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Seems like the ogryn dart took a big hit with the valk nerf =/

drakerocket wrote:
Seems like the ogryn dart took a big hit with the valk nerf =/

Did it? I'm not seeing it..

Captyn_Bob wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
Seems like the ogryn dart took a big hit with the valk nerf =/

Did it? I'm not seeing it..

No more moving after drop, making charges alot more difficult. (slaanesh covenant still keeps it in the game) but yeah

Lost, got beat down by the dropship and dreadnought

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Lost, got beat down by the dropship and dreadnought

Feels bad man.

I'm feeling a little more inclined to try and do an army of melee guys now, rabble plus Ogryn and spawn seems like it might be effective

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I'm feeling a little more inclined to try and do an army of melee guys now, rabble plus Ogryn and spawn seems like it might be effective

Some flags mate, also i had a Amusing match today.

So like i promised the match yesterday, i dubbed it the Blind against the spineless for reasons you will realise soon:

Lits (490 CSM vs 486 of my Mechanized R&H)

CSM (RC Battalion)
Lord, PP, ES
DA

2x5 CSM autocannon
1x10 CSM 2 PG


Me: Vanguard
Commander, ES Covenant Khorne +1 LD aura.
Commander PF

Elites:
2x 11 Disciples, Autocannon team and PG
2x5 Marauders with 2x Sniperrifle each.

Troops:
1 10 Militia HWT stubber

2x Chimera ML, HB.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

General gist, we have some small rules we use for such small games, mainly all infantry can hold objectives, there are 3 of them in a diagonal over the map, alot of terrain, secondary were kill the warlord, 1 unit of any kind in the enemy deployment zone.

First lession i learned that day:
Always buy Voxes, 2 times (once on militia squad holding my hombase objective and 1 disciple double 11) later i had squads beeing killed more by morale then by my enemy.

Secondly, when in doubt charge, ok this is special but basically the middle objective was near a crater, my opponent had his 10 man squad in that crater and the DA behind it for the sweet sweet -1 to hit prayer.
After disembarking, shooting with all i got and only killing 2 marines with the Disciple squad (including a frag grenade) and another 1 due to the chimera support i needed to get rid of the squad. turns out ws3+ and S4 make for quite an impressive charge and overall netted me more kills (due to no cover in melee,) then shooting, Renegade commanders are also good at that both off which killed 3 marines in 1 melee phase, instantly getting their points worth back.

Thirdly:
Chimeras are surprisingly decent in low pts games after the pricdrop.

Fourth:
Marauders snipers, after the first turn my enemy wanted them dead, going so far as using cacophny on a squad off 10 marines against my 5 man squad, which killed 4 out of 5, in it for the money kicked in and the dude remained on the field with his rifle, proceeding to further harass his DA. In fact in my first shooting phase my Sniperrifles took 3 W from the DA tow of which were mortals and 1 was a failed save throw.

Fifth, my enemy later on failed 2 times to get -1 to hit and afterwards had his DA stuck in meleewere he proceeded to fail to hit my other commander which failed to wound him even though he had a PF.

Sixth:CSM feel wierd durability wise it's ahuge jump inbetween them sitting in cover and them not beeing in cover, especcially when lasguns get involved.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I'm feeling a little more inclined to try and do an army of melee guys now, rabble plus Ogryn and spawn seems like it might be effective

Reability might be a problem but i feel like this could work:
2000 pts


HQ:
Rogue psyker coven, Unnatural vigour. 100 pts

Commander, Slaanesh or khorne, Energy axe 30 pts

Elites:
2x Enforcer 60 pts

2x 14 Command Squad, Banner that lets casualities fight again one more time. 148 pts

10 Ogryn brutes with drill 310 pts.

10 Marauders, Hereteks Champion Power axe 65 pts.

Troops:
3x 50 Mutants, (either lasguns or pistols, pistols have an advantage in melee, lasguns/ autoguns for overall situation) 600 pts.

Assault:
3x5 Chaos spawn 3x 165 pts.


