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gendoikari87 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

Oh look tacticals and razor spam won. Surprising no one. Neat. Guard only took 6th ...and 11th and 12 and 14th and 15th.....

Snooze-fest autopilot list wins semi-competitive event. lol

I thought tactical squads were widely considered as the most useless unit of 40k ?

 Aaranis wrote:
I thought tactical squads were widely considered as the most useless unit of 40k ?

They generally are. It was the Razorback spam, Stormraven and Roboute that likely did all the heavy lifting.

 Aaranis wrote:
I thought tactical squads were widely considered as the most useless unit of 40k ?

Gotta get the Razorbacks somehow.

Also his list has a great synergy between the Stormraven's native -1 and Tigerius handing the Stormraven another -1. The best thing to shoot in his list starts at -1. The other things to shoot are razorbacks. His list has great resistance to alpha strikes and has the most amount of lascannons / assault cannons that you can cram into an RG list.

Wulfey wrote:
Also his list has a great synergy between the Stormraven's native -1 and Tigerius handing the Stormraven another -1. The best thing to shoot in his list starts at -1. The other things to shoot are razorbacks. His list has great resistance to alpha strikes and has the most amount of lascannons / assault cannons that you can cram into an RG list.

And it is painfully boring and extremely point-and-click. Then again, it is also tragically pretty fluffy. Gotta love them Space Marines.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

Oh look tacticals and razor spam won. Surprising no one. Neat. Guard only took 6th ...and 11th and 12 and 14th and 15th.....

Snooze-fest autopilot list wins semi-competitive event. lol

yup basically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
I thought tactical squads were widely considered as the most useless unit of 40k ?

doesnt mean they are. They suck compared to everything that's all. But that's mathhammer. Are they good at x? No tac squads suck at x but they can do it. That's why you never underestimate tac squads. Are tac squads as good at shooting as tau and guard? No but they'll still shoot you in the face. Are they as good as berserkers in cc ? No but they'll still punch your face. Are they as good at ant tank as an onager or even a dev squad? No but they can still get through. Tac squads need support and they aren't winning any MVP awards but they'll get you there

Basically tac squads exist to be a threat, not the biggest threat, and sit on objectives. They do that job adequately. Not good. Not super bad. Adequately. If they had report cards they'd get c's and d's for every thing. That's their purpose. They are the core unit the game is designed around

I'd probably have gone at least one of those a dev squad but I like my heavy gunline

Otherwise mnop s analysis is spot on

It's the Razorbacks that are the threat. They act as a force multiplier for the Tacticals. Ironically, our army does pretty well against Razorback spam. A 4-walker Goondozer unit or three Neutron Crawlers can each delete a Razorback every turn. And paired Dragoons can block a transport entirely. (We just struggle against things like Daemon, Guardsmen, and Orks.)

Suzuteo wrote:
It's the Razorbacks that are the threat. They act as a force multiplier for the Tacticals. Ironically, our army does pretty well against Razorback spam. A 4-walker Goondozer unit or three Neutron Crawlers can each delete a Razorback every turn. And paired Dragoons can block a transport entirely. (We just struggle against things like Daemon, Guardsmen, and Orks.)

it's also worth nothing you don't need a tac squad per razorback. you can take a razorback for the flyer, you can take a razorback for the HQ, ect.

gendoikari87 wrote:
.
Basically tac squads exist to be a threat, not the biggest threat, and sit on objectives. They do that job adequately. Not good. Not super bad. Adequately. If they had report cards they'd get c's and d's for every thing. That's their purpose. They are the core unit the game is designed around

I’ve been working on a similar principal for vanguard. Everyone and their dog ignores a bare 5 man squad. Put 2 plasma calivers in there however and suddenly they’re more of a threat. If only arc rifles were a bit better, though I guess against light vehicles they’re not bad, then we could do it cheaper.

Though an autocannon balistarii is only 2 points more than a plasma vanguard squad...but we have to take troops, we don’t have to take fast attack. Bleh. I’d rather have the iron striders. I’d field a whole army if I could lol.

