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Red_Drake wrote:
I think we can confirm that the Chaos Daemon strategems and powers will not work on chaos space marine codex units by the use of non-keyworded "Tzeentch Daemons" in the previewed strategems and spells.
Unless hikaru can confirm that the stratagems and spells in the book use KEYWORDS.

Do you mean the Tzeench Deamons under Locus of Conjuration or the Tzeench Deamon Character you select or the Tzeench Deamons effected by the reroll? Because you could make an argument that there is a difference between any three of those in relation to your army. The effect could benefit nearby Tzeench Deamons, or the Stratagem itself simply cannot unlock without a Tzeench Deamon in the army, or the Character could have to be from the Codex itself. Due to the confusion around Deamon keywords and keywords becoming universal after the battle begins, this is one of those "have to wait for FAQ" moments.

HOWEVER, Death Guard codex players have been bringing CSM Codex Detachments and using those stratagems on Death Guard units for a while now. This has been proven legal by GW and the bois at Frontline Gaming. This would imply that you can do the same thing with Deamons Codex and Chaos Marines or Death Guard Codex mixed armies.

Red_Drake wrote:
I think we can confirm that the Chaos Daemon strategems and powers will not work on chaos space marine codex units by the use of non-keyworded "Tzeentch Daemons" in the previewed strategems and spells.

Unless hikaru can confirm that the stratagems and spells in the book use KEYWORDS.

But the Khorne preview does use keywords, so it might be a mistake on the part of GW.

Yeah it's odd. I mean, even without the bold keywords, Magnus is still a "Tzeentch Daemon Character", for example. I hope it's an accident?

 Virules wrote:

Red_Drake wrote:
I think we can confirm that the Chaos Daemon strategems and powers will not work on chaos space marine codex units by the use of non-keyworded "Tzeentch Daemons" in the previewed strategems and spells.

Unless hikaru can confirm that the stratagems and spells in the book use KEYWORDS.

If true, that would take away the only truly redeeming thing we've seen for this codex so far, other than a few minor buffs to underused units.

What!? Our codex doesn't allow us to deepstrike Primarchs and buff them to even more insane levels!? Absolute thrash. /s

Why do you even play this game? Just walk up to someone and say: "I win!". No cash or painting required!

<Tzeentch> and <Daemon> are keywords. So, unless <Tzeentch Daemon> is a new keyword, you may mix and match as normal I would wager.

 andysonic1 wrote:

Red_Drake wrote:
I think we can confirm that the Chaos Daemon strategems and powers will not work on chaos space marine codex units by the use of non-keyworded "Tzeentch Daemons" in the previewed strategems and spells.
Unless hikaru can confirm that the stratagems and spells in the book use KEYWORDS.

Do you mean the Tzeench Deamons under Locus of Conjuration or the Tzeench Deamon Character you select or the Tzeench Deamons effected by the reroll? Because you could make an argument that there is a difference between any three of those in relation to your army. The effect could benefit nearby Tzeench Deamons, or the Stratagem itself simply cannot unlock without a Tzeench Deamon in the army, or the Character could have to be from the Codex itself. Due to the confusion around Deamon keywords and keywords becoming universal after the battle begins, this is one of those "have to wait for FAQ" moments.

There's no KEYWORDS in that stratagem, which means it wont affect Chaos Space Marine TZEENTCH DAEMONS.

What we are MOST likely to see is a situation similar to how they handle "Space Marines Units" in the space marine codex. Where they define a lower case version to exclude certain units.

3++ lord of change, what's not to love about that?!

I think gw plans on us making out greater deamons stronger through relics and warlord traits instead of just making them better by default.

Yeah, I hope our stratagems don't work on chaos marine codex units. I don't want an Uber broken army setup where suddenly the brothers of chaos become unreasonably powerful. They are strong enough as it is.

Hmm, see the Helbrute/HELBRUTE discourse on this one. I’d avoid jumping in and milking this cow until the first FAQ.

For the argument over what gets effected by the Tzeentch stratagem

They say there are no keywords so it won’t effect csm Tzeentch daemons but by the same logic it won’t effect Tzeentch daemons from the daemons book either!