Assault detachment:
Commander 2x Chainsword

2x 1 Scoutsentinel AC
1x 2 Scoutsentinel AC

Total 1993 pts.


Edit: Mainproblems.

Rather restricted anti Tank.
Depending on Covenant not enough Hmpf or speed to get to melee, altough unnatural vigour can help in that regard.
Maybee more then 1 Coven.

this is one of the rare cases where i think the Cultists can beat out the Mutants due to the cultists beeing big enough to profit from buffs aswell as having the basic equipment choice to get more attacks and a general better performance due to better stats..
One could argue therefore 4 Cultists squads with Autoguns and Brutal assult weapon might outperform 3 50 blobs of mutants, this however depends on the result on the mutation table.

This list has a lot of beasts, such as 15 Chaos spawn and 10 Brutes, that can be and feel threathenning and both of these units are somewhat on the thougher side to deal with.
Question remains though if we get the updated points and price point for Chaos spawn of the CSM dex.

Alternatively:
Go the elite route:

3x 10 Marauders with melee equipment or lasguns (probably lasguns due to beeing more usefull overall, since marauders don't get covenants )

3x Disciple squads

3 times Command disciple squads

3 times ogryn brutes:

Spread in two vanguard detachments.

This list has higher quality to it:
Fielding 45 disciples, 42 Command disciples another 30 marauders and a number off Ogryns.
You will get less use out of Covens though.

Main problem is you have to paint 216 pairs of feet/claws/tentacles...

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Main problem is you have to paint 216 pairs of feet/claws/tentacles...

Isn't that a general of all non Mechanized (and even there ) R&H armies?

Most off our stuff is highly infantry centric, not to mention monster centric.

Old R&H armies were even bigger footslogs, i mean you could field 100 bodies in 900 pts. infact you could field 100 bs 4+ bodies for 950 pts.



The elite army melee variation though might would be easier to manage:

3x 15 Disciples alone cost 270 pts.

3x14 command disciples would with banner cost another 282 pts.

3x 10 Marauders would also be another 180 pts

3x 12 Brutes would be 1080 pts.

that sounds a lot more manageable.

Also 1812 pts.

I am currently planning to build this list, I have some infantry and most of the tanks WIP:

++Brigade++
[HQ] Commander, warlord, Khorne covenant, power fist 33p
[HQ] Commander, power fist 33p
[HQ] Malefic Lord 80p

[EL] Command squad, lascannon, voxnet 54p
[EL] Command squad, lascannon, voxnet 54p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p

[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p

[FA] 3 chaos spawn 75p
[FA] 3 chaos spawn 75p
[FA] 2 chaos spawn 50p

[HS] Basilisk, HB, stubber 110p
[HS] 2 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 340p
[HS] 2 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 340p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p

++Fortifications Network++
[FT] Noctilith Crown 100p

 ph34r wrote:
I am currently planning to build this list, I have some infantry and most of the tanks WIP:

++Brigade++
[HQ] Commander, warlord, Khorne covenant, power fist 33p
[HQ] Commander, power fist 33p
[HQ] Malefic Lord 80p

[EL] Command squad, lascannon, voxnet 54p
[EL] Command squad, lascannon, voxnet 54p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p

[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p

[FA] 3 chaos spawn 75p
[FA] 3 chaos spawn 75p
[FA] 2 chaos spawn 50p

[HS] Basilisk, HB, stubber 110p
[HS] 2 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 340p
[HS] 2 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 340p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p

++Fortifications Network++
[FT] Noctilith Crown 100p

Seems decent, it's 2000 pts right?
2 things though. Why pay for command voxes when you don't use normal voxes for this list.
Secondly this is a gunline it seems, covenant of Khorne though is an proactive covenant, i would suggest tzeentch.

I like the chaos spawn as Mini distraction fexes. Altough shouldn't they cost 33 pts? Then again if we go by the most up to date sheet then you are right with 25 / spawn.

I am unsure on the Noctilith but the 5++ is great for a gunline and it's anti psy can save your Bacon.

