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Azuza001 wrote:
Is it though? Weaver increases an invulnerable by one or gives a 5+, so if your getting hit by sometime with high str and high damage like laz cannons or missile launchers weaver can make a bigger difference than agonies. Agonies is better when dealing with low damage, high number of wounds like bolter fire or assault cannons.

Not saying agonies won't get used more, but I think using weaver on high toughness units like predators or hellbrutes could be more useful.

Having said that I am afraid that all the Tsons legion trait will be is something invulnerable related and with the number of mortal wounds out there making those a non issue our tsons won't be as tough as nurgle like they should be.

Compared to slannesh dishing out a 5+ wound negation that stacks on top of whatever save you've got, for the same difficulty, it's pathetic.

The slannesh bonus is strictly superior in nearly every case.
The only way the tzeentch one is better is if you have a 4+ save rerolling 1s, or better, and if you actually use your armor than it's useless.

Its a poor spell.

Widied wrote:
Thanks Nintura! Do you think it's more beneficial now to go with two units of five instead of a blob of ten? The soulreaper doesn't seem worth it on termies because their storm bolters nearly put out the same volume with one str lower. But on these guys trudging forward, could be more ideal.

Personally, I found it worthy to take a reaper on the Scarabs as well.
Yes, it costs an extra bolter, but that S5 is instrumental at giving a minimal shot against T8 stuff where we really struggle with our lack of high S attacks, and is rather big boon against the common T4 as well. The added AP dosent hurt either.
Every reaper matters. The rubric may "pay" less for it, but they don't guard it as well.




Subject 3
We have an upcoming "apocalypse lite" game coming around our local.
Basically a multi player game with a bigger table and some special mission rules.
We are going to play 1500 points, index only (and faq naturally), no codcies allowed, as most armies don't have one yet.
What do you think of this list?

Vanguard detachment
Disk Ahriman
Rubrics, axe/bolt sorcerer, 8 bolters, soulreaper
Rubrics, axe/bolt sorcerer, 8 bolters, soulreaper
Scarabs, staff/bolter sorcerer, 3 regulars, 1 with missiles and soulreaper
Scarabs, staff/bolter sorcerer, 3 regulars, 1 with missiles and soulreaper
Helbrute, scourge and twin heavy bolter
Helbrute, scourge and twin heavy bolter
Horrors, 6 blues 6 brimes (filler with leftover points really)

What are people's thoughts on flamers in rubric units? Is it better to use the soulreaper and bolters or some combo with flamers? They get super pricey this route. That's why I'm asking. I'm wondering where their sweet spot is price wise.

Widied wrote:
What are people's thoughts on flamers in rubric units? Is it better to use the soulreaper and bolters or some combo with flamers? They get super pricey this route. That's why I'm asking. I'm wondering where their sweet spot is price wise.

I usually have 2 in each squad. Even 5 mans. Really helps prevent charges plus the Sorcs flame pistol too. That -2 armor is just glorious.

As far as Weaver vs agonies I think agonies is definitely more general purpose useful, but I like Weaver on Magnus,rubrics,and SO termis. Magnus is obvious I think but bringing the invulnerable save against 1 damage weapons to 3+ on rubrics and SOT can be pretty nasty as well. Granted some armies don't have much for 1 damage attacks with good AP but it really frustrated khorne daemons and necrons

 nintura wrote:

Widied wrote:
What are people's thoughts on flamers in rubric units? Is it better to use the soulreaper and bolters or some combo with flamers? They get super pricey this route. That's why I'm asking. I'm wondering where their sweet spot is price wise.

I usually have 2 in each squad. Even 5 mans. Really helps prevent charges plus the Sorcs flame pistol too. That -2 armor is just glorious.

That was the number I was thinking too. I never thought of including a flamer on the Sorc. I wouldn't have thought it would be worth it. Will have to give it a try. Thanks for all your input nintura.

Widied wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Widied wrote:
What are people's thoughts on flamers in rubric units? Is it better to use the soulreaper and bolters or some combo with flamers? They get super pricey this route. That's why I'm asking. I'm wondering where their sweet spot is price wise.

I usually have 2 in each squad. Even 5 mans. Really helps prevent charges plus the Sorcs flame pistol too. That -2 armor is just glorious.

That was the number I was thinking too. I never thought of including a flamer on the Sorc. I wouldn't have thought it would be worth it. Will have to give it a try. Thanks for all your input nintura.