Octovol wrote:
I’ve been working on a similar principal for vanguard. Everyone and their dog ignores a bare 5 man squad. Put 2 plasma calivers in there however and suddenly they’re more of a threat. If only arc rifles were a bit better, though I guess against light vehicles they’re not bad, then we could do it cheaper.

Well, yes they become more of a threat and/or an easy target. Adding 2 plasma calivers ups the cost of the unit from 5 vanguard to 8 vanguard, but still has the survivability of 5.

EDIT: Also, why not take rangers to carry your Calivers? They are cheaper.

 ph34r wrote:

Octovol wrote:
I’ve been working on a similar principal for vanguard. Everyone and their dog ignores a bare 5 man squad. Put 2 plasma calivers in there however and suddenly they’re more of a threat. If only arc rifles were a bit better, though I guess against light vehicles they’re not bad, then we could do it cheaper.

Well, yes they become more of a threat and/or an easy target. Adding 2 plasma calivers ups the cost of the unit from 5 vanguard to 8 vanguard, but still has the survivability of 5.

EDIT: Also, why not take rangers to carry your Calivers? They are cheaper.

Them being an easy target is kinda the point though. With or without the calivers they are easy to take down, it’s incentivising your opponent to target them before your other stuff and using them to control the flow of battle. Virtually every battle I’ve played so far if I have anything left at the end, it’s onagers and TPD, sometimes robots. The stuff that died was supposed to die. 8 vanguard with no calivers is just as easy to ignore as 5, but the calivers give you options both in dmg output and strategy.

My first game with the new codex my guard friend conceded his turn 3. I had 2 Neutronager, 2 TPD and 2 robots left, he didn’t even manage to wound any of them; stygies -1 to hit is very strong against guard. In that battle I actually infiltrated my caliver vanguard to within range of his heavy weapons squads, if they didn’t have calivers he wouldn’t even have bother with them and just put more firepower elsewhere.

I would use rangers but if your gun range is 30 they tend to be targeted before you can get the calivers in range; plus you can advance and still fire the radium carbines and calivers. And the carbines are just plain better than galvanic rifles. the number of times I’ve rolled 2 dmg against a vehicle or character is worth having 9 radium shots to go with the 4 caliver shots. Both guns rely on rolling 6s to be mor effective, the carbines is just more worth it.

Octovol wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
.
Basically tac squads exist to be a threat, not the biggest threat, and sit on objectives. They do that job adequately. Not good. Not super bad. Adequately. If they had report cards they'd get c's and d's for every thing. That's their purpose. They are the core unit the game is designed around

I’ve been working on a similar principal for vanguard. Everyone and their dog ignores a bare 5 man squad. Put 2 plasma calivers in there however and suddenly they’re more of a threat. If only arc rifles were a bit better, though I guess against light vehicles they’re not bad, then we could do it cheaper.

Though an autocannon balistarii is only 2 points more than a plasma vanguard squad...but we have to take troops, we don’t have to take fast attack. Bleh. I’d rather have the iron striders. I’d field a whole army if I could lol.

Alas, without transports (or some bubble shield or bodyguard ability), the same principle does not apply to our Vanguard. =(

gendoikari87 wrote:
So a patrol gives you +3 command points. Anyone considering running a battalion of stygies vanguard or rangers for objective grabbing? Super cheap. But elsyians they ain't

In the list im building currently, Stygies is the main Battalion. 3x naked Rangers, a Dragoon unit and the HQ tax is it. For running pure Ad Mech, it seemed the auto include paired with Cawls Mars Spearhead.

I do like the idea of 5 lone rangers. If you don't mind going second. Pretty much every time the enemy fires at a unit like that it's not going to be a good feeling. You'll pretty much always use too much firepower or leave one or two behind.

