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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
How about we add toughness and Feel No Pain and reduce the cost to like an arbitrary 31pts and allow groups of 3 minimum instead of 5.

And then add more toughness and a better FNP to Blightlords and Deathshroud, and apply these supposed changes to Scarab Occult?

Once again you forgot the whole scaling thing huh?

Nah man then Blightlords and death shrouds and scarab occults already have the buffs i suggested.

Loyalist terminator marines get to cheat by having cake and eating it. Loyalist terminators should get all that for free like how they got free transports from bogus Gladius Formations. All because the "Good" guys are supposed to win and SM used to be the poster child of GW.

GW doesnt care to balance the game, just push sales with over powered rules.

I like the 1+ save suggestion, and don't reckon it would make them excessively resilient.

Also reckon two heavy weapons per five guys would be fine too, although I'd more excited to see storm bolters (and all the other bolt weapons tbh) be more effective in the hands of marines, so the bolter guys aren't just serving as ablative wounds for the snazzy guys. My preferred option would be bumping up the rate of fire.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Terrible analogy slayer,
A better one would be the comparison of ground zero between a bomb and a nuclear bomb.

Also would -2 on AP really be that devastating? I think not and mind you that would only be reached by rubric terminators.

Dispersed energy vs a focused shot. The analogy is fine, as much as you hate it. Plasma Guns have ALWAYS been designated Terminator killers but it wasn't ever one of their primary issues. Now that they're the most durable they've been in years, we need to up the offensive output plain and simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
How about we add toughness and Feel No Pain and reduce the cost to like an arbitrary 31pts and allow groups of 3 minimum instead of 5.

And then add more toughness and a better FNP to Blightlords and Deathshroud, and apply these supposed changes to Scarab Occult?

Once again you forgot the whole scaling thing huh?

Nah man then Blightlords and death shrouds and scarab occults already have the buffs i suggested.

Loyalist terminator marines get to cheat by having cake and eating it. Loyalist terminators should get all that for free like how they got free transports from bogus Gladius Formations. All because the "Good" guys are supposed to win and SM used to be the poster child of GW.

GW doesnt care to balance the game, just push sales with over powered rules.

Well this is the proposed rules forum. If your fix is bad, it's bad.

1+ saves has two issues

The first, it does nothing at all against small arms. No help against horde spam, who is one of the TeQ major problems.

The second, or makes Scarabs even more silly as they would have 0+ against D1 attacks. Not that anyone uses D1 attacks that have any rend against TeQ.

 BoomWolf wrote:
1+ saves has two issues

The first, it does nothing at all against small arms. No help against horde spam, who is one of the TeQ major problems.

The second, or makes Scarabs even more silly as they would have 0+ against D1 attacks. Not that anyone uses D1 attacks that have any rend against TeQ.

They're already twice as durable to small arms than before. I haven't an idea what you would actually want.

It's probably been mentioned before, but I'd like to see termies with 3 wounds, an extra attack and the ability to ignore heavy weapon penalties (including power fists). And min squads of 3 too. Maybe some way to bump them to 4++ via a stratagem like knights. Or just 4++ all the time. Or maybe a stratagem that gives +1 to armor instead. So instead of 1+ sv all the time, you can negate some AP if you really need to.

Dandelion wrote:
It's probably been mentioned before, but I'd like to see termies with 3 wounds, an extra attack and the ability to ignore heavy weapon penalties (including power fists). And min squads of 3 too. Maybe some way to bump them to 4++ via a stratagem like knights. Or just 4++ all the time. Or maybe a stratagem that gives +1 to armor instead. So instead of 1+ sv all the time, you can negate some AP if you really need to.

Extra attack should def happen across the board for all marines. Ignore movement penalties for heavy weapons should def happen too.

The problem with letting them ignore the powerfist penalty is that 1. You end up with two specific rules contradicting one another (i.e. the powerfist making you subtract 1 from your hit roll and the terminator ignoring it), which feels a bit clunky; and 2. It renders the sergeant having a powersword completely pointless. Personally, I think the extra attack is enough of a boost so I’d be inclined to leave it alone.

