where the fun was absolutely manhandled out of there. Besides, free Core rules online. What's not to like about that? You can get 'em, test 'em, and like or dislike 'em. And then choose whether or not you would spend extra money on GW, or bring all that hard earned cash to different companies.

Not sure about the Nu-Marines. Honestly, I don't even know what they are. There is this image floating around, to which the maker admitted it to be a conversion, yet the Marine shown has quite a few uncanny similarities with what we see in the newer image, where some bigger-looking Space Marines are being painted. Interestingly, though, there is also a box of Devastators near there, them looking like the current size and adding, perhaps erroneously so, the assumption the parts are still interchangeable. For all I know, these 'new' Marines might just be 'old' Marines who just learned how to stand straight, as opposed to the spread-legs-pose most Marines have now. This besides some actual scale increase over the years. My guess is to just wait and see. They might indeed be a completely new unit with bigger Marines under the influence of some Guilliman Juice. It does, however, have another effect.

With the questions raised about a possible new size for Space Marines in general (more like the true-scale Marines), I know of at least three people who are now waiting for a release, or at least a statement with solid info, before buying any more boxes of 'old' Marines. They wanted to start collecting, building and painting a Space Marines force, from a small Armageddon force to an entire Battle Company. Like me, they are now holding back a bit. While three people, four including myself, holding back buying Space Marines a bit isn't going to plummet GW sales to the negative numbers, can the same be said if all of a sudden 400, or 4.000 people do so, or (gasp) maybe even 40.000 people? The same goes for Death Guard. I have a ton of parts (some GW, some FW, some Spellcrow) in the basement, to build a (Traitor Legions style) Death Guard force. Will the new Death Guard Plage Marines fit into that, size-wise? Wait and see, but also holding back any purchases until I have a bit more clarity. I know the missus enjoys that train of thought, though. And it allows me to focus more on building and painting what I already have, like every box of Tyranids I find in the basement... However, in this I also limit myself to a lot of the more basic troops, stuff one can expect not to change too much. But even then, not knowing how stuff will work in the new edition causes me to hold back building everything. Imagine what happens (youtube will likely show us) if all of a sudden Grav weapons are dumbed down to what is now effectively a slightly stringer Boltgun? I know of quite a few Space Marine players who suddenly converted all their Devastators to have Grav Cannons, their bikers to carry Gravguns, and their Sergeants to have a Grav Pistol. And they didn't use magnets to make all those options fully interchangeable.

Some time ago, just before the first rumours started to appear about a new edition of WH40K, I began work on a Word document which I titled "Warhammer 41.000" and looking back I noticed I made that into a mish-mash of current edition rules, a bit of Rogue Trader stuff (vehicles with Toughness and armour saves, etc.) and one or two things I came up with myself. I never finished it, and right now I doubt I will, waiting for the new rules to become available. Like me, others have started their own versions, or left for different pastures, some greener, some more disappointing. Good for them, good for me, good for you. I like to think there isn't a better game, just a different game. In the end, a lot of this is dependent on your vision, your expectations, and through those your opinion of a game. I appreciate how a lot of people agree to disagree and show a healthy dose of respect for other people's opinions, even if those differ from their own. People can and do like AoS. They are not dumb for it, nor are they better 'because they moved on'. They just enjoy a different game/new version. The same will be applicable to the new edition of WH40K. It will be new, if will be different. Some will like it, some don't already.

Anybody else notice how the GW webstore has a separate section in the WH40K area labeled as "Dawn Of War III" ? Of course, it shows all manner of models likely available in DOW III, but I just noticed that.

Though it seems slightly off-topic, I noticed somewhere in this thread that the 'dumb kiddies rules' (own interpretation) were removed in AoS. I also noticed that the warscrolls PDF's on the GW webstore were not updated, so using those one still has to pretend to be riding a horse, and even speak to it to gain several bonuses for Marius, or to compare beards and such to strengthen Dwarves. Fortunately, and more on topic, I haven't noticed anything about that in the new WH40K and the soon to be available rules for all current models. Of course, this might still be the case, as there is too little information to ascertain 'silly rules'. Also, I could half-heartedly assume such 'silly rules' to slip into the warscrolls/dataslates for the Orks army, given their more hillarious and less-than-serious treatement in previous installments of the game. We'll just wait and see, and hope their still being there in AoS isn't an indication they will be there in the new WH40K.