It's just as good as a regular, but only 2" shorter range.

It's not just as good, the Warpflame Pistol is S3.

Had two games last night at 50 PL vs Nids and Wraithguard.

Sorc in Terminator armor with Prescience and Weaver of Fates
DP with talons and Warptime vs nids, Daemonic Str vs Eldar

20 man squad of Tzaangors
10 man squad of Scarab Occults. 2x Soul Reapers, 2x Missile

Game one was a slaughter on both sides. He had 2x Broodlord, 20x Genestealers, 40x Devilgaunts, 10x Gargoyles. Whatever my Termies aimed at, and whatever the Genestealers charged, just vaporized on contact. In the end, the Termies won out

Game two was vs Wraithguard with Spiritseer and Farseer. Had a huge squad of Axe/Shield Guard which the Tzaangors tied up the entire game (he would kill 3-4, I'd kill 1 Guard). Had a squad of 5 Flamer Guard and 5 Wraithgun Guard. We were playing the scenario where the board is split into 4 quarters and on round 3, an objective falls to the board in some sector. The terms had his Wraithguard tied up, the Tzaangors were still smacking the Axeguard. But I had my Sorc in Terminator armor still free so he made a bee-line towards the objective. DP killed the Farseer but died the following turn. He surrendered once he realized he couldn't fall back (I had him surrounded on both sides) and my sorc would beat him there.

I wanted to see how the Termie bomb would work as a whole and it did not let down. But make sure you put them where you want them because they are not going anywhere anytime soon without Warptime.

32 shots at S4 -2 AP hitting on 2s.
4 shots at S8 -2 AP hitting on 2s.
8 shots at S5 -3 AP hitting on 2s.

4++ saves keeping them alive alongside All is Dust.

Hey Nintura, Have you found one unit of 10 termies better than 2 units of 5? I'm thinking 2 units of 5 for the diversity of placement etc but curious to what your play experience proves.

Widied wrote:
Hey Nintura, Have you found one unit of 10 termies better than 2 units of 5? I'm thinking 2 units of 5 for the diversity of placement etc but curious to what your play experience proves.

I have. It's cheaper PL wise and the Sorc can cast two spells, which will benefit all 10 Terminators and not just 5 of them. But then I've only played 1 game with that list.

 nintura wrote:

Widied wrote:
Hey Nintura, Have you found one unit of 10 termies better than 2 units of 5? I'm thinking 2 units of 5 for the diversity of placement etc but curious to what your play experience proves.

I have. It's cheaper PL wise and the Sorc can cast two spells, which will benefit all 10 Terminators and not just 5 of them. But then I've only played 1 game with that list.

What am I missing that lets the sorc cast two spells? I don't see it in the index or in the index errata. Unless you're talking about an HQ sorc casting buffs on the unit? Am I blind?

Yes. A sorcerer in terminator armor. Not a scarab occult terminator aspiring sorcerer. My unit looks like this:

HQ: Sorcerer in Terminator armor to deepstrike

Elite: 1x Aspiring Scarab Occult Sorcerer with 9 Scarab Occult Sorcerers

But lets be realistic. They are in Terminator armor. 10,000 years old. How are they only Aspiring Sorcerers?

Hey friends, is anyone else having limited success with the Heldrake? I am running a list with one with a predator for anti tank and anti air, I gotta be honest, the Heldrake doesnt pull its weight. And the predator cant do it alone. I just dont think the 4 attacks is enough, especially at only -1

Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince with Wings and talons
20 Rubrics with cannon, 2 flamers in rhinos
5 SoT with flamer and missile
Pred
Drake
Helbrute w/ Las
3x10 Tzangors

Even with 6 las shots and the drake, I cant manage to put out much in the way of anti flyer (mainly the raven)

I just think the points on the drake could maybe be used for another Pred, what do you guys think?

btw, this is my toned down list, the other drops the drake and brute and some gors for Magnus

The only thing Heldrakes are good at is being a big, annoying target; you can tie something up with it on turn one and then hope it blows up when it dies. It can be pretty invaluable in some matchups but I think it's pretty useless in more.

I've recently been losing a lot of interest in my Thousand Sons. We lack choice in units to a really problematic degree, imo. I mean that partly in terms of gameplay, but more in terms of modelling. Add to that the fact that Forgefiends, Hellbrutes, Defilers and Helldrakes just don't look quite right to me as Sons - too raw, messy, furious. All together, it doesn't leave a whole lot of units on the table for me to choose from!