Extra-wound-wise, it wouldn’t greatly upset me but you probably need to consider the knock-on effect it has for things like Nurgle Termies. Tbh I think the real problem with 2W Terminators is how cheap and readily-available plasma weaponry is. Fix that and it’s less of an issue.

 Nazrak wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
It's probably been mentioned before, but I'd like to see termies with 3 wounds, an extra attack and the ability to ignore heavy weapon penalties (including power fists). And min squads of 3 too. Maybe some way to bump them to 4++ via a stratagem like knights. Or just 4++ all the time. Or maybe a stratagem that gives +1 to armor instead. So instead of 1+ sv all the time, you can negate some AP if you really need to.

Extra attack should def happen across the board for all marines. Ignore movement penalties for heavy weapons should def happen too.

The problem with letting them ignore the powerfist penalty is that 1. You end up with two specific rules contradicting one another (i.e. the powerfist making you subtract 1 from your hit roll and the terminator ignoring it), which feels a bit clunky; and 2. It renders the sergeant having a powersword completely pointless. Personally, I think the extra attack is enough of a boost so I’d be inclined to leave it alone.

Extra-wound-wise, it wouldn’t greatly upset me but you probably need to consider the knock-on effect it has for things like Nurgle Termies. Tbh I think the real problem with 2W Terminators is how cheap and readily-available plasma weaponry is. Fix that and it’s less of an issue.

That was why one of the suggestions was to make them WS2+, BS2+ to allow them to be more reliable with their minimal damage output, while still allowing Lightingclaws and sword to have a better chance of hitting more but being less damaging.

2+ WS and BS would solve the damage output issue, but wouldn't solve the fragility.
Though as said before, I think it's mainly plasma fault, plasma needs a nerf anyway.

 BoomWolf wrote:
2+ WS and BS would solve the damage output issue, but wouldn't solve the fragility.
Though as said before, I think it's mainly plasma fault, plasma needs a nerf anyway.

Agreed, plasma is just too cheap for its stats its a bargain price jack if all trades weapon, though disintegration cannons are similarly broken.

Ice_can wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
2+ WS and BS would solve the damage output issue, but wouldn't solve the fragility.
Though as said before, I think it's mainly plasma fault, plasma needs a nerf anyway.

Agreed, plasma is just too cheap for its stats its a bargain price jack if all trades weapon, though disintegration cannons are similarly broken.

Plasma can maybe go back to its original price of 15 points, but Plasma is hardly the issue that makes them bad because not a lot of Plasma is being ran. Remember that Plasma wasn't the issue with Terminators last edition, and only if Overcharged they have the same exact durability.

 Nazrak wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
It's probably been mentioned before, but I'd like to see termies with 3 wounds, an extra attack and the ability to ignore heavy weapon penalties (including power fists). And min squads of 3 too. Maybe some way to bump them to 4++ via a stratagem like knights. Or just 4++ all the time. Or maybe a stratagem that gives +1 to armor instead. So instead of 1+ sv all the time, you can negate some AP if you really need to.

Extra attack should def happen across the board for all marines. Ignore movement penalties for heavy weapons should def happen too.

The problem with letting them ignore the powerfist penalty is that 1. You end up with two specific rules contradicting one another (i.e. the powerfist making you subtract 1 from your hit roll and the terminator ignoring it), which feels a bit clunky; and 2. It renders the sergeant having a powersword completely pointless. Personally, I think the extra attack is enough of a boost so I’d be inclined to leave it alone.

Extra-wound-wise, it wouldn’t greatly upset me but you probably need to consider the knock-on effect it has for things like Nurgle Termies. Tbh I think the real problem with 2W Terminators is how cheap and readily-available plasma weaponry is. Fix that and it’s less of an issue.