The malefic Lord should probably get warp Flux since it is in essence an anti vehicle and charachter smite.

2000p, yes.
I picked Khorne because honestly the other ones all seem pretty lackluster. Not many of my units are going to have effective overwatch, but I think Tzeentch is worth testing for sure.

I think that's an oversight on my part on the command voxes, I'll have to re-read them.

Spawns are 25 points, I believe, due to the most up to date points cost.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't that a general of all non Mechanized (and even there ) R&H armies?

Most off our stuff is highly infantry centric, not to mention monster centric.

My planned 2k list has 120 pairs of boots, seven Tanks and no monsters...

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't that a general of all non Mechanized (and even there ) R&H armies?

Most off our stuff is highly infantry centric, not to mention monster centric.

My planned 2k list has 120 pairs of boots, seven Tanks and no monsters...

120 dudes still heavier on infantry than many other armies.
Also spawns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:
2000p, yes.
I picked Khorne because honestly the other ones all seem pretty lackluster. Not many of my units are going to have effective overwatch, but I think Tzeentch is worth testing for sure.

I think that's an oversight on my part on the command voxes, I'll have to re-read them.

Spawns are 25 points, I believe, due to the most up to date points cost.

Command voxes require that the squad that wants to borrow morale, needs to also have a vox.

I would like to spitball something:

Basically a shenanigans list:

two times the FA detachments:

Commander 25 pts:

3x3 Scout sentinels ML 315pts

3x3 Armored Sentinels ML 315 pts.

__________
Commander 25 pts:

3x5 Chaos Spawn:375pts

3x3 Salamander Scout tanks (AC, HB, HS)675 pts:

Total 1730 pts.

Lowest T value of targetable units is 5, more often then not 6 or 7.
18 models have a scout movement phase, to either hide or get into firing position.
The spawn would probably profit massively from the covenant of slaanesh.

It's sort of the opposite of a glass cannon though, isn't it? It's sorta tough, but it can't kill stuff fast enough.

Like, so you blow the crap out of my Leman Russ and my Basilisks, but you haven't got enough killing capacity to deal with my horde. Also, what do you do if you face a Knight of some sort?

Meanwhile, it's not exactly difficult to bring down Sentinels or Salamanders, so your output is significantly less and less each turn.

My main issue with such a list would be, what happens when the enemy has lots of vehicles? 18 missile launchers certainly isn't nothing, but they're all kinda fragile.

Do you have the models for such a list? I would definitely be interested to see how it goes. I have speculated on similar list types but always shy away from sentinels.

 ph34r wrote:
My main issue with such a list would be, what happens when the enemy has lots of vehicles? 18 missile launchers certainly isn't nothing, but they're all kinda fragile.

Do you have the models for such a list? I would definitely be interested to see how it goes. I have speculated on similar list types but always shy away from sentinels.

Actually i meant Multilasers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's sort of the opposite of a glass cannon though, isn't it? It's sorta tough, but it can't kill stuff fast enough.

Like, so you blow the crap out of my Leman Russ and my Basilisks, but you haven't got enough killing capacity to deal with my horde. Also, what do you do if you face a Knight of some sort?

Meanwhile, it's not exactly difficult to bring down Sentinels or Salamanders, so your output is significantly less and less each turn.

considering i still have 270 pts left though.

So technically i could field another 18 Mortars for 124 pts, so i would have 146 left which would be enough for another 30 militia and a command squad.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree though the Salamander scouts tanks would probably be better invested in something else.

