The Federation would stomp the Galactic Empire, prove me wrong!

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Frazzled**

Vulcan wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Vulcan wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Well they certainly have blind spots in their firing arcs. Directly behind their massive engines they have no defense. Also the most vulnerable parts of the ship are there too. The engines and shield generators and also the bridge as well.

We have fighters in RotJ that destroy these sheild generators easily - on a SSD during a battle in which the empire outnumbered the rebels 5:1 - so it's only reasonable that SF ships would not struggle to disable/destroy ISD's.

With the caveat that those fighters are destroying the shield generators from within the shield perimeter itself...

Seems odd - we see how shield work in RotJ against Mon Cals - Tiefighters shoot them and even crash into them and we see a sheild effect very close to the ship hull. Are sheilds different on imperial ships? Do they make a giant shield bubble that a fighter can fly into?

Yes. We see that in RotJ when Ren not just flies his fighter into their shield perimeter, but into their launch bay. We see it in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan fly right into General Grevious' ship after disabling the atmosphere screen on their landing bay. We see it again in TPM when little Anni flies his Naboo fighter into the hangar of the Lucrehulk command ship. Rogue One shows Y-Wings fly through an ISD's shield to disable it with ion torpedoes. Later that same ISD is pushed into another ISD with no interaction with it's shields. And finally a GR-75 flies right through an ISD's shields (and goes spat on it's armored hull).

Over and over again, we see ships flying right through shields. I mentioned this earlier, shields in SW are like shield generators in Dune. Slow and steady penetrates the shield. Only big planetary-grade shields like on Scarif and protecting the DSII at Endor can splat a fighter on impact.

That's why they ARMOR ships.

Now. Do we ever see a small ship go splat on a larger ship's shields in Star Trek? Somehow I doubt it, given the Defiant class' usual tactic of flying NOE across a larger ship's hull, and how the common depiction of shields under fire show a large bubble surrounding the generating ship significantly further out...

Jem Hadar ships turn Kamikaze runs into larger capital ships into high art.

**Vulcan**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's at least one Voyager episode where two shuttlecraft collide and the shields violently repel each other.

Plus, if Star Wars shields don't block fighters, why would they block torpedoes? Star Destroyers would be facing a weapon that completely negates their shields and is at least as powerful as their own turbolasers. If an A-wing ramming into the bridge of an Executor can wreck the entire thing enough that it veers enough off course to ram itself into the Death Star, imagine what a quantum torpedo would do.

Torpedoes seem to be much faster than fighters. It could be that simple. Not to mention that the SW universe does have proton torpedoes as weapons, it's not unreasonable to expect that shields would stop such weapons.

The real mystery is why the ion cannon on Hoth went straight through an ISD's shields with no interaction at all...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

Jem Hadar ships turn Kamikaze runs into larger capital ships into high art.

And there we go. ST ships are just as vulnerable to snub fighters as SW ships. As if the Defiant hadn't already proved that. Now all the Empire needs is some decent snub fighters...

**Kid_Kyoto**

Heck in Star Wars there's even a line at the start of the Battle of Yavin to the effect of 'we're passing through Death Star's energy field'.

So I'm a fan of 'shields stop energy but not matter'.

**Grey Templar**

Well, some shields in Star Wars can stop matter. The field protecting Scarif in Rogue 1 and the Death Star IIs energy shield projected from Yavin both were physical barriers. The Shield Gate in scarif we actually saw, and in RotJ we can infer it from them needing to take down the shield in the first place(as well as the fighters needing to pull up). Cause otherwise they wouldn't have needed to take down the shield at all, they could have passed right through and hit the Death Star immediately.

Star Wars shields can also clearly be selective about what they let through. Every ship with a hanger bay has an energy field that can keep the atmosphere in but allow ships to pass through.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Grey Templar wrote:
Well, some shields in Star Wars can stop matter. The field protecting Scarif in Rogue 1 and the Death Star IIs energy shield projected from Yavin both were physical barriers. The Shield Gate in scarif we actually saw, and in RotJ we can infer it from them needing to take down the shield in the first place(as well as the fighters needing to pull up). Cause otherwise they wouldn't have needed to take down the shield at all, they could have passed right through and hit the Death Star immediately.

Star Wars shields can also clearly be selective about what they let through. Every ship with a hanger bay has an energy field that can keep the atmosphere in but allow ships to pass through.

Good point, so how about 'there's lots of kinds of shields'. Deflector fields, force fields, magnetic fields, ray fields, plot armor....