For me its still 1+ armour,
Happy with +1 Attack as well
If you also /or want to make them better with Power fists just change the stat line for that weapons for only those units - like how a Relic Glaive for a Succubus is better than a normal Glaive. Not all power fist users have to have the same stat line. Thats kinda the point of the new way of doing stat blocks I think - just that GW does not use it as much as they should.

Lastly get rid of all the pointless minor variations and make them all possible in the generic Terminator Squad usable by all marine codexes - one of the reasons they are currently bad is because they have to be worse than various snowflake versions. Many Chapters that are not so constantly indulged have equally special units as the Chosen Ones and nothing is actually being taken away from them anyway.

I think that by having a stratagem system in place, it lets GW somewhat balance the game on the fly as players could spend their CP's to open up new tactics and strategies. Do you think it's possible that we could see some form of balancing in this manner, specifically in regards to Termies? I think it could be possible to see a stratagem for specific factions that's somewhere along the lines of

"Terminator Protocols - 1 CP -
Use this stratagem before models are deployed. A target unit of terminators may pay half price for any combi weaponry".

or

"Terminator Armor - 1 CP -
Use this stratagem when a unit of Terminators are the target of an enemies attacks. Add 2 to their armor save until the end of the phase"


This is just an example, but I think it's do-able. What are everyone's thoughts on this, or something similar?

eternalxfl wrote:
I think that by having a stratagem system in place, it lets GW somewhat balance the game on the fly as players could spend their CP's to open up new tactics and strategies. Do you think it's possible that we could see some form of balancing in this manner, specifically in regards to Termies? I think it could be possible to see a stratagem for specific factions that's somewhere along the lines of

"Terminator Protocols - 1 CP -
Use this stratagem before models are deployed. A target unit of terminators may pay half price for any combi weaponry".

or

"Terminator Armor - 1 CP -
Use this stratagem when a unit of Terminators are the target of an enemies attacks. Add 2 to their armor save until the end of the phase"


This is just an example, but I think it's do-able. What are everyone's thoughts on this, or something similar?

Although some units definitely come into their element in combination with a stratagem, it's not doing the game any favors to make a unit viable by relying on a stratagem. Currently 10 plas/Psword slaaneshi terminators are almost doable after using 2cp on endless cacophony and another on VotLW if buffed by Prescience, but are still outclassed by Obliterators. Points and weapon changes could do a lot to help.

I'm not sure exactly how to make a storm/combi bolter and powerfist be decent on any model, but there are plenty of things to tweak on UP units and wargear. Lets look at what I think its the worst part of the worst unit. Powerfists on standard SM Terminator kits.

Removing the -1hit on x2S weapons. They tend to give +1 to wound in exchange for -1 hit and then not be worth 12pts for 2 hits of -3ap d3D. My point being you shouldn't have to pay premium to break even. Chainfists are clearly overpriced for evening out the damage and adding 1AP. Lightning claws seem to be priced fine imo.

Something defensive. People seem to like ignoring 1ap, I don't like it since there are moderate 1ap weapons like heavy bolters, autocannons, ion weapons, gauss and shuriken which don't deserve for their functionality to be removed. Though when we make "across the board" changes I tend to think it's ok to exclude select units that would be taken too far. For example I'm fine with +1T and not giving it to deathguard terminators who already have that plus disgustingly resilient (remember that's on the datasheet, not the chapter tactic which is also on the popular wish list of thing to give termies) and good weapons. If there needs to be a points adjustment between the units after then that's fine.

Plasma still needs an adjustment, like 1MW on unmodified 1s before rerolls that way elite models like captains, bikers, terminators etc can take them without being a worse liability than a lesser model. Paired with removing the 2nd damage from overcharging. Less risk less reward but still plenty deadly to marines and even threatening vehicles by a dozen cuts and making melta ok at its job by comparison.