Cheers, and happy gaming.

new info tomorrow, hyped

 insaniak wrote:

 joseph_curwen wrote:
... one of the biggest criticisms of 'AoS,' in the beginning was THEY'RE MAKING AOS JUST LIKE 40K.

That was never one of the biggest criticisms of AoS.

Yes, it was - well, let's slightly rephrase it: the actual complaint was, "they're making WHFB just like 40k." (This criticism was leveled by WHFB players, while complaints about the lack of points and the "prance around like you're mad" type rules came from 40k players as well and thus were all the louder on Dakka Dakka.) In truth, GW totally threw out WHFB in favor of a version of 40k that had been evolving since the end of 5E - that's what AoS is ... and 8E seems like it will be the natural continuation of that same line of development, with the lessons of AoS all baked in.

 Galas wrote:
I don't know if anyone has noticed but in:

https://warhammer40000.com/new-to-40k/collect/

Under the "Collecting to play", we can see

There are datasheets available for every miniature that Games Workshop releases, which will give you an idea of how each unit works on the battlefield.

So, "Warscrolls" confirmed to Warhammer40k.

I mean, Datasheets is what they call the current format for individual unit rules anyway, so it really doesn't indicate anything.

That said if they are going the AoS route then I wouldn't be surprised if units got free rules online sans points.

They could still be keeping the codex system long term but in the short term release rules, a la Ravening Hordes back in, ummm, was it 6th edition WHFB? They released free rules for everything but then slowly replaced them with regular Codices/Army books.

I'm kind of 50/50 on whether I want free rules, GHB or codices. I prefer codices, but with GW's poor rules writing the Codex system means if you get a crappy codex you're stuck with it for agggges, and if you get multiple bad codices one after another it makes you hate the world.

I like the Battletome/GHB regime - you can get a cool hardcover army book with cool scenarios, fluff, and art while the cheap GHB is accessible and makes for more agile rules development.

"Agile rules development" is not something I really find appealing except in the situation where the first stab at the rules is terrible (or in 40k's case, the first 7 stabs at the rules).

Expensive scenario books like AoS has don't appeal to me at all.

It's going to be free rules, with free unit datasheets. The Codex will be full of well written fluff and new artwork, with some cool battalions and formations. Welcome to AoS, it's awesome.

And those that want to take their ball home in tears because 40k is using ideas from AoS, fantastic, enjoy community supported 7th and bitter moaning.

Yeah considering how bad AoS was for me, and how it killed the game I WANTED to play. I dunno. Feels like going in for a tonsillectomy that's going to be performed rectally. And that's the nicest and cleanest way I can describe my dread.

Pariah-Miniatures wrote:
You'd have to be a complete moron to go out and buy anything for any faction until they release the new edition and army rules.
Gw should be taking a sizable hit until then, hope they thought about that since they openly said all books will be invalidated with the new system. In other words, stupid people come buy stuff and assemble things that may not be great lol

Darn, I guess my Eldar project will be postponed. Good by, cheesy tournament list.


I am extremely happy they didn't change 30k, I just ordered Inferno. Also bigger marines/CSM will be awesome, as Im currently trying to GS legs to make the CSM taller. Their nearly a head shorter than BoP legs, and nearly TWO heads shorter than the new Rubricae (the best marines GW makes).

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
The same will be applicable to the new edition of WH40K. It will be new, if will be different. Some will like it, some don't already.

Look at the "stat line" in AoS. Dollars to dougnuts say the 40k unit stat line gets changed to something nearly identical to that.

This is exactly what 40k needs. The current mess is basically unplayable, with obvious horrible balance, a million codexes to keep up with, lots of stupid rules that just makes the game take even more time than before +++

New marines look great, wonder if I should sell all my old marines now?

 Illumini wrote:
New marines look great, wonder if I should sell all my old marines now?

I'd wait to see them side by side before making any decisions. If the scale isn't "that" different then selling and rebuying may be an expensive waste of effort. Also, it'll take a decade or more for the entire range to be properly updated, if that is even the intent.

I'm really looking forward to this! I was pretty salty at first when the Old world got nuked, but I gave AOS a try and it's pretty bloody fun TBH!

I'm hoping for something similar to that as it would get me back into 40k I reckon.

I've had my Wolves since the mid-90's I'm used to the changes because I've had to change my load-outs for every single edition anyway!

 Illumini wrote:
This is exactly what 40k needs. The current mess is basically unplayable, with obvious horrible balance, a million codexes to keep up with, lots of stupid rules that just makes the game take even more time than before +++

New marines look great, wonder if I should sell all my old marines now?

