Switch Theme:

Why are you not playing AoS?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




I don't know if battle tome armies are that safe. Some people here played stormcasts, they are, I think, the marines of age of sigmar, and they had whole collections made no longer working or legal. Some dude was left with only the heros being worth taking after the switch, a ton of people here were very salty about it. And AoS ain't so popular here to begin with, so it didn't help.

Plus there is stuff some guys told me about AoS, some of the old armies are kept, even have rules, but GW didn't give points costs to the models. So suddenly they huge WFB collections, huge from my point of view, are worth nothing, because no one will play a game without points.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Far as I know the only full armies with nothing are Tomb Kings and Bretonnia - however some chunks of dwarves are also missing and likely a few others too.

That said Stormcast were certainly not destroyed as you say - yes they have reached a point where they are suffering bloat (stormcast have as many model listings as some whole grand alliances at present); which can result in some newer things being better than some old. But they've not legally lost a single model in their range; plus AoS doesn't have the same weapon setup that 40K has. They will never suffer something like what Tyranids do when GW can invalidate specific weapon model choices - the stormcast are still legal - perhaps some are not considered the top-tier in the meta any more - but they are still viable.
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




Well I don't play AoS, so I don't know what those two armies are, But I know dark elf players weren't happy about the last rules update.

As the SCE goes, I can not give specifics either. I know one guy had his army just stop working, as all units got a points hike and some rules were changed making the whole army concept stupid, and two other people had their armies just replaced by indentical but better options. In their own words, every non hero unit they had got worse, and most of them got replaced by better and more efficient new units. Now I don't know what armies they played, but like with everything people do not buy bad armies here, so it is not like they would lie.

I also know that a dwarf dude that had a huge army of orange dwarfs, had his army killed over night. One day it was a good army, another it stoped existing because of points and mechannics changes.

Stuff like that is bloody scary. No one wants to hear that there is a good chance that, unless they buy an army right after a rules shift, they may have 1 month max to buy the whole thing, if they want to get a few months of gaming in. And it is not like AoS is much cheaper then w40k, or cheaper at all.

No idea how AoS army costs go vs WFB army cost. Maybe WFB was so crazy high cost to entry that something like 700$ seems cheap. I mean when I hear that a stormcast army has to start with a 150$ dragon, followed by 6-7 boxs of infantry and 4-5 heros that each cost like a 2/3 of a box of infantry it seems rather high. But again WFB could have been higher, so people may feel like AoS is cheap, if they had to play under WFB rules.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

I think you're only hearing the views of the competitive end of the meta who are likely aiming for only one or two very specific power builds that they've focused on building.

Stormcast haven't lost any models, their armies are still 100% legal and playable. Now I will agree there has been some creep internally within their own battletome, but they've not invalidated their armies. Heck the dragon you mention is one of the earlier models in their range. And you don't need it to get started - only if you're building that specific build.


   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




Ah that makes so much more sense. You have a tournament powerlisting meta. Yes the powerlisting meta does change once or twice a year because GW releases a generals handbook which changes point values (which turns undercost OP units into overcost useless units and vice versa) and then an FAQ (which will change a rule or two and close OP loop holes that people build around) so the meta constantly changes.

If you are into tournament games and riding the most OP lists, you'll have to change your army on the regular.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 23:52:55


GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Indeed and it should be noted that often the "best meta list" isn't always the best. A lot can depend on the player as well and omany times a play has scored well and won with lists that are considered "not top" until they are proven in a competitive environment.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Elmir wrote:

My vampires usually have flying, and I do send them into combat, usually AFTER my skeletons hordes pin the enemy into place. You can only pile in to the closest enemy model, so learning how to do good placement is key with these guys. I seldom use a VL (without a zombie dragon) as the general though. I take the coven throne, VLoZD or mortarchs as generals, as the general really is a key figure in the army. But I wouldn't go out buying anything new and just see if AoS2 is more to your liking.