Marines getting +1A is commonly considered helpful to make them worth their cost and function as generalists. I agree but don't think Terminators should get a 3rd attack, instead its a good excuse to reduce the difference in point cost. The 5+ invuln is also something I'm fine with ditching to reduce points if there is another defensive measure added (not sure about cataphracti, DG stuff is just so much better than other factions equivalent units).

I think the devs should be realizing that giving one model literally twice the power of 2 is less effective than just using 2 models, so maybe we'll see some price decrease coming up.

Yes. and on that note I should probably state that I'm coming from the perspective of Chaos Terminators, specifically World Eaters terminators. I know our stock load outs are a little different. I typically don't waste time on power fists, I just stick with power axes, I'm not sure if that's a luxury the loyalist variants have.

Realistically, I can see GW taking the path of least resistance on these changes. The quickest change I see would be to continue with points changes for models and their weaponry. I think they could hit multiple points including more generic stratagems (I really think we're going to see the Kill Team universal stratagems come to 40k) as this would blanket all the armies giving new options and shaking up the meta. At the end of the day, I suppose we could see a stat line change - after all, I'm pretty sure Possessed got an extra would with the Codex FAQ when it came out.

Have we seen any instances from FAQ's or the previous Chapter Approved where GW blatantly added new USR's or wargear on a dataslate - and I'm not talking modified existing data, I'm talking added new rules altogether?

Nah Possessed got the second wound with the codex. Possessed have their own issues of course.

 Galef wrote:

eternalxfl wrote:
The big problem imo with termies in 8th, is that awesome 2+ save isn't so awesome anymore when you realize that most everything has AP would very quickly chews away at what makes termies awesome.

Which is exactly why having a 1+ armour makes perfect sense and scales easily for all TEQs across all factions. 1s still fail, but having the extra little buffer helps when over 50% of the weapons being used have AP modifiers.
In previous editions, the AP system only allowed for a small handful of weapons to affect Termies, who still had a 5++ to fall back on (but only 1 wound, so they died a lot still). But now even Heavy Bolters turn Termies into MEQs
1+ amour is really the 2nd most obvious solution (a dramatic points decrease being the 1st most obvious)

And GW could make the change easily enough in CA by listing out the names of every datasheet that is a TEQ and saying to change their datasheet to reflect a 1+ armour save.

-

Awesome thing is, you wouldn't have to list out all the datasheets, its even easier than that. Every terminator armour based unit in the game that I've seen has the TERMINATOR keyword. So simply add a rule that applies to TERMINATOR datatsheets and hey presto. Kinda like how the FLY rule works currently

Spartacus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

eternalxfl wrote:
The big problem imo with termies in 8th, is that awesome 2+ save isn't so awesome anymore when you realize that most everything has AP would very quickly chews away at what makes termies awesome.

Which is exactly why having a 1+ armour makes perfect sense and scales easily for all TEQs across all factions. 1s still fail, but having the extra little buffer helps when over 50% of the weapons being used have AP modifiers.
In previous editions, the AP system only allowed for a small handful of weapons to affect Termies, who still had a 5++ to fall back on (but only 1 wound, so they died a lot still). But now even Heavy Bolters turn Termies into MEQs
1+ amour is really the 2nd most obvious solution (a dramatic points decrease being the 1st most obvious)

And GW could make the change easily enough in CA by listing out the names of every datasheet that is a TEQ and saying to change their datasheet to reflect a 1+ armour save.

-

Awesome thing is, you wouldn't have to list out all the datasheets, its even easier than that. Every terminator armour based unit in the game that I've seen has the TERMINATOR keyword. So simply add a rule that applies to TERMINATOR datatsheets and hey presto. Kinda like how the FLY rule works currently

Oh yeah, that would be cool.
But what about things like Obliterators, Mutilators, etc that are TEQs, but I don't think they the TERMINATOR keyword?
Arguably they do not need it as those particular examples already have a 3rd wound, but I am sure there are other examples.
Do any Custodes units that the TERMINATOR keyword? Maybe it would be good for them NOT to have the 1+ armour since they're already good and their armour is technically different

Man, now I really, really want this change to happen. It's literally and easy 1 line fix:
"All units with the TERMINATOR keyword have their armour save characteristic changed from 2+ to 1+"
Well, maybe 2 lines as I'm sure they'd need to "Note, rolls of 1 still fail"

-

Multilators could use some love, but first they 'd need to fix their model for them.