Is anyone here running another CSM detachment alongside their 1kSons? I was thinking of Black Legion (For the hilarious-looking Abaddon horror-show) or Alpha Legion (because they have the best tactics, and their armour miight complement 1kSons aesthetics.)

Beserkers, Possessed (with Changeling support?), Lords, actual Chaos Termis with flexible loadouts, traitor knights, kitbashed obliterators, etc., all seems really well suited to support the Sons. Plus you have all the buffs and auras that CSM provide, which is a lot of the fun of the game for me. What units do you think would most complement my main 1kSons force, both tactically and aesthetically? Thanks in advance to any dusties who respond.

I like my drake. He never does much damage, but man does he annoy. He's a huge distraction carnifex. He gets into combat first turn with whatever they have that poses a threat, like a Leman Russ Punisher or something, and at least forces them to fall back. Of course I find more and more armies are able to fall back and still shoot/assault nowadays, but those tend to be eldar armies, in which his baleflamer actually does a lot of work.

From what I can tell, you can't take a helldrake expecting it to fill a damage role. It's more there to distract and annoy while another heavy hitter ie: Magnus does some work. I don't see alot of people taking a gunline approach with 1k sons -- I assume because other armies just do it so much better. They attempt to counter the strategy, using things like the helldrake, and other fast or deepstriking in your face components to disrupt/distract and ultimately hopefully destroy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:
I've recently been losing a lot of interest in my Thousand Sons. We lack choice in units to a really problematic degree, imo. I mean that partly in terms of gameplay, but more in terms of modelling. Add to that the fact that Forgefiends, Hellbrutes, Defilers and Helldrakes just don't look quite right to me as Sons - too raw, messy, furious. All together, it doesn't leave a whole lot of units on the table for me to choose from!

Is anyone here running another CSM detachment alongside their 1kSons? I was thinking of Black Legion (For the hilarious-looking Abaddon horror-show) or Alpha Legion (because they have the best tactics, and their armour miight complement 1kSons aesthetics.)

Beserkers, Possessed (with Changeling support?), Lords, actual Chaos Termis with flexible loadouts, traitor knights, kitbashed obliterators, etc., all seems really well suited to support the Sons. Plus you have all the buffs and auras that CSM provide, which is a lot of the fun of the game for me. What units do you think would most complement my main 1kSons force, both tactically and aesthetically? Thanks in advance to any dusties who respond.

I see alot of people matching 1k sons to Tzeentch demons to good success. It of course is a very smite heavy list playing mostly demons and super cheap, super tough, horror units to bog up your opponent. But it's super effective in close range and would give a bit of diversity through the demon line.

So how has everyone been running Magnus? Are you finding him enough as a solo threat, or do you run any units to support/augment him?

grouchoben wrote:
Add to that the fact that Forgefiends, Hellbrutes, Defilers and Helldrakes just don't look quite right to me as Sons - too raw, messy, furious.

I've always thought that a Necrosphinx would make an amazing stand-in for a Maulerfiend. It wouldn't even take that much conversion, and the whole model just screams "Thousand Sons".

 TzeentchMensch wrote:
So how has everyone been running Magnus? Are you finding him enough as a solo threat, or do you run any units to support/augment him?

The main strategies I've seen are based around a primarily fast moving tzeentch army (maybe a sprinkling of Renegade Heretics aka Malefic Lords) that basically has Magnus, 1 or 2 helldrakes and Chaos Space Marine Demon Princes with it. Changeling/Brimstones/Blue Horrors/Chariots etc. They tend to be smite centric lists that push forward while Magnus goes off and does his thing. The helldrakes are there to tie stuff up and distract. He's generally supported by how fast the bulk of the army can be and how much ground it can cover. This generally buys you the space you need to be devastating with Magnus. Now with his 3++ re rolling 1's potential, he's quite survivable. Though he won't stay in range of the Changeling very long, he may end up with a -1 to hit him during different points.

I think it's super important to support Magnus. I think the best ways to do that at the moment are Helldrakes to be honest. They have a fantastic speed that will allow them to get in and muck your opponents plans while Magnus does some work. I'm going to be trying Scarab Occult Terminators as well to add even more threat up front.

I second the notion of fast Thousand Sons army builds. Sorcs on discs, Ahriman on Disc, DP with wings, Heldrake, Helbrute with Warp time, even a huge squad of Tzaangors can be fast when advancing. I use Rubrics to hold objectives, but let the rest of the army meet my opponents in turns 1, maybe 2 at the latest.