Only if you are absolutely sure that the new Marines are a full army in their own right and not part of a re-organised Space Marine army.

Then again, could be a good idea to get the best prices now before there is a glut in the second hand market for Marines.

Well, I'm glad the core rules are going to be free, I'm tired of buying new editions and codexes.

Really hoping Tyranids get a good shake out of 8th, I really hate what the last codex did to them.

I've not been a customer of GW's for six years and they're finally getting me back. It was pretty much a direct result of their actual communication with their customers. Their sharing of ideas from Age of Sigmar that are likely to appear in the new 40k got me taking a closer look at Age of Sigmar and GW's current approach to their customers and their games. The end result is that I liked what I saw and will finally be a GW customer again.

From their site:

Active war zones: Ultramar, Damocles Baal, Armageddon, Fenris, Cadia

Do you think these will become the analogues to the realms in Age of Sigmar? That the rules will say things like

"First you should decide in which of the six active warzones the battle will take place. For example, you might decide that your battle will take place on Cadia. Sometimes you’ll need to know this in order to use certain abilities. If you can’t agree on the warzone, roll a dice, and whoever rolls highest decides."

That's copied text out of the Age of Sigmar rules with a simple replacement of realms with warzones and realm of fire with Cadia. Think we'll see that much of an analogue?

Imperium, Chaos, Xenos - grand alliances?

(Yawn)
40k's been boring for me as a rule set for a while. I really hope they deliver on their promise for interesting new mechanics (movement value and reworked combat initiative won't do it though sorry...).

The Nu-cast marine-ternals equivalent () are what they are - a new SM model range for new players to get on the 40k boat (I guess really old ones could get the refreshment too). I doubt that most of the current players with a SM force will go even for the long process of replacement much less for a sudden whole sale replacement.

Coming to think about it, it may be possible that only several kits are released, you know in the manner of recent AoS releases where and army consists of 3 new kits with weapon options... in which case everyone wins as they'd be easy to integrate in existing armies.

The whole new GW business is dust in the eyes - don't expect matters to change for they cannot change fundamentally. You'll still be buying premium citadel figures at premium prices prices are still and will go up mind you), certain units will be undercosted and will dominate tournaments and thus the more casual net listers, once per year you'll be shedding 20 quid for the general's handbook and if you were buying your own codices you still will (5 quid cheaper perhaps). What has changed apparently is that a select few gamers in England will be easing up the design studio's work and will be moulding the rules through their communities and facebook's requests (all warped through their personal prisms ofcourse). I'm not saying it is bad or something - an expanded team of QAs and assistant designers is a good thing IMO. Advertisements have gone from release day site banners to early sneak peak video previews and painting videos. The company, its goals and for the most part price politics remain the same only this time the new edition's advertisement campaign is much, better.

What else can I say? New edition of the same old game, heroic music and trailers, all gamers are holding their breath, the old company you all loved is returning triumphant - GW's PR team has gotten us all by the balls

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
They could still be keeping the codex system long term but in the short term release rules, a la Ravening Hordes back in, ummm, was it 6th edition WHFB? They released free rules for everything but then slowly replaced them with regular Codices/Army books.

I'm kind of 50/50 on whether I want free rules, GHB or codices. I prefer codices, but with GW's poor rules writing the Codex system means if you get a crappy codex you're stuck with it for agggges, and if you get multiple bad codices one after another it makes you hate the world.

Well, AoS has all three.

For those who just want to play, the Warscrolls are free - and it seems a decent bet 40k will do the same.

For those who want a bit of background with their battle, you've got the Battle Tomes - which contain all the rules for that army.

And the Battle Tomes are still being developed as they go. The earliest ones have been replaced - Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound, with more comprehensive volumes.

And the Warscrolls are easily updated for purposes of balance. But I guess for many GHB2 is going to be the real test, because it's promising to tweak the balance where needed, including points adjustment.

For me, it's worked out pretty well for AoS, but of course other opinions are available (just be aware there's those weighing in who've never actually played AoS. They're pretty evident to someone that has played it). So in theory, the days of 'look it's been six years. Please just update my Nids' are gone - and importantly it's all so far been based on player feedback.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
"Agile rules development" is not something I really find appealing except in the situation where the first stab at the rules is terrible (or in 40k's case, the first 7 stabs at the rules).

Expensive scenario books like AoS has don't appeal to me at all.