I'll post this again as I pretty much think this would solve most of their problems while giving them a decent niche as an anti tank infantry option with 4X S8 AP-2 damage D6 shots if they stood still with a 50 point cyclone missile launcher. Using the current points cost, they would be at point and utility parity with both devastators and aggressors, as they would have less total high AT shots and diversity than Devastators and a lower total volume of shots than Aggressors, but being significantly more durable and able to deepstrike. Keep in mind that with a Assault Cannon and the double fire ability, they are still a more expensive platform than a TwAC Razerback.

Oh yeah, that would be cool.
But what about things like Obliterators, Mutilators, etc that are TEQs, but I don't think they the TERMINATOR keyword?
Arguably they do not need it as those particular examples already have a 3rd wound, but I am sure there are other examples.
Do any Custodes units that the TERMINATOR keyword? Maybe it would be good for them NOT to have the 1+ armour since they're already good and their armour is technically different

Man, now I really, really want this change to happen. It's literally and easy 1 line fix:
"All units with the TERMINATOR keyword have their armour save characteristic changed from 2+ to 1+"
Well, maybe 2 lines as I'm sure they'd need to "Note, rolls of 1 still fail"

Yeah it would leave anything out that doesn't have the keyword, like Obilterators. But honestly I think thats a good thing. Good ol' fashioned Terminator armour needs something to differentiate them from being "just another 2+ save infantry squad". Being the absolute gold standard in durability again would do that, partly at least.

Obliterators are pretty decent right now anyway, and anything else which is similar but not keyworded TERMINATOR could just be sorted out case by case in erratas and CA. Again I think the beauty of this change is its simplicity - GW are obviously keen to make easy sweeping changes instead of detailed, granular changes, and this change does exactly that while also making use of their flash new keyword system, which Im sure they are happy to flaunt some more.

Custodes don't have the keyword, aside from Allarus Terminators which do (and need the same love that Marine Termies do).

Spartacus wrote:

Oh yeah, that would be cool.
But what about things like Obliterators, Mutilators, etc that are TEQs, but I don't think they the TERMINATOR keyword?
Arguably they do not need it as those particular examples already have a 3rd wound, but I am sure there are other examples.
Do any Custodes units that the TERMINATOR keyword? Maybe it would be good for them NOT to have the 1+ armour since they're already good and their armour is technically different

Man, now I really, really want this change to happen. It's literally and easy 1 line fix:
"All units with the TERMINATOR keyword have their armour save characteristic changed from 2+ to 1+"
Well, maybe 2 lines as I'm sure they'd need to "Note, rolls of 1 still fail"

Yeah it would leave anything out that doesn't have the keyword, like Obilterators. But honestly I think thats a good thing. Good ol' fashioned Terminator armour needs something to differentiate them from being "just another 2+ save infantry squad". Being the absolute gold standard in durability again would do that, partly at least.

Obliterators are pretty decent right now anyway, and anything else which is similar but not keyworded TERMINATOR could just be sorted out case by case in erratas and CA. Again I think the beauty of this change is its simplicity - GW are obviously keen to make easy sweeping changes instead of detailed, granular changes, and this change does exactly that while also making use of their flash new keyword system, which Im sure they are happy to flaunt some more.

Custodes don't have the keyword, aside from Allarus Terminators which do (and need the same love that Marine Termies do).

I would not agree that they should be the absolute Goldstandart in case of durability, that is something that should thematically lie with Nurgle Terminators, but a general durability and damage output buff or alteratively around a 10pts drop in price for each kind of terminator might do the trick aswell.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Give them back 3+ on 2D6.

