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There are more to blood axes than kommandos. Especially if I are happy to use kromlechs awesome range.

Andykp wrote:
There are more to blood axes than kommandos. Especially if I are happy to use kromlechs awesome range.

Yes there is, but Kommandos are the first unit you think of when you say the word Blood Axe, and 3 max sized units of Kommandos right now tops out at 405pts and as it stands I would say that those Kommandos are about 2ppm over priced for what they do. If GW agrees and brings down the price to where it needs to be you are looking at 315pts for the Blood Axe pinnacle unit. Or another way to put it would be less then 16% of your blood axe army being Kommandos in a 2,000pt army.

I am still in mourning for my 90 Kommando Army :(

Well maybe what they can do instead of making the signature unit of a klan count as troops for that klan is simply allowing double the max, e.g. Deathskulls lootas are still heavy support but you can take 6 instead of 3.
I think deathkull trait will be either an inv save, a feel no pain save or some kind if reroll (they are the lucky ones... or at least they think they are and so they become it)

Pls gork let us have a good codex for once

SemperMortis wrote:

Andykp wrote:
There are more to blood axes than kommandos. Especially if I are happy to use kromlechs awesome range.

Yes there is, but Kommandos are the first unit you think of when you say the word Blood Axe, and 3 max sized units of Kommandos right now tops out at 405pts and as it stands I would say that those Kommandos are about 2ppm over priced for what they do. If GW agrees and brings down the price to where it needs to be you are looking at 315pts for the Blood Axe pinnacle unit. Or another way to put it would be less then 16% of your blood axe army being Kommandos in a 2,000pt army.

I am still in mourning for my 90 Kommando Army :(

Kommandoz might instantly become useful again if they get a stratagem, relic or rule that allows them to make charges more reliably. Snikrot might also give a relevant buff to them. Don't start burying units before we have seen the codex

An interesting change would be to give them the nurgling or scout infiltrate, allowing you to set them up before turn 1.

Andykp wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You clearly haven't read that book.

U make a lot of presumptions mate, I’ve read that book plenty. Used to own it but its the story of one warband. The others are bibles of ORK greatness and all you ever need to know about Greenskins warfare and kulture. If you don’t have them I suggest you get them or pdfs at least. That was when rule book were great. Had mine for nearly 30 years and they haven’t been bettered.

Even though it’s only about one warband, the IA8 lore gives a pretty good accounting of both Sunz and Deff Skulls. For those who aren’t able to acquire the old books, IA8 will provide enough lore on those clans in particular as well as the specific warband in the story.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You clearly haven't read that book.

U make a lot of presumptions mate, I’ve read that book plenty. Used to own it but its the story of one warband. The others are bibles of ORK greatness and all you ever need to know about Greenskins warfare and kulture. If you don’t have them I suggest you get them or pdfs at least. That was when rule book were great. Had mine for nearly 30 years and they haven’t been bettered.

Even though it’s only about one warband, the IA8 lore gives a pretty good accounting of both Sunz and Deff Skulls. For those who aren’t able to acquire the old books, IA8 will provide enough lore on those clans in particular as well as the specific warband in the story.

I’m not saying IA8;isn’t a good book, it’s lovely and evil suns are my fave clan by far, but the fluff and style of the ORKS in the old books are what drew me into 40k in the first place. They have so much flavour and the rules were great. All character. So much more than I have nowadays, the clans have become very one dimensional, as semoermortis demonstrates. All kommandos = blood axes and the fact people refer to speed freaks as a clan nowadays too. Crazy. The new style of armies in 8th where each clan will have dif traits will cause me no end of problems as my army is still very much styled in the rogue trader ways. A warlord and lots of households of different clans.

Like I said, even if you can just download pdfs of the old books they will spread pure joy to any orkophile out there.

I hope we can take the 'Ard Boyz option back again, even if its as a Before the Battle type stratagem upgrade.

I have 2 dozen trukk Boyz fully decked in Plates and Iron Gobz, in matching looted Rhinos, to emulate the Space Marines they love fighting. So far, they're the only painted Orkz i've gotten done.