Probably cut 2 tanks and get access to another 10 man militia squad and strengthen the command squads

Oh. 18 multilasers are going to do basically nothing. I would run some numbers on how many vehicles or infantry those multilasers would kill, I suspect it is disappointing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, slightly modified idea:

++Brigade++
[HQ] Commander, warlord, Khorne covenant, power fist 33p
[HQ] Malefic Lord 80p
[HQ] Malefic Lord 80p

[EL] Command squad, lascannon 44p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 54p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x melta, stalkers 58p

[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p

[FA] chaos spawn 25p
[FA] chaos spawn 25p
[FA] chaos spawn 25p

[HS] Basilisk, HB, stubber 110p
[HS] 3 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 510p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p

[LW] Macharius Vulcan, twin heavy stubbers, 3 more heavy stubbers 360p

[FT] Noctilith Crown 100p

2000p exactly, could be changed around a little bit. I realized I had an illegal 6 Heavy Support choices, so this way I go down to the 5 a Brigade allows, and gain a pretty cool superheavy, and a second psyker.

Point is though, why field 2 psykers, r&h powers aren't that great and spamming smite is a waste really, considering that a IG equivalent is still 40 pts with armor and equipment.

Also brigade is relatively questionable, i mean what are you going to do with that ammount of CP?
Considering also that troops are somewhat lackluster for us..

Would've made the marauder squads bigger then msu aswell as fielded 3 overall, also don't really see the point in the command squad, it isn't liked you allready have fielded enough disciples to switch to them.

All true points. That is useful feedback. I guess for the malefic lords, the goal is to increase the likelihood of a miscast so they can go punch people.

As for the command points, yeah. I guess you would basically just be rerolling one crucial damage roll per turn.... and I don’t know what else.

The disciples vs command squad thing is a fair point too.

 ph34r wrote:
All true points. That is useful feedback. I guess for the malefic lords, the goal is to increase the likelihood of a miscast so they can go punch people.

As for the command points, yeah. I guess you would basically just be rerolling one crucial damage roll per turn.... and I don’t know what else.

The disciples vs command squad thing is a fair point too.

well maybee you could throw out on the auto morale, but frankly who cares if 10 man squad is running away anyways.

As for malefics, banking on getting possesed, you have 2 results that happens, out off 36 possible results. 1/18, is a damn low chance. Especially when we consider that HE HAS ONLY ONE power to cast per turn.

I totally didn't realize he only cast one power. Yikes.

 ph34r wrote:
I totally didn't realize he only cast one power. Yikes.

i mean if he could cast two he would be a lot less grueling to field but as it's standing a regular CSM sorcerer costs a bit more, has a better profile, better psy can cast two times and has traits and warlord options aswell.

So, anything new, or are we still downtrodden and i can let my renegades rest in a vitrin and or paint them?

I am thinking of starting a R&H army with khorne blobs and some khorne daemons featuring Skarbrand. Does anyone have any experience with running such a list. Would I be better off doing this with cultists in the CSM codex, since they have better stratagems and buffing auras?

asobitaii wrote:
I am thinking of starting a R&H army with khorne blobs and some khorne daemons featuring Skarbrand. Does anyone have any experience with running such a list. Would I be better off doing this with cultists in the CSM codex, since they have better stratagems and buffing auras?

Depedns, first tough neither skarabrand is particulary good nor are the R&H it.

If you want something along the bloodpact you would be better off with R&H, if you just want a crazed daemon cult you'd be better of probably with CSM.

Altough you can make melee work for R&H it requires a somewhat specific setup.
Blobbing is done better by R&H in some cases.
Also cultists got massively nerfed again, (losing traits) atleast R&H ones have traits.


We probably would need a clearer picture for what you had in mind.

Not Online!!! wrote:
So, anything new, or are we still downtrodden and i can let my renegades rest in a vitrin and or paint them?

I'm feeling a bit downtrodden. The Valk nerf was a big hit to what was going to be my primary (albeit probably unwise) attack strategy. I had, Have, had, three Valkyries in the works. Now, even with the Slaanesh trait, the odds of getting the charge off are lousy.

That
Being
Said

I'm still working on my army. Hopefully I'll be able to have my first progress and process post in the next couple of weeks, once I finish a different project.

I've changed my plan a bit for my army -- still going with the Catachans who have fallen to Slaanesh [*cough* seen the light *cough*], but now have a little more armour in the works, and rather than Ogryn Dart , I'm now thinking of going ~1/4th of my point total in Slaaneshi Daemons.