It effects Tzeentch daemons

Anything with those keywords is a Tzeentch daemon

Azuza001 wrote:
3++ lord of change, what's not to love about that?!

I think gw plans on us making out greater deamons stronger through relics and warlord traits instead of just making them better by default.

Yeah, I hope our stratagems don't work on chaos marine codex units. I don't want an Uber broken army setup where suddenly the brothers of chaos become unreasonably powerful. They are strong enough as it is.

What isn't to love is 360pts for a pile of garbage wearing a large inv save.

Oh god the Helbrute keyword thing is so frustrating LOL. I honestly believe the Tzeentch one is just an oversight since the Khorne one is keyworded.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Red_Drake wrote:
I think we can confirm that the Chaos Daemon strategems and powers will not work on chaos space marine codex units by the use of non-keyworded "Tzeentch Daemons" in the previewed strategems and spells.

Unless hikaru can confirm that the stratagems and spells in the book use KEYWORDS.

But the Khorne preview does use keywords, so it might be a mistake on the part of GW.

Yeah could be true. The Khorne "chapter tactics" is bolded, but the Tzeentch one isn't. Hrmmm.

Guyver 3 wrote:
For the argument over what gets effected by the Tzeentch stratagem

They say there are no keywords so it won’t effect csm Tzeentch daemons but by the same logic it won’t effect Tzeentch daemons from the daemons book either!

It effects Tzeentch daemons

Anything with those keywords is a Tzeentch daemon

Not necessarily. See Codex: Space Marines where they define (non-keyworded) Space Marine Units to be all <CHAPTER> units that arent blood angels, space wolves, or dark angels.

We will most likely see "Tzeenth Daemons" defined as TZEENTCH DAEMON units with the Daemonic Ritual ability.

(unless the non-keyworded is a typo just for the preview, as the Khorne one had keywords, and hikaru said we can use the deepstrike strategem on mortarion)

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
3++ lord of change, what's not to love about that?!

I think gw plans on us making out greater deamons stronger through relics and warlord traits instead of just making them better by default.

Yeah, I hope our stratagems don't work on chaos marine codex units. I don't want an Uber broken army setup where suddenly the brothers of chaos become unreasonably powerful. They are strong enough as it is.

What isn't to love is 360pts for a pile of garbage wearing a large inv save.

No, we are taking about the giant chicken lord, not the great unclean one. He is the one that looks like a pile of garbage lol.

Jokes aside, I will still run it at least once or twice and see how it works. My chicken needs to get the dust cleaned off him.

The lord of change would be very decent if the Tzeentch powers were half as good as the csm ones, a fairly average combat beast with no ranged ability to speak of is hardly fitting for a Tzeentch greater daemon

Just poor and unimaginative rules writing

Did we get confirmation that there's no change to the original Index powers, or did hikaru just not tell us about them?

Its possible we'll see changes to the Tzeentch index powers, considering how AWFUL they are

sadly all the powers are bad even the vortex one as it’s 12” and it targets the nearest model so good luck getting it to hit more than 1 unit at wc8! Smite will always be a better option!

Yeah the Tzeentch powers are a major fail by GW. Too bad we didn't get the old ones back.

On the bright side, taking a Tzeentch psyker for the reroll a die power will be useful in really any detachment. Saves a CP for the die reroll stratagem.

Rerolling a single die is only marginally helpful. It's... not a great power.

I'm a bit late to the party, but I was curious - that khorne relic axe that's +3 str, ap4, D6 damage - is that something that can only be taken on larger khorne daemons (like bloodthirsters), or can you take it on smaller character units? Can you give it to CSM characters?

I think it said it can only replace an axe of khorne, but I'm not too familiar with what can take those.

Flickering Fires seems solid, +1 to wound is going to be good on anything with volume of attacks. Treason from the original table is quite good in many circumstances. Boon isn't...awful, considering how often we have big blobs of horrors in close combat tying things up, I frequently throw Boon on Changeling.