I’d like to see them back too. Even as an elites choice. I too have a very armoured iron gobbed up squad that are being used as simple boys nowadays. Very sad. A stratagem would work nicely.

I'm really betting that 'ard boyz will be a new kit, and in fact an entirely new model with new stats. 'Ard boyz aren't just orks with armor, they're more elite orks who excel in close combat. What the ork codex needs is the option to take smaller, elite squads that can still have good damage output.

Actually, 'ard boyz are just orks with armor, they are just displayed differently in most WH40k video games.
Nobz are the small elite units.

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, 'ard boyz are just orks with armor, they are just displayed differently in most WH40k video games.
Nobz are the small elite units.

I say why not take a page from the 40k Space Marine games, though? The 'ardboyz had a sort of beserker thing going on, as opposed to nobz which were walking tanks. I think this would be a fantastic way to go. A cheaper melee only unit focused on beserking while nobz become our tough as nails infantry unit, with meganobz being even more so. One thing that is very often hounded on in the lore is that orks are durable buggers, yet all our units, are paper-thin.

I'd just like to point out that the game is about a single space marine captain murdering an entire Waaagh!, including its warboss. Maybe you shouldn't wish for that

It’s game wide power creep that a T4 model isn’t considered tough. Now 2+ saves are everywhere and so are strength 4 or 5 weapons.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
Well maybe what they can do instead of making the signature unit of a klan count as troops for that klan is simply allowing double the max, e.g. Deathskulls lootas are still heavy support but you can take 6 instead of 3.
I think deathkull trait will be either an inv save, a feel no pain save or some kind if reroll (they are the lucky ones... or at least they think they are and so they become it)

Pls gork let us have a good codex for once

Seeing the max 3 rule was in april FAQ at by time ork codex would be finalized rule wise...Don't expect special rules dealing with that change.

Andykp wrote:
It’s game wide power creep that a T4 model isn’t considered tough. Now 2+ saves are everywhere and so are strength 4 or 5 weapons.

None of the common S4 and S5 weapons are new. We're talking about hurricane bolters, heavy bolters and heavy flamers here. They have been around for a long time. The only difference is that those weapons are no longer outperformed by autocannons and scatter-lasers, so they actually see play.

There are next to no 2+ saves in actual games. The only time you see 2+ saves is on the few viable terminator variants or on HQs in terminator armor or with relics. Most of those things have already existed in 4th edition unless you want to get angry about captains in gravis armor.

Don't you get tired of all this "get off my lawn" stuff?

 Jidmah wrote:

Andykp wrote:
It’s game wide power creep that a T4 model isn’t considered tough. Now 2+ saves are everywhere and so are strength 4 or 5 weapons.

None of the common S4 and S5 weapons are new. We're talking about hurricane bolters, heavy bolters and heavy flamers here. They have been around for a long time. The only difference is that those weapons are no longer outperformed by autocannons and scatter-lasers, so they actually see play.

There are next to no 2+ saves in actual games. The only time you see 2+ saves is on the few viable terminator variants or on HQs in terminator armor or with relics. Most of those things have already existed in 4th edition unless you want to get angry about captains in gravis armor.

Don't you get tired of all this "get off my lawn" stuff?

It's also funny since T4 got a relative boost this edition compared to previous ones, as short of S8+ you normally can't wound above a 3+. This is in contrast to the S6-7 spam from previous editions which allowed them to wound on 2's from the old to-wound chart. The most I've seen "2+ saves" is from MEQ in cover, which is often irrelevant for Orks since we do most of our damage in CC anyways.

Just thought of a couple of possible unique rules for the Orkanauts.

Cunning of Mork (or Gork): if this unit did not move in the previous movement phase it may re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase

Brutality of Gork (or Mork): if this unit charged or was charged in the previouse charge phase it may re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the fight phase.

I know they definately wouldn't "fix" them, but I think some potentially flavorful rules would be neat.

Re-rolling ones is better the higher your BS is. That's why it's so awesome for marines and eldar.

Re-rolling ones for BS5+ doesn't do anything, might as well save the ink to print the rule. If you want to buff ork shooting, do +1 to hit.

Ok, different idea for Cunning of Mork then: something so silly it'd have to be on an Ork unit.