It's not quite the same as tac squads because tac squads can do anti tank at range ....poorly but they can do it. Buts it's the same tactical idea. Cheap unit your enemy should be able to ignore but not really. Still gives that "I just wasted firepower" feeling to shoot at them.

Thrown in a stygies battalion however they might be amazing for a 40 point objective anchor

Yeah, on the one hand they waste their firepower and don't focus down things like Robots as much as they should. On the other hand they get First Blood easily.

Have you guys gone up against the Bash Brothers list yet?

Magnus + Mortarian + Changeling + Horrors + maybe a knight renegade.

I am incorporating the Earthshakers + the optional Relic of Cadia Relic to give me a turn of rerolling to hit and wound against those monsters. But man those two are just terrible.

Also, have any of you got experience with a Culexus? Could it help against bash brothers?

The only Chaos opponent I fight regularly is Iron Warriors, so I have yet to fight either Daemon Primarch.

Wulfey wrote:
Have you guys gone up against the Bash Brothers list yet?

Magnus + Mortarian + Changeling + Horrors + maybe a knight renegade.

I am incorporating the Earthshakers + the optional Relic of Cadia Relic to give me a turn of rerolling to hit and wound against those monsters. But man those two are just terrible.

Also, have any of you got experience with a Culexus? Could it help against bash brothers?

Wrathbots can kill Magnus in a turn (even with Changeling). Morty takes a turn plus added firepower. Twin Neutrons should take out the Knight.

You can then spend the rest of the time just chewing through the Horrors.

That is the idea, at least. Really, running both Primarchs seems like a big point sink.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Have you guys gone up against the Bash Brothers list yet?

Magnus + Mortarian + Changeling + Horrors + maybe a knight renegade.

I am incorporating the Earthshakers + the optional Relic of Cadia Relic to give me a turn of rerolling to hit and wound against those monsters. But man those two are just terrible.

Also, have any of you got experience with a Culexus? Could it help against bash brothers?

Wrathbots can kill Magnus in a turn (even with Changeling). Morty takes a turn plus added firepower. Twin Neutrons should take out the Knight.

You can then spend the rest of the time just chewing through the Horrors.

That is the idea, at least. Really, running both Primarchs seems like a big point sink.

it would be if horrors wernt so cheap and spammable.

How would triple knight plus conscripts spam work against bash bros?

Actually, I think we're good against Bash Brothers. All of our core units, including Kastelans with Wrath, Neutron, Icarus, and Dragoons all do great against them. Just castle up and focus them down one at a time. Kill 25% of their army each turn until all that's left are Horrors. (Again, our real problem is dealing with aggressive melee hordes.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New salt deposit discovered. (They're spoiling the Eldar codex. Lots of dice manipulation so far...)

Wulfey wrote:
Have you guys gone up against the Bash Brothers list yet?

Magnus + Mortarian + Changeling + Horrors + maybe a knight renegade.

I am incorporating the Earthshakers + the optional Relic of Cadia Relic to give me a turn of rerolling to hit and wound against those monsters. But man those two are just terrible.

Also, have any of you got experience with a Culexus? Could it help against bash brothers?

The Culexus is fantastic. He won't ever kill anything, but he'll keep most things you throw him at tied up for a very long time.

As for stopping daemon primarchs... it can certainly help to setup some pressure, but don't count on holding them in line for more than one turn. While the Culexus is only hit on 6s, with T4 and only 5 wounds, it doesn't take much of a stretch of probability to fry the Culexus in one go. The upside here, however, is that his ability to mess with psychic powers helps to force your opponent into a position where they need to actually deal with him. It requires some specific setup, but if you can funnel the big beasties onto the Culexus for a turn, he can help to buy up enough time to bring down one of those badboys.

Suzuteo wrote:
New salt deposit discovered. (They're spoiling the Eldar codex. Lots of dice manipulation so far...)

Honestly I think Eldar players are going to be nearly as mad as us. Their doctrines look pretty garbo so far. Maybe we can team up with them and beat up the Astra Militarum Codex in the alley after school.