Hell no. Hell no.

If for no other reason than that'd be tedious as all get-out to roll. Can you imagine taking, say, 10 wounds and having to roll each 2d6 separately? Every single time?

3+ roll 2D6 is really just 3+ re-roll failed saves.

When you do 10 2d fnp rolls for 1 W models you roll 10 D6 and then you re-roll any passed rolls. For the proposed Terminator change you roll 10D6 and re-roll any failed saves, while still having the option of re-rolling that second re-roll because it technically isn't a re-roll.

I'm not sure why Terminator need to be more than 25 pts including equipment? Even if you're playing a pure Terminator list you should be able to put some models on the table, things don't have to be 1-1 with the fluff, I get your Termies have to be elite, but that's still 6 Guardsmen worth of pts. Can we all agree that 25 pt Terminators are at least slightly OP? Okay, then let's find a value that fits. They're already twice as durable against bolters/lasguns compared to last edition which was what everyone was whining about then, they're equally tough against heavy bolters and lascannons compared to last edition because that's the sort of weapons that should be able to take them out. Now they need to get reduced a bit in cost and all the tournament units need to get upped a bit in points, repeat for a couple of years and they and every other unit will be balanced for the rest of time...

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spartacus wrote:

Oh yeah, that would be cool.
But what about things like Obliterators, Mutilators, etc that are TEQs, but I don't think they the TERMINATOR keyword?
Arguably they do not need it as those particular examples already have a 3rd wound, but I am sure there are other examples.
Do any Custodes units that the TERMINATOR keyword? Maybe it would be good for them NOT to have the 1+ armour since they're already good and their armour is technically different

Man, now I really, really want this change to happen. It's literally and easy 1 line fix:
"All units with the TERMINATOR keyword have their armour save characteristic changed from 2+ to 1+"
Well, maybe 2 lines as I'm sure they'd need to "Note, rolls of 1 still fail"

Yeah it would leave anything out that doesn't have the keyword, like Obilterators. But honestly I think thats a good thing. Good ol' fashioned Terminator armour needs something to differentiate them from being "just another 2+ save infantry squad". Being the absolute gold standard in durability again would do that, partly at least.

Obliterators are pretty decent right now anyway, and anything else which is similar but not keyworded TERMINATOR could just be sorted out case by case in erratas and CA. Again I think the beauty of this change is its simplicity - GW are obviously keen to make easy sweeping changes instead of detailed, granular changes, and this change does exactly that while also making use of their flash new keyword system, which Im sure they are happy to flaunt some more.

Custodes don't have the keyword, aside from Allarus Terminators which do (and need the same love that Marine Termies do).

I would not agree that they should be the absolute Goldstandart in case of durability, that is something that should thematically lie with Nurgle Terminators, but a general durability and damage output buff or alteratively around a 10pts drop in price for each kind of terminator might do the trick aswell.

I mean that Terminator Armour should be the gold standard (as it is so in the fluff), currently its not much more impressive than any of the multitude of other sources of 2+ saves available to Imperium and Chaos armies.

Nurgle Terminators have this keyword as well, so they would of course benefit from any sort of rules applied to it.

To be clear, I have no stakehold in Marine Terminators, I neither play with them nor against them regularly. But I certainly realize they need to be improved. The thing is, everything in the game wearing Terminator armour is in the same boat more or less, including characters. All I'm saying is that is far more effective (and likely to happen in a reasonable timeframe) if you apply some sort of rule change to the keyword, instead of mucking around with points/rules changes for individual datasheets. Theres no way that changing so many units one by one will be possible anytime soon going by GWs track record.