Cunning of Mork (or Gork): if this unit did not move then enemy attacks that target it in the shootong phase have -1 to hit.

I know it's super silly and random but I think it could fit in with the Ork's theme. This big stompy robot that is as hard to hit as a T'au stealth suit just because all the Orks think it's being sneaky. And I don't think it's too strong either because though it has decent firepower in theory, like was said BS 5+ really hurts shooting.

 Jidmah wrote:

Andykp wrote:
It’s game wide power creep that a T4 model isn’t considered tough. Now 2+ saves are everywhere and so are strength 4 or 5 weapons.

None of the common S4 and S5 weapons are new. We're talking about hurricane bolters, heavy bolters and heavy flamers here. They have been around for a long time. The only difference is that those weapons are no longer outperformed by autocannons and scatter-lasers, so they actually see play.

There are next to no 2+ saves in actual games. The only time you see 2+ saves is on the few viable terminator variants or on HQs in terminator armor or with relics. Most of those things have already existed in 4th edition unless you want to get angry about captains in gravis armor.

Don't you get tired of all this "get off my lawn" stuff?

Don’t you get tired of all this I’m right and your wrong stuff. That was a reasonable comment. From first edition T4 was rare and represented a significantly tougher prospect that T3 which was the standard. Now so many basic models have above average stats, s4 and T4 are very common. 3+ hits can be in most troops of armies, eldar, marines, guard vets, necrons etc. Strength 4 weapons are much more common since the game was first made. In first edition terminators were the only 2+ save. Even power armour was 4+ originally. Hurricane bolters didn’t exist and heavy flamers were rare as rocking horse sh@t.

3 was the average stat of a trained individual. 4 represented elite level work and 5s were heroic. When 3rd edition swept in all that changed and 4s and 5s became more common with each edition. Now T4 isn’t seen as tough. If that’s not power creep what is? Sorry if your experience doesn’t back that far but accept that you may be wrong and do not know everything. I didn’t say T4 wasn’t weaker than it used to be but it’s a game wide problem. U have whole armies of 2+ saves (custodes) with invulnerable saves on top.

The thing I like about primaries marines is that they have made marines seem like they used to. The two wounds and better guns make them feel like a small tough army of elite troops. It’s a shame ORKS don’t feel tough anymore, maybe a better save might help, if you do much to make them tougher they would become too expensive to run in the big squads people like nowadays.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The new knight codex has made me think we could do with another walker, between an ORKAnaut and a stompa. In the mid twenties power level range. Maybe no troop transport just an ORK knight. I didn’t think I would ever think that but like the orkanauts and don’t see how they could be made stronger. Rules to make a transport better if it doesn’t move seems counter productive to me. It’s another case of moving ORKS to hitting on 4+s in shooting being a good option.

All those things have been true since 4th, almost no model has gotten different saves or toughness since then, most models released have gotten the same toughness as everything else in their army. Custodes really aren't anything but another army in the style of Death Wing or Grey Knights.
I found this list of all models released since 4th, see for yourself:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?297915-Games-Workshop-40K-Release-Timeline-(Mk-II)
Almost every T4 model is a space marine, ork, necron, medium sized nid or a T3 model mounted on something. Almost every 2+ armor model is clad in terminator armor. Very little has changed here. if there was any sort of power creep it should be visible over a time span of 10 years, shouldn't it?
I have no experience with the first three edition of the game, but those have been gone for over a decade. Unless you are complaining about the power creep between first and fourth edition of this game. In that case your "now" would be 2009.

Thing is, T4 is tougher in 8th than it was in 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th. S5 wounds the same as before, S6 and S7 got -1 to wound and S8+ and higher doesn't outright kill T4 models like nobz or meks any more. That's the whole reason why the green tide is doing so well, T4 is actually worth something again. There is no reason to believe that T4 has gotten weaker.