**Formosa**

Vulcan wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Vulcan wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Well they certainly have blind spots in their firing arcs. Directly behind their massive engines they have no defense. Also the most vulnerable parts of the ship are there too. The engines and shield generators and also the bridge as well.

We have fighters in RotJ that destroy these sheild generators easily - on a SSD during a battle in which the empire outnumbered the rebels 5:1 - so it's only reasonable that SF ships would not struggle to disable/destroy ISD's.

With the caveat that those fighters are destroying the shield generators from within the shield perimeter itself...

Seems odd - we see how shield work in RotJ against Mon Cals - Tiefighters shoot them and even crash into them and we see a sheild effect very close to the ship hull. Are sheilds different on imperial ships? Do they make a giant shield bubble that a fighter can fly into?

Yes. We see that in RotJ when Ren not just flies his fighter into their shield perimeter, but into their launch bay. We see it in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan fly right into General Grevious' ship after disabling the atmosphere screen on their landing bay. We see it again in TPM when little Anni flies his Naboo fighter into the hangar of the Lucrehulk command ship. Rogue One shows Y-Wings fly through an ISD's shield to disable it with ion torpedoes. Later that same ISD is pushed into another ISD with no interaction with it's shields. And finally a GR-75 flies right through an ISD's shields (and goes spat on it's armored hull).

Over and over again, we see ships flying right through shields. I mentioned this earlier, shields in SW are like shield generators in Dune. Slow and steady penetrates the shield. Only big planetary-grade shields like on Scarif and protecting the DSII at Endor can splat a fighter on impact.

That's why they ARMOR ships.

Now. Do we ever see a small ship go splat on a larger ship's shields in Star Trek? Somehow I doubt it, given the Defiant class' usual tactic of flying NOE across a larger ship's hull, and how the common depiction of shields under fire show a large bubble surrounding the generating ship significantly further out...

Ships cannot fly through Trek shields without the correct access codes, ro laren attempted it when working as a spy in the marquè, she had to send a message to the ship covertly so her “raider” could pass through the enterprises shields, she was let in.

**Frazzled**

Vulcan wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's at least one Voyager episode where two shuttlecraft collide and the shields violently repel each other.

Plus, if Star Wars shields don't block fighters, why would they block torpedoes? Star Destroyers would be facing a weapon that completely negates their shields and is at least as powerful as their own turbolasers. If an A-wing ramming into the bridge of an Executor can wreck the entire thing enough that it veers enough off course to ram itself into the Death Star, imagine what a quantum torpedo would do.

Torpedoes seem to be much faster than fighters. It could be that simple. Not to mention that the SW universe does have proton torpedoes as weapons, it's not unreasonable to expect that shields would stop such weapons.

The real mystery is why the ion cannon on Hoth went straight through an ISD's shields with no interaction at all...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

Jem Hadar ships turn Kamikaze runs into larger capital ships into high art.

And there we go. ST ships are just as vulnerable to snub fighters as SW ships. As if the Defiant hadn't already proved that. Now all the Empire needs is some decent snub fighters...

Not really. The jemhadar attacks didn't pass through the Shields, they overpowered them with damage. Shields were proven to stop physical attacks including fighters with multiple instances where they had to turn Shields off to let shuttles through.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Just for context, the Jem'hadar "fighters" were still more than 90 meters long. They're more akin to torpedo boats than a one-seat fighter craft.

**Frazzled**

I was thinking destroyers myself. After all, three took out a Galaxy class and they are on par with Birds of Prey.

**AlmightyWalrus**

I counted the B'rel Bird-of-prey as a Destroyer, and it's 150 meters long. That's more than 50% larger than the Jem'hadar fighter, hence why I counted it as something smaller.

**Frazzled**

Days cool.

**Vulcan**

Formosa wrote:

Ships cannot fly through Trek shields without the correct access codes, ro laren attempted it when working as a spy in the marquè, she had to send a message to the ship covertly so her “raider” could pass through the enterprises shields, she was let in.

And yet the Defiant REGULARLY does point-blank strafing runs on larger ships, well inside the bubble of their shield perimeter. So I'd bet what happened in Ensign Ro's case what happens is that it's easily detectable when a ship crosses the shield perimeter, and the message was to allow her to pass through the shields without setting off an alarm.

**Formosa**

Vulcan wrote:
Formosa wrote:

Ships cannot fly through Trek shields without the correct access codes, ro laren attempted it when working as a spy in the marquè, she had to send a message to the ship covertly so her “raider” could pass through the enterprises shields, she was let in.