The reroll one is uninspired but generally decent as an extra power to throw. All the offense powers don't look good individually but if you load them all on say Kairos with his +2 and combo it with your initial smite, you'll get D6 damage results pretty reliably.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party, but I was curious - that khorne relic axe that's +3 str, ap4, D6 damage - is that something that can only be taken on larger khorne daemons (like bloodthirsters), or can you take it on smaller character units? Can you give it to CSM characters?

Deamon codex only. Princes or Bloodthirster only.

Unlike the csm powers which are all useful the Tzeentch powers being this bad are just a slap in the face, no one was asking for broken powers but usable/useful ones would have been nice!

Well I, for one, am very excited to see the return of the Impossible Robe. Sure, it's not going to make a Lord of Change totally worth it's ludicrously high point cost - but it will (I hope) at least make it viable for more casual games. If nothing else, it'll make for a great distraction.

The Tzeentch Index powers are not great for sure, personally though I'd be happy if they simply made Bolt of Change easier to cast. That WC9 is just absurd.

I love the changes to Flamers and Screamers we've been told so far, now I'm most curious about any Warlord Traits or Chaos Undivided Locus we might not know about. (If there are any generic Locus that is)

That skull cannon buff is HUGE! A 1/3 price drop combined with an over doubling of it's firepower? A mono-khorne brigade is starting to look really tempting. If blood crushers were dropped to ~120 a squad and hounds to ~80 a squad, I could see this really being a thing.

Are there any more clarifications on how "Locus" abilities work? It seems like "Supreme Command" detachments are less useful if you want to use "Locus" if the aura doesn't affect other detachments.

urzaplanewalker wrote:
That skull cannon buff is HUGE! A 1/3 price drop combined with an over doubling of it's firepower? A mono-khorne brigade is starting to look really tempting. If blood crushers were dropped to ~120 a squad and hounds to ~80 a squad, I could see this really being a thing.

There are no point changes to other Khorne units (as far as we know).

ntin wrote:
Are there any more clarifications on how "Locus" abilities work? It seems like "Supreme Command" detachments are less useful if you want to use "Locus" if the aura doesn't affect other detachments.

It should work just like every other aura works in the game, meaning it will effect other detachments. In the Designer Commentary it goes into Herald's auras effecting Possessed. I don't see this changing as long as the Keyword system stays the same.

I can see dropping in a LoC with a 3++ and giving him the WC8 does MW to a unit and all units within 3”. Of course opponents would quickly learn to space units out, but the purpose would be to use the threat of that power to impact their deployment options. Or do it on the cheap side with a herald just to use the threat without the additional umph of a big daemon.

T7 with a 3++ is nothing to laugh at for sure and it would draw an absolute ton of firepower while the rest of the army gets into position for turn 2 shenanigans. I still think the LoC is too expensive even with the tiny points cut, and I’m going to be suuuuuuper salty if my LoC, a greater daemon of the chaos god of sorcery, can still only cast two psychic powers!

Overall I’m loving the idea of gunline tzeentch as well as heralds on discs runnin around with screamers. I’m a little sad about the changeling, but it’s not terrible, basically paying a 25 point premium over a herald to get a 6+++. If I’m running hordes of horrors that’ll come in handy depending on the aura radius.

I’m still not sold on the locus of trickery...it feels very situational, maybe for a melee rush screamer army? Or piles and piles of furies? It still feels very iffy, and not something I’d want to put points into.

 andysonic1 wrote:

urzaplanewalker wrote:
That skull cannon buff is HUGE! A 1/3 price drop combined with an over doubling of it's firepower? A mono-khorne brigade is starting to look really tempting. If blood crushers were dropped to ~120 a squad and hounds to ~80 a squad, I could see this really being a thing.

There are no point changes to other Khorne units (as far as we know).

True, but if my predictions are right, this could be very tempting for sure.

I usually run Khorne daemonkin so I am excited about the BT change even though I wish they droped in points.

I usually run some dogs and bloodcrushers and I was wondering if those units had any changes? Maybe a point drop for either one or increased toughness on the crusher?

Also thanks for answering everyone's questions.