The reason why orks are no longer tough as they have been is the loss of cover, exhaust cloud, a weaker KFF and weaker pain boyz. In 4th and 5th edition a unit of biker nobs could have 4+ cover and armor, 5++cybork and 5+ FNP. Vehicles would have been protected by a KFF that provides 4+ cover saves, bikers had 4+ cover saves at all times. You could gain cover by having gretchin, kanz or other boyz in front you, the KFF provided cover to everything it touched and bubbled out from trukks or battlewagons.
Almost no weapons besides flamers would ignore cover, so basically the entire army could have 4++ saves against shooting if you wanted, with nob units adding a 5+ FNP to that though pain boyz. Warbosses and Nobz were a serious threat to almost anything since even the deadliest weapons could bounce of 5++ cybork.
All mobs above 10 were fearless, and boss poles allowed re-rolls on smaller mobs so you rarely lost anything from moral.

6th edition weakened cover to 5+ and no more cover from shooting through units, but in general it still mostly worked. Also, fearless wounds and no falling back from impossible combats took their toll on orks, but transport got less explody.
Finally in 7th GW decided that orks cannot have nice things, nerfed cybork into the ground and made it no longer stack with pain boyz, KFF was nerfed to only affect models in range and no longer extended from transports. Transports also became murderous death traps and mob rule randomly killed a bunch of boyz. It gave jink to some of our fast units, I guess that's something.

Cover has been taken away from orks entirely.
Exhaust cloud is gone
Docs only provide a 6+ FNP now
Cybork is a 6+ FNP save and no longer available to characters
KFF is now a 5++ save and requires all models to stay within 9" (instead of one model per unit within 6") and doesn't extend from vehicles
Jink is gone

So, while imperial guardsmen now get to take their 5+ armor saves against a lot of things they couldn't before, orks have lost most of their defensive abilities besides T4. Add that ranged firepower has gone up, while ork's ability to disable threats from a distance has gone down, you can tell why orks are less durable - and it has little to do with more S4/5 weaponry being made, and even less with 2+ saves.

So, yes, I never get tired of pointing out things that objectively simply aren't true.

My now is about 1996 mate. I’m still 18 and ORKS were still bs 3. I do mean the changes that started in the beginning of third edition. What I hear now is that this stat isn’t high enough or these models don’t have an invulnerable save. All these things used to be very rare when the game was born and the profiles that are still used today were created. As you said toughness comes from bonuses and special rules. It used to come from the toughness stat. Cover didn’t affect saves, just to hit. It meant the stats meant more then than they do today but they are still used. ORKS have been T4 for 30years. That’s hasn’t changed. They were tough. The game has grown around them and now T4 isn’t tough. That’s the creep I’m on about. Increase the toughness to 5, they wouldn’t get much better because of the rules and weapons described. Terminators are a great example of how it’s changed. They were beasts in 1st. T4 and the only 2+ save. One squad cost a quarter of your army. Now with out storm shields and an extra wound they suck apparently.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not going all rose tinted. I loved the first two editions of the game but they were far from perfect. 8th is the best version I’ve ever played. 3-7 were not. 2nd had them beat easy.

Ideally I would like to see ORKS revert to a pre third edition style. Decent shots and viable in smaller squads not great big hordes. It’s not going to happen though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So in this case you were right and wrong. Wrong in that you haven’t known the hobby long enough to get my points of reference. Right in that special rules etc have taken over from stats but that started before your time.

... which brings me back to my "get off my lawn" comment.

Why even bother posting on the internet in 1996?

But seriously, the changes you don't like happened over a decade ago. What's the point in complaining about them now?

And you do realize the idiocy of telling someone that ten years of experience aren't enough to talk about the game, right?

 Jidmah wrote:
... which brings me back to my "get off my lawn" comment.

Why even bother posting on the internet in 1996?

But seriously, the changes you don't like happened over a decade ago. What's the point in complaining about them now?

And you do realize the idiocy of telling someone that ten years of experience aren't enough to talk about the game, right?

I didn’t say you couldn’t comment on the game I said my points were about things before you’re time. When we discuss models stats it’s good to know where that comes from. When you remember the roots you can see solutions that will pass you by because of your view from 4th onward. The problems with Warhammer were decades in the making and they fixed a lot of them by scrapping the basics and starting again. All new stats. If a model with an above average toughness isn’t tough anymore something is wrong fundamentally with the game. That goes back to first edition.