EDIT: Fellow Mars forge world players, it occurs to me, our Doctrine is basically meaningless.

Now, far be it from whining, this could be an advantage: we have no reason not to also take Assassins, Grey Knights, Sororitias, Sanctioned Psykers, etc etc etc in our Mars Detachments. Are there any other units that might be great in this situation?

Custodians could function as an infinitely better alternative to fistelans as a midline defensive unit, or as a frontline advancing force.

 ph34r wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
New salt deposit discovered. (They're spoiling the Eldar codex. Lots of dice manipulation so far...)

Honestly I think Eldar players are going to be nearly as mad as us. Their doctrines look pretty garbo so far. Maybe we can team up with them and beat up the Astra Militarum Codex in the alley after school.

EDIT: Fellow Mars forge world players, it occurs to me, our Doctrine is basically meaningless.

Now, far be it from whining, this could be an advantage: we have no reason not to also take Assassins, Grey Knights, Sororitias, Sanctioned Psykers, etc etc etc in our Mars Detachments. Are there any other units that might be great in this situation?

I am eyeing the Bullgryn bomb. Bots and Bullgryns. Bullgryns put out about 70% of the mathhammer damage of a strategemed Dragoon squad point for point, but they pack mean invulnerable saves and a 6 man offensive lineman squad gets impossibly tough if you can land the two Psykana powers on them (-1 to hit from shooting and +1 to saves).

5x dragoons = 340 points
6x Bullgryns + 1x Priest + 2x astropaths = 317 points [note, really needs celestine to work right for the 6++ that gets buffed down to a 3++ or even 2++]

The dragoons are much more versitile, but the Bullgryns have crazy synergies and are one of the handful of units that can absorb a Bash Brother charge and still stand there.

EDIT: also yes, canticles don't mean a damned thing. Everyone brings -3 shooting and directs that -3 shooting at the robots and the onagers. Both of those have 5++ base invuls. So that you have cover means nothing due to the -3 making the invul better.

EDIT2: something sad to think about. 1 FistRobot is 121 points. 3 bullgryns are 126 points. I dare you to compare those two units after you factor in the available buffs in both codexes.

Since we basically can intercept with all of our infantry troops, I would like to know if we need or if it would be wise for us to field a dedicated intercept unit and which of them would be best suited for this task. E-Priests? Plasma Vanguard? Kataphrons?

This is an adeptus mechanicus tactics threat. We can't start comparing all units with guard. I know there are extreme differences but.. you can't have both super dakka and superb screener. As you said take bullgryns if you want a 2+ melee goodness. Cause mechnicum does not have that option. Imperium soup got nice options go for it. Assassin's pshyckers hq troops so many options. Gw will not give ad mech much more. Why cause you got direct shooting in mass with mortals and if you screen it with bullgryns Celestine etc it's becoming really bad ass. Most tours got rules for single faction lists to avoid it ND it will have limitation.

Yoda79 wrote:
This is an adeptus mechanicus tactics threat. We can't start comparing all units with guard.

Yes. We can. Because our faction got a crap 'Dex and we need to bolster it with something good to be remotely competitive.

My singular hope is that FoC is coming out soon.

From over on the FW N&R:

RazorEdge wrote:

On Thursday at 4:00 pm, we’ll be checking in with Tony Cottrell, head of the Forge World studio. While we can’t reveal what he’ll be showing off, we can guarantee it’ll be awesome – would you expect anything else from the team that brought you the Horus Heresy?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/17/this-week-on-warhammer-live-craftworlds-preview-tonys-mystery-crate-and-more/

I hope it is FoC, but I know it will more likely be AT... which is awesome, too. We really would benefit from FW stuff just so we can be a complete faction. Right now, I feel like we are about 1/3 of a real faction, given how few things we can reasonably field.

Anyone know what the actual models for the ordo reductor are supposed to be? They take whirlwind missiles and can replace them with basilisk cannons ... so chimera base? Rhino?

Also MYRMIDONS!!!!!!!