This is kind of my concern, to be honest. Even if I could afford to go out and buy one of the big models, they just don't appeal to me in the way the foot characters do.

If I was forced to pick one, I guess I'd go with the Coven Throne, as I've no interest in special characters and the dragon-mounted vampires just look goofy to me (the dragon is fine, but there's just something silly-looking about the way the vampire is sitting on it).


 Elmir wrote:

I do tend to use that to fly over to enemy support heroes, as vampires have a good shot at taking them out. Remember: in the charge phase, you get to roll 2D6 and wait how much you roll to decide what to charge... You do not have to declare a target beforehand. A good roll can turn these guys into really good assassins. My vampires are also not afraid to leg it out of there and make retreat moves if needed. But waiting until the grunts clamp down an enemy before engaging (making your VL more of a "scalpel" rather than a hammer) is my preferred method of using them. My vampires often find themselves in the middle of my own blocks of troops because of the flexibility that fly provides and it screens them well from enemy assassination attempts.


Okay, I'll bear that in mind.

 Elmir wrote:

Running a lighter "foot/horse" general with 5-6 wounds is always inherently dangerous as LoN, but... you can get more overlapping auras and more troop regeneration through it, so there is an upside. It can work, but shooting armies are it's Achilles heel.... Trying to make him survivable is going to be hard.


See, this is the sort of thing I was concerned about going into Age of Sigmar. It seems like the game is full of false-choice stuff - e.g. I can technically make any hero my general, but if I choose anything other than a 'centrepiece' model, it will just get blown to bits (because cannons and bows are apparently excellent sniper weapons).

 Elmir wrote:

And finally: yes, your troops can do a lot of heavy lifting in AoS2, where the heroes provide good support. It's not that black/white, but there are 2 very valid, powerfull ways to play LoN (both scoring top 10 spots at the latest facehammer GT btw):

A) Lots of smaller support heroes that buff your big block of troops, with a single strong character as general (VLoZD in his case). One list went in hard with a big block of 30 Grave Guard, 15 black knights and them some smaller units to fill in battlelines/cap objectives. He just speed buffed the cav/big block and just send them into suicide waves to grind opponents into the dust, while he kept regenning his own troops through his VLoZD who he played very conservatively

B) A full monster mash of insanely powerful vampires in a list that has: Neferrata, 2 VLoZD, 1 bloodseeker palanquin and 3x5 dogs (it's the royal court of Neferatta). No troops whatsoever to see you through, just 4 insanely strong vampires tossed in your opponents direction at frightening high speed and smash the enemies apart.

Legions of Nagash is an insanely versatile and fun book, without any new models and it should serve as an example for other armies that they want to "translate" from WHFB.


At least as far as heroes are concerned, I think we may disagree on what counts as 'insanely versatile'. It seems like my choice boils down to 'A vampire on a dragon' or 'A named vampire on a dragon'.

I'm probably just an old fuddy-duddy, but I really find myself missing the days when, if you had a vampire mounted on a dragon, the vampire was by far the more dangerous of the two.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




See, this is the sort of thing I was concerned about going into Age of Sigmar. It seems like the game is full of false-choice stuff - e.g. I can technically make any hero my general, but if I choose anything other than a 'centrepiece' model, it will just get blown to bits (because cannons and bows are apparently excellent sniper weapons).


Indeed. Foot heroes are typically trivial to kill. If your opponent wants them dead and has ranged attacks, it will be dead. Which is why you'll rarely see generals running about on foot, and the heroes that are on foot you'll see people take in duplicate or triplicate for redundancy so that it takes more than killing one to lose whatever buff they are built around.

A vampire on dragon or any character on the mount is not like the old days where it was blender lord vampire riding a 300 point flying bus to get him into contact. Its all one model now with all of its health and abilities and attacks wrapped up into one entity.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

auticus wrote:
Indeed. Foot heroes are typically trivial to kill. If your opponent wants them dead and has ranged attacks, it will be dead. Which is why you'll rarely see generals running about on foot, and the heroes that are on foot you'll see people take in duplicate or triplicate for redundancy so that it takes more than killing one to lose whatever buff they are built around.