And yet the Defiant REGULARLY does point-blank strafing runs on larger ships, well inside the bubble of their shield perimeter. So I'd bet what happened in Ensign Ro's case what happens is that it's easily detectable when a ship crosses the shield perimeter, and the message was to allow her to pass through the shields without setting off an alarm.

Where are you getting that?

From memory the only time I can think of something like you suggest is the mirror universe against the negh-var, other than that I cannot think of a single instance where the defiant passes through shields.

Not all shields are a bubble effect either, some are closer to the hull, usually secondary or tertiary shield generators.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Star Fleet/Star Trek ships have layers of shields, off the top of my head you have:

Navigational deflectors - move debris, radiation etc out of the way. The Enterprise D said that lasers won't even penetrate their navigational deflectors.

Shields - The ships main protection, not always raised, shrug off phasers and antimatter weapons, prevent transporters

Structural Integrity Field - holds the ship together during difficult maneuvers

Internal shields - confine borders, seal breaches, serve as doors in the brig, keep the antimatter from blowing up the ship

So we can figure since it was already midway through a battle the ship's main shields were down allowing the Defiant to get close, but they still had structural integrity and internal shields so the targets could still take damage.

**Formosa**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Star Fleet/Star Trek ships have layers of shields, off the top of my head you have:

Navigational deflectors - move debris, radiation etc out of the way. The Enterprise D said that lasers won't even penetrate their navigational deflectors.

Shields - The ships main protection, not always raised, shrug off phasers and antimatter weapons, prevent transporters

Structural Integrity Field - holds the ship together during difficult maneuvers

Internal shields - confine borders, seal breaches, serve as doors in the brig, keep the antimatter from blowing up the ship

So we can figure since it was already midway through a battle the ship's main shields were down allowing the Defiant to get close, but they still had structural integrity and internal shields so the targets could still take damage.

Exactly, federation ships also use backup shield generators in the case of others failing or being overloaded, Klingon ships use much more than this, fed ships also have ablative Armour and hull plating, they are tough little SOBs when they want to make a war ship... fed warships are incredibly scary compared to other races, hence the building of dreadnoughts to close the gap.

**AlmightyWalrus**

IIRC I read somewhere that the shields are supposed to be "form-fitting" in Star Trek but that the SFX wasn't good enough to make it believable so they went with bubbles for the visuals. Gonna see if I can find where I read it.

**Kilkrazy**

It could be down to processing power.

If you've made a model of a ship, it's pretty simple to duplicate it, enlarge it 10% and make it transparent and sparkly blue, but you're probably doubling the amount of processing time needed to create the total effect.

It would be a lot easier to program a sphere or oblate bubble.

**Vulcan**

Formosa wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Formosa wrote:

Ships cannot fly through Trek shields without the correct access codes, ro laren attempted it when working as a spy in the marquè, she had to send a message to the ship covertly so her “raider” could pass through the enterprises shields, she was let in.

And yet the Defiant REGULARLY does point-blank strafing runs on larger ships, well inside the bubble of their shield perimeter. So I'd bet what happened in Ensign Ro's case what happens is that it's easily detectable when a ship crosses the shield perimeter, and the message was to allow her to pass through the shields without setting off an alarm.

Where are you getting that?

From memory the only time I can think of something like you suggest is the mirror universe against the negh-var, other than that I cannot think of a single instance where the defiant passes through shields.

Not all shields are a bubble effect either, some are closer to the hull, usually secondary or tertiary shield generators.

Every single time I've seen shields onscreen in Star Trek, it's this big bubble around the ship. Every. Single. Time. It's remarkably similar to the effect Rian Johnson used in TLJ for the shields of the Rebel ships. It's nowhere as close to the hull of the ship as the Defiant usually does those point-blank attack runs.

Secondary and tertiary shields? That's a new one. Do you have a canon reference for that?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Star Fleet/Star Trek ships have layers of shields, off the top of my head you have:

Navigational deflectors - move debris, radiation etc out of the way. The Enterprise D said that lasers won't even penetrate their navigational deflectors.

Shields - The ships main protection, not always raised, shrug off phasers and antimatter weapons, prevent transporters

Structural Integrity Field - holds the ship together during difficult maneuvers

Internal shields - confine borders, seal breaches, serve as doors in the brig, keep the antimatter from blowing up the ship

So we can figure since it was already midway through a battle the ship's main shields were down allowing the Defiant to get close, but they still had structural integrity and internal shields so the targets could still take damage.

Now that I can get behind... now that I've been reminded.