As for idiocy, there’s no need to be rude. If someone with 30 years of experience is talking and someone with ten comes in maybe the one with ten should listen. There is 20 years he’s missed out on. U might learn something kid.

Age does not warrant respect. There is no effort or skill involved in aging.

What would have warranted respect is accepting that your statement was flat out wrong and that your subjective view didn't match the facts. Instead you are trying to move goalposts and claiming moral high ground to make it appear right.

In case you already forgot due to your advanced age, this is what you posted:

Andykp wrote:
It’s game wide power creep that a T4 model isn’t considered tough. Now 2+ saves are everywhere and so are strength 4 or 5 weapons.

...on a thread about improvements to the 8th edition index we would like to see for the 8th edition codex.

Clearly this was talking about the power creep that happened in 2008, right?

 Jidmah wrote:
Age does not warrant respect. There is no effort or skill involved in aging.

What would have warranted respect is accepting that your statement was flat out wrong and that your subjective view didn't match the facts. Instead you are trying to move goalposts and claiming moral high ground to make it appear right.

In case you already forgot due to your advanced age, this is what you posted:

Andykp wrote:
It’s game wide power creep that a T4 model isn’t considered tough. Now 2+ saves are everywhere and so are strength 4 or 5 weapons.

...on a thread about improvements to the 8th edition index we would like to see for the 8th edition codex.

Clearly this was talking about the power creep that happened in 2008, right?

U say experience doesn’t equal respect but expect me to respect your experience and your opinion. My strummer is that T4 should be a tough model, end of. It isn’t it 8th and hasn’t been for a long time but it could be fixed. Talking on more special rules to compensate for mistakes made years ago isn’t a great answer. Make the stats matter again. What would warrant respect from me to you would not be calling me and idiot or saying things I’m saying are wrong. Sorry if you can’t see things went wrong before you started in the hobby and that there could be a fix back in the old days.

It’s clear everything you say is right and everyone who doesn’t agree is wrong. Objectively or subjectively. I think there are simple ways to make ORKS tougher again, higher saves more wounds, maybe even T5. Better that than messing about with cover and stuff. I’ve also noted that if someone doesn’t play the way you do it is wrong, that’s one of the problems in the hobby today. When you say the only new weapons that are str 4 are things like hurricane bolters shows your lack of experience.

This thread had had some good ideas, I’m hopeful that this book will deliver the best of both worlds, competitiveness for you people and fun balanced lists that have character for the fans of fluff based gameplay. The dark eldar book captured the character of that army brilliantly and gave you options to play in that many and rewards to do so. Here’s hoping they can do the same with ORKS. To fix ORKS “lack” of toughness is a systemic thing.

Anyway I’m out of here. Don’t need to argue with you anymore. There’s no point.

Good riddance. You have added nothing to this thread.

 Jidmah wrote:
Good riddance. You have added nothing to this thread.

A New codex is about to drop, Jidmah's nerves are becoming frazzled and hes attacking everyone RUN!

Just kidding bud but hopefully not about that codex drop.

Not sure what the arguement is about. T4 is standard toughness. Just because guard are humans and t3 doesnt mean thats standard. t4 should not be hard to kill or easy to kill. It offers a standard amount of resistance to wounding.

What boyz need in the new codex is a 6+ fnp as an ork special rule instead of a 6+ armor save. painboyz nearby can make this +1. they may not wear armor, but they are tough as nails. They still take damage the same (represented by toughness 4) but can fight through even the most grevious wounds, as stated many many times in the fluff.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Not sure what the arguement is about. T4 is standard toughness. Just because guard are humans and t3 doesnt mean thats standard. t4 should not be hard to kill or easy to kill. It offers a standard amount of resistance to wounding.

What boyz need in the new codex is a 6+ fnp as an ork special rule instead of a 6+ armor save. painboyz nearby can make this +1. they may not wear armor, but they are tough as nails. They still take damage the same (represented by toughness 4) but can fight through even the most grevious wounds, as stated many many times in the fluff.

They definitely need fnp to match the fluff, but they need at least 6+ armor with 6+ fnp. The only problem with that is the massive number of largely ineffective dice rolls.

6+/6+++ is just a little worse than 7+/5+++, which would be perfectly acceptable.