So the Death Guard FAQ confirms that having a Chaos Space Marines detachment unlocks the CSM stratagems for <Death Guard> and <Thousand Sons> units in other detachments. I know a lot of people were playing it like that already but I wasn't so sure, glad to see I was wrong. Means we can get VotLW Scarab Occults prior to the release of the codex, among other things (no daemonforge, unfortunately...).

 Arachnofiend wrote:
So the Death Guard FAQ confirms that having a Chaos Space Marines detachment unlocks the CSM stratagems for <Death Guard> and <Thousand Sons> units in other detachments. I know a lot of people were playing it like that already but I wasn't so sure, glad to see I was wrong. Means we can get VotLW Scarab Occults prior to the release of the codex, among other things (no daemonforge, unfortunately...).

Could you explain that a bit more? I'm still trying to get used to the mixing and such.

At the moment , there are no Thousand Sons stratagems.

The FAQ has confirmed, that if you unlock CSM stratagems by having a CSM detachment, those stratagems can be used on Thousand Sons units. Quite a few stratagems will work in this way.

The wierd bit is to remember that Thousand Sons and Death Guard are not 'Chaos Space Marines' for rules purposes.

 TzeentchMensch wrote:
So how has everyone been running Magnus? Are you finding him enough as a solo threat, or do you run any units to support/augment him?

Starting to see less Magnus in my meta thanks to Death Hex. There's quite a few chaos players here and they all run at least 1 sorcerer just for that power.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
At the moment , there are no Thousand Sons stratagems.

The FAQ has confirmed, that if you unlock CSM stratagems by having a CSM detachment, those stratagems can be used on Thousand Sons units. Quite a few stratagems will work in this way.

The wierd bit is to remember that Thousand Sons and Death Guard are not 'Chaos Space Marines' for rules purposes.

See, this is the part I dont fully understand. How stratagems work or how you unlock them. I've only played a pure Thousand Sons army in 8th, I've never mixed another detachment. So treat me like I'm a noob for this


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 D6Damager wrote:

 TzeentchMensch wrote:
So how has everyone been running Magnus? Are you finding him enough as a solo threat, or do you run any units to support/augment him?

Starting to see less Magnus in my meta thanks to Death Hex. There's quite a few chaos players here and they all run at least 1 sorcerer just for that power.

And they aren't using Magnus's +2 to counter it?

 nintura wrote:
See, this is the part I dont fully understand. How stratagems work or how you unlock them. I've only played a pure Thousand Sons army in 8th, I've never mixed another detachment. So treat me like I'm a noob for this

If you had the Chaos Codex, it's explained at the top of the Stratagems page. The short version is that if you take any Chaos Space Marines detachment, you qualify for all of the stratagems. The stratagems have no limit to whom they can target other than what's written on the stratagem itself. So you can still target Death Guard or Thousand Sons with them because they are not making use of the rule, they are simply its target.

Gotcha. Yeah, I went and read the faq which they explained pretty well. Thanks all.

Not sure about anyone else, but I've added a small patrol detachment of Alpha legion (30 cultists+an apostle with the black mace because why not) and access to stratagems with the Thousand Sons has made my game a million percent easier.

VOTLW on Scarabs is amazing, Daemon Shell is like a super-reliable double smite on Ahriman, Spell Familiar is great fun with Aspiring sorcs (cant get your Warptimer over to your scarabs? Just swap out the sorc's smite for Warptime!), and Great Sorceror is handy for when you just need an exalted sorc to unload and drop Smite+Infernal+Gift+Daemon Shell in a single combo.

Sure you don't get daemonforge...unless you stick your pred/helbrute that wasn't gaining anything from being "thousand Sons" in your other detachment to grab a legion trait and access to the stratagems...

the_scotsman wrote:
Daemon Shell is like a super-reliable double smite on Ahriman

You can't do this. Daemon shell only works with a set list of weapons. "Inferno" bolt weapons are not part of that list.

the_scotsman wrote:
Sure you don't get daemonforge...unless you stick your pred/helbrute that wasn't gaining anything from being "thousand Sons" in your other detachment to grab a legion trait and access to the stratagems...

Which is what I do with my Forgefiend, otherwise it's just a pricy paperweight. Hopefully we'll get Daemonforge in our upcoming codex.