As someone who loves his vampires on foot, that's rather disheartening to say the least..

It seems like my options are boiling down to: play a strong army that I have no interest in OR have an army I like the look of, but which is worthless on the table because my opponent can effortlessly snipe all my heroes until I'm left wit nothing but unsupported chaff.


auticus wrote:
A vampire on dragon or any character on the mount is not like the old days where it was blender lord vampire riding a 300 point flying bus to get him into contact. Its all one model now with all of its health and abilities and attacks wrapped up into one entity.


But what that actually means is that an infantry-sized vampire, standing behind a dozen ranks of infantry, can be effortlessly sniped if the enemy can see a square millimetre of his cloak; however, a vampire sitting fully-exposed on top of a dragon is somehow impossible to snipe without pouring in enough firepower to kill the entire dragon as well. It just seems like a really immersion-breaking and hamfisted way of forcing players to buy the big, fancy models.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

There are plenty of heroes and leaders which are not on big mounts which do perfectly fine in the game. Yes the enemy is going to snipe for them, some of those single standing heroes have good health and armour and can be as tough as mounted ones.

But in general the enemy is going to snipe for anything powerful that they can hit. AoS runs with more terrain than fantasy of old so there should be more line of sight blocking terrain on the table and have it a bit denser too. Because you no longer have formation movement the terrain can be more detailed because now you've not got to factor in having to wheel and turn every unit that isn't a monster or hero.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Overread wrote:
There are plenty of heroes and leaders which are not on big mounts which do perfectly fine in the game.


Okay...

So are any of them in the army actually I want to play? Or are you arguing that there are good foot-heroes in the game somewhere, not in the army I'm actually using?


 Overread wrote:
some of those single standing heroes have good health and armour and can be as tough as mounted ones.


Oh, wonderful. So as I look at the foot-vampire models I spent hours painting, which have now been reduced to Goths with brittle bone disease, I can at least take solace in the fact that other armies have it better.


 Overread wrote:

But in general the enemy is going to snipe for anything powerful that they can hit. AoS runs with more terrain than fantasy of old so there should be more line of sight blocking terrain on the table and have it a bit denser too. Because you no longer have formation movement the terrain can be more detailed because now you've not got to factor in having to wheel and turn every unit that isn't a monster or hero.


Joy.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Well people sniped for leaders in fantasy too - any time the enemy can kill a key unit or model they are going to go for it no matter the game - that's just strategy games.

As for vampire specifics I can't say since I don't play them, but perhaps read:
https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/18228-aos-2-flesh-eater-courts-discussion/

https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/18232-aos-2-soulblight-discussion/

Those might give you more pointers and direction specific to the undead vampire groups; perhaps even post over there with your concerns and ideas for more specific vampire related feedback. Of course Flesh Eater Courts are more popular as they've got a battletome and are thus more current (ergo more posts).
   
Made in es
Inspiring Icon Bearer




 Overread wrote:
Well people sniped for leaders in fantasy too - any time the enemy can kill a key unit or model they are going to go for it no matter the game - that's just strategy games.


Only with very specific spells and oddities like HLR.

Other than that a ward save on top of a 2+ look out sir meant leaders were safe until engaged in combat.

Actually with non-vampire characters you generally didn't bother with a ward save at all.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Overread wrote:
Well people sniped for leaders in fantasy too - any time the enemy can kill a key unit or model they are going to go for it no matter the game - that's just strategy games.


They did, but at least in old Fantasy Vampires were actually tough. They had good stats (important for resisting most sniping spells), could easily get a 3+/4++ save, and most effects that could potentially snipe them could be deflected to a member of their unit on a 2+ (with Look Out Sir).