So lets take a look at weapons from the core rule book from 7th. (Mostly cause I don't wanna look though multiple codexes) They will be listed by 7thsAP/8thsAP



So here we have 40 weapons from the 7th Edition rule book laid out(Some may have been FAQ'd but I'm using whats printed). Eight of those weapons(using 7ths Ap system) Forced Terminators to use their invuln save, after the transition, 9 bump them to a 3+ Sv, 5 to a 4+ Sv, 12 force them to use their Invuln with 14 letting them use the 2+ save you pay for. Too be fair you could argue them being in cover to lump in the Ap-1 weapons too for 23 weapons that do not affect terminators.

Yes I understand that these are pretty much ALL IoM weapons so xenos weapons are up in the air since I don't personally own any of those and I'm not that devoted to this argument. But even Imperium weapons alone got better at dealing with terminators and xenos weapons are a little more potent in my opinion.

So I dunno, I personally don't think terminators are anymore durable. You cant say the extra wound makes them anymore durable now since all weapons in 7th did only 1 damage. But I feel like some information should be brought to the table beyond stating that they simply are more durable.

But hey if there's another chart that shows the info clearer than than my mangled list i'd like to see it, i'm genuinely curious.

You forgot how damage with those modifiers though. Almost all the -1AP weapons are D1, which is the same durability to those weapons. The wounding chart is also different which is an important point to remember. Even if Multilasers did D2 for whatever reason, Terminators would still be more durable because they're only wounded on a 3+ compared to a 2+.

 fraser1191 wrote:

So lets take a look at weapons from the core rule book from 7th. (Mostly cause I don't wanna look though multiple codexes) They will be listed by 7thsAP/8thsAP

Spoiler:

Auto Pistol -/-
autogun -/-
Punisher Gattling cannon -/-
Assault cannon 4/-1
Auto cannon 4/-1

Quad-gun 4/-1
Battle cannon 3/-2
bolt pistol 5/-
boltgun 5/-
Storm bolter 5/-

Heavy Bolter 4/-1
Vulcan Mega-bolter 3/-2
Hand flamer 6/-
flamer 5/-
dragons breath flamer 4/-1

flamespurt 4/-1
heavy flamer 4/-1
heat ray dispersed 4/-1
inferno cannon 4/-1
flamestorm cannon 3/-2

grav pistol 2/-3
gravgun 2/-3
grav cannon 2/-3
hot shot laspistol 3/-2
laspistol -/-

hot-shot lasgun 3/-2
lasgun -/-
multi-laser 6/-
lascannon 2/-3
icarus lascannon 2/-3

inferno pistol 1/-4
meltagun 1/-4
multi melta 1/-4
melta cannon 1/-4
plasma pistol 2/-3

plasma gun 2/-3
plasma cannon 2/-3
stub gun -/-
shotgun -/-
space marine shotgun -/-

So here we have 40 weapons from the 7th Edition rule book laid out(Some may have been FAQ'd but I'm using whats printed). Eight of those weapons(using 7ths Ap system) Forced Terminators to use their invuln save, after the transition, 9 bump them to a 3+ Sv, 5 to a 4+ Sv, 12 force them to use their Invuln with 14 letting them use the 2+ save you pay for. Too be fair you could argue them being in cover to lump in the Ap-1 weapons too for 23 weapons that do not affect terminators.

Yes I understand that these are pretty much ALL IoM weapons so xenos weapons are up in the air since I don't personally own any of those and I'm not that devoted to this argument. But even Imperium weapons alone got better at dealing with terminators and xenos weapons are a little more potent in my opinion.

So I dunno, I personally don't think terminators are anymore durable. You cant say the extra wound makes them anymore durable now since all weapons in 7th did only 1 damage. But I feel like some information should be brought to the table beyond stating that they simply are more durable.

But hey if there's another chart that shows the info clearer than than my mangled list i'd like to see it, i'm genuinely curious.

10 Heavy Bolters used to do 20 hits, 13 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds, killed two Terminators.

10 Heavy Bolters now do 20 hits, 13 wounds, 4 unsaved wounds, two dead terminators.

10 lascannons used to do 7 hits, 6 wounds, 4 unsaved wounds, killed four Terminators.