40k already has expensive scenario books, the difference is that in 40k they contain vital info that you need to play a certain army, while in AoS they only have narrative scenarios and battalions which means you won't buy them if you only play Matched Play.

 joseph_curwen wrote:

(*To be clear, I do still hate the changes to the setting that they made but they've already stated that '40k' won't be going through a similar upheaval so I'm left being relatively optimistic.)

Will it not? I'm unconvinced. I think the lesson GW took from the End Times/AoS launch debacle was "boil the frog slowly and it won't notice until it's too late", not "don't boil the frog at all they don't like it" - GW will want to take 40K in a similar direction fluffwise as they have AoS, because it enables them to have a much more convenient(for them) release model: release small, self-contained new minifactions and let them sink or swim without affecting anything. They'll do it over a longer period than End Times, and they won't literally blow up reality itself at the end, but the result will be the same - a lighter, less grim, more fluid ongoing soap opera narrative with the focus on an ever-changing core cast of Big Damn Heroes(all of which will be available to buy as HUEG plastic kids, natch). The Eldar changes are just the beginning I think, they'll be going through each wider faction and making changes to remove the sense of impending doom that permeated 40K as a setting until all the factions are simultaneously resurgent in their own ways and a new status quo is established that they can change at-will without having to care about thirty years of material foreshadowing an apocalypse.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I've not been a customer of GW's for six years and they're finally getting me back. It was pretty much a direct result of their actual communication with their customers. Their sharing of ideas from Age of Sigmar that are likely to appear in the new 40k got me taking a closer look at Age of Sigmar and GW's current approach to their customers and their games. The end result is that I liked what I saw and will finally be a GW customer again.

From their site:

Active war zones: Ultramar, Damocles Baal, Armageddon, Fenris, Cadia

Do you think these will become the analogues to the realms in Age of Sigmar? That the rules will say things like

"First you should decide in which of the six active warzones the battle will take place. For example, you might decide that your battle will take place on Cadia. Sometimes you’ll need to know this in order to use certain abilities. If you can’t agree on the warzone, roll a dice, and whoever rolls highest decides."

That's copied text out of the Age of Sigmar rules with a simple replacement of realms with warzones and realm of fire with Cadia. Think we'll see that much of an analogue?

Imperium, Chaos, Xenos - grand alliances?

Doubt it, those are just the Warzones from the pre-existing campaign supplements

 Mymearan wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
"Agile rules development" is not something I really find appealing except in the situation where the first stab at the rules is terrible (or in 40k's case, the first 7 stabs at the rules).

Expensive scenario books like AoS has don't appeal to me at all.

40k already has expensive scenario books, the difference is that in 40k they contain vital info that you need to play a certain army, while in AoS they only have narrative scenarios and battalions which means you won't buy them if you only play Matched Play.

as matched play is the only reason to look at AoS at all, the Battledomes are vital the same way as the campaign books

and for 8th, the Handbook and Nu-Codices will be also vital

Um really guys/gals. You really believe that GW is just gonna hand over all the rules and rules/points systems to ALL the 40 armies in production for free on a website?? You either have wishful thinking or drinking the koolaid GW wants you drink. First off YES look at AOS Age of Sigmar. GW learned real fast that it needed a point system for a game the was falling faster the then Hindenberg . Then suddenly army books started rolling out. So the first things released will be basic rules to introduce 40K . Then more rules PER ARMY. Then if you want to play with "YOUR" whole army you'll have to buy the NEW AND IMPROVED codex as they are released ONCE AGAIN!!!

GW just isn't going to "GIVE" you army list and points for every model they produced. All the time and money to pay the people working on the game system alone needs to be paid. And all the stock holders want their money too. And eventually they will release ALL the "RULES" to the game. And don't be surprised that will be a 50.00 book. ONLY the introductory rules will be free.

Bottom line GW is always and will always be about making money and finding ways of getting it out of your hands. No matter how they do it. And I promise you there will be an FAQ with in 6 months of the release of the majority of the game.

All I can say to you people praiseing this new release is either your too new, too blind to whats going on, or you work for them(GW) and just trying to pump this new 8th edition for all its work.