Now, toughness is no longer a thing, and their wounds and save are both pitiful.

Also, I'm not denying the strategic value in sniping enemy characters. I'm saying that the ease with which it is possible is utterly ridiculous. Even if we ignore the fact that vampires now have bones made of crackers, imagine trying to snipe someone - who you can barely even see - through a crowd of people. It would be nigh impossible even for a trained sniper using a modern rifle, yet apparently even the lowliest footsoldier in AoS is able to do this with bows and cannons. Unless the character in question is sitting on a dragon in plain sight, at which point their magic sniping skills evaporate entirely.


 Overread wrote:

As for vampire specifics I can't say since I don't play them, but perhaps read:
https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/18228-aos-2-flesh-eater-courts-discussion/

https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/18232-aos-2-soulblight-discussion/

Those might give you more pointers and direction specific to the undead vampire groups; perhaps even post over there with your concerns and ideas for more specific vampire related feedback. Of course Flesh Eater Courts are more popular as they've got a battletome and are thus more current (ergo more posts).


Cheers, I'll give those a look.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




I'd say the biggest issue with foot troops is simply that true line of sight makes it impossible to hide them or give them cover behind screens of troops, which is what you'd do in other games.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in be
Raging Rat Ogre






Again, try having a game with your general with that magic item that gives your opponent another -1 to hit.

If you are at -2 to hit, you typically needn't worry about the shooting that much anymore. It's not like it'll be impossible to kill him, but if your opponents are shooting at -2, the effectiveness takes such a nosedive, that they are typically overextending to remove a 140p model from the table. Also, any shooting that has cool effects on a 6+ roll, can never trigger on a character who's standing next to a unit as well. That alone made a huge difference in "small hero survivability".

And to come back to Auticus' last point: if LoN was able to make their small heroes "untargetable" reliably, the army (and quite a few other characters in the game) would be BROKEN AF. My opponents weep enough as it is when I nullify a full turn of damage through my resurrection abilities.

Do not fall for the internet trap that something (or even a full list) is either useless or the best thing evah! Running lots of foot vampires has it's upsides, for sure! But it might not be the best army in the meta to go crack skulls with. I'm just trying to be real here and be nuanced in how I approach things.

Ask yourself what you want out of your gaming experience:

A) A relax game that you could play for free (you got tons of models for it after all) and will be able to hold it's own just fine against quite a few lists out there. You'll be absolutely fine in most games unless you constantly end up against hardcore top-tier lists... (That's also a problem you could have that is not exclusive to AoS btw, this is true for any "nerd game" that has a competitive edge to it).


B) Chase the absolute top tier lists in competitive meta. Don't bother with this option if you aren't willing to completely revise your list (and buy new stuff) every 6 months to stay ahead of the curve... Somebody already explained how GHB works right now.

A footsoldier vampire lists could definitely work, but probably not if your aim is to mix with the type B crowd.

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




Very accurate assessment!

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

If my 100% Khorne Warherd army can work in a casual meta sprlinked with some competitive lists (Seraphon, the new SC Chamber, Freeguild spamming the guys with the guns, etc...), a Legion of Nagash army with a couple of vampires on foot can work too.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Elmir wrote:
Again, try having a game with your general with that magic item that gives your opponent another -1 to hit.

If you are at -2 to hit, you typically needn't worry about the shooting that much anymore. It's not like it'll be impossible to kill him, but if your opponents are shooting at -2, the effectiveness takes such a nosedive, that they are typically overextending to remove a 140p model from the table.


But, unless I'm missing something, that item only protects one character. Won't my opponent just snipe the other 4 instead?

Also, this comes back to my issue of false choice. Supposedly there are a few dozen artefacts to choose from. However, the moment I choose one that looks fun (in this case the Terrorgheist Mantle), the game might as well sound a buzzer and shout 'NIRRRR, wrong option. Choose again.'

 Elmir wrote:
Also, any