10 lascannons now do 7 hits, 6 wounds, 4 unsaved wounds, each Terminator now has a 1/6 chance of surviving that shot.

Plasmaguns now require something to re-roll ones if you don't want to lose all of them, if you don't have that available and you don't want to discard your plasma guns to do some damage then Terminators take less than half the number of casualties they used to.

Nobody complained last edition when Terminators got shot by lascannons, because if they're shooting Termies at least they're not shooting your tanks, but people just used weight of fire through regular boltguns to defeat them because a 2+ Sv is only twice as good as a 3+ and since Terminators cost more than twice the cost of a Marine they were actually more susceptible to boltguns than regular Marines were.

36 boltguns used to do 24 hits, 12 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds, 2 casualties.

36 boltguns now do 24 hits, 12 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds, 1 casualty.

Everything is working as intended Terminators are mini-Dreadnoughts, a little more vulnerable to anti-infantry, a little less susceptiple to anti-armour. Only problem is that they're too expensive compared to other options available to Imperium players.

Take a look at Celestine for example, she does pretty much the same thing Terminators do, if you could get three squads of Terminators for the cost of Celestine they'd be amazing, but one medium-size squad? Fail that 10" charge and you're looking at a turn 4 charge as your opponent calmly walks away from you until you can corner him, facing a skimmer army? Things get even worse.

One of the things SM do very well is aura buffs, as a Necron player that's what it looks like at least, I wish I had characters and buffs that good. Problem is that those buffs are almost never going to apply to Terminators. Another thing is Terminators never got to benefit from their buffs in the last CA because Deep Strike was hit by the nerfbat soon after.

I think Terminators should go from 40 pts all told to to 32 pts all told, I'm almost certain that's not going to break the game, depending on how many nerfs they deal out over the next couple of CAs they might eventually have to come down to 29 or even 25 if they decide to only buff units and never nerf anything.

T1 DS could work as well, it would make mass-Termie lists a lot more viable, I think just lowering their pts would see them used mainly as a one or two of as we saw with the list that used a unit of DG Terminators and won a tournament. It would also be a really easy thing to implement as others suggested a rule tied to the keyword making them more tough, just making units with the Terminator keyword ignore the deep strike beta rules would be super easy.

I mean that Terminator Armour should be the gold standard (as it is so in the fluff), currently its not much more impressive than any of the multitude of other sources of 2+ saves available to Imperium and Chaos armies.

Terminator is the gold standard for Imperium infantry but not for characters - that's artificer armour.

Forgive me if it already exists but would a battlefield teleport strategem be useful? Something like start of the movement phase, 1 CP move the squad to any point on the table 9" away from enemy models? If that was too good say something like roll a D6, on a 4+ the squad can then move as normal. (To make it not a dead cert of a charge.)

I still like 1+ save as well though. Terminators in a bunker or similar cover would be horrible to shoot out (0+ save in effect).

I think you bump everything up by 1T (including deathguard) and give everything with terminator keyword the following;

- -1 to wound rolls that target this unit (to 6+ max)
- reduce all damage by 1 to min of 1
- no penalties for unwieldy
- no consolidation after combat

bolt weapons now wound on 6s along with lasguns. plasma now wounds on a 4 even when overcharged and cant instakill. Nothing wounds on a 2+.

Benefit here is high strength and ap weaponry is still pretty effective, high damage weaponry is still pretty effective- as it should be, terminators arent meant to charge tanks and take volcano cannon shots to the chest- theyre meant to walk through small arms fire like its not there to reach an objective, thats what these rules enable; good luck dragging a squad of terminators down with las fire, you're gonna have to waste your big guns on them.

Plus unlike a few of the suggestions, this scales well and can be added to pretty much all terminator variants without conflicting with existing rules. and doesn't require all the faff with save modifiers.

Imagine a unit of Blightlords with these rules- they're not broken- but holy gak will it take some fire to get rid of them.