I have played 40k since rogue trader. I weathered rules changes after rules changes for years. I played GW Epic Space Marines, I owned most everything for the game. GW changed the rules and the game died. I played ManOwar. GW just quit supporting it all together.I also played many many other GW games over the years that just died off. Then I got into WH Fantasy. All the while still playing and enduring GWs constant rules changes for 40k.After AOS release I dropped WHF completely. And I do mean EVERYTHING. And now I'm about to have several hundreds of dollars worth of useless rules and codex books sitting in my library. Some books were just bought as recently as this year. I knew GW was gonna release 8th edition, But I didn't think they would go to this extreme with what they learned from the ABORTION called AOS. But, it looks like GW may finally cut their own throats. Remember all current tournys through out the USA are based on current point systems and most people have built their armies using those tourney rules. Think how many people ran out and bought new vehicles for their armies due to the formations in the codexs. Are these gone too???
If this is the case are the tourney managers gonna jump up and totally change their rules, or are they just gonna stick to 7th edition until GW works out all the bugs that will definitely come with a brand new rules system. And the spring/ summer time is when most tournies will be run. AND we all know how "PLAY TESTED" 40k rules are. FAQs are gonna be out within 6 months. Also Are the new rules gonna cover EVERY army currently released; I mean since our current codexs will now be useless according to GW. Do you all realize how generic this game will be. And then suddenly in a few months GW will start releasing codexs for 50.00 a pop once again. Just like they did for AOS. People of the world of 40K I feel GW is either gonna look like the Greatest show on earth. Or they may have just blown a big hole in the only part of the ship that hasent filled with water yet. GWs excuse was to make the game more affordable. Maybe they should have looked at the price of their minis first. And stuck with paper back codexs.
TO this day i'll never understand this company. Back in the day TSR and FASA were some of the big boys on the block. Look where they are now. Maybe GW is about to go the way of the dinosaur. Or become the goose that laid another golden egg. Only time will tell. But this maybe where I get off the ever turning merry go round called 40k. Good day.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Will it not? I'm unconvinced. I think the lesson GW took from the End Times/AoS launch debacle was "boil the frog slowly and it won't notice until it's too late", not "don't boil the frog at all they don't like it" - GW will want to take 40K in a similar direction fluffwise as they have AoS, because it enables them to have a much more convenient(for them) release model: release small, self-contained new minifactions and let them sink or swim without affecting anything. They'll do it over a longer period than End Times, and they won't literally blow up reality itself at the end, but the result will be the same - a lighter, less grim, more fluid ongoing soap opera narrative with the focus on an ever-changing core cast of Big Damn Heroes(all of which will be available to buy as HUEG plastic kids, natch). The Eldar changes are just the beginning I think, they'll be going through each wider faction and making changes to remove the sense of impending doom that permeated 40K as a setting until all the factions are simultaneously resurgent in their own ways and a new status quo is established that they can change at-will without having to care about thirty years of material foreshadowing an apocalypse.

Agreed - very much my own speculation on how things will go on. It will probably drag on for years (meanwhile the PR team will be working its weight in gold) and when it's done the consumer base will be completely new and in compliance with the new tone. For me - sad, but natural

 CoreCommander wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Will it not? I'm unconvinced. I think the lesson GW took from the End Times/AoS launch debacle was "boil the frog slowly and it won't notice until it's too late", not "don't boil the frog at all they don't like it" - GW will want to take 40K in a similar direction fluffwise as they have AoS, because it enables them to have a much more convenient(for them) release model: release small, self-contained new minifactions and let them sink or swim without affecting anything. They'll do it over a longer period than End Times, and they won't literally blow up reality itself at the end, but the result will be the same - a lighter, less grim, more fluid ongoing soap opera narrative with the focus on an ever-changing core cast of Big Damn Heroes(all of which will be available to buy as HUEG plastic kids, natch). The Eldar changes are just the beginning I think, they'll be going through each wider faction and making changes to remove the sense of impending doom that permeated 40K as a setting until all the factions are simultaneously resurgent in their own ways and a new status quo is established that they can change at-will without having to care about thirty years of material foreshadowing an apocalypse.

Agreed - very much my own speculation on how things will go on. It will probably drag on for years (meanwhile the PR team will be working its weight in gold) and when it's done the consumer base will be completely new and in compliance with the new tone. For me - sad, but natural

I don't think it's natural at all, just inevitable. Frankly as long as they just left 40K(the setting) as-is rather than End Times'ing it I'd rather they just commit fully to the AoS-style and make an entirely different setting that meets their new needs as a company. I do quite enjoy seeing people praise GW as couragous or forward thinking for this move when the reality is it's based pretty firmly in risk-aversion and a desire to wheedle as many sales as possible out of fans of the status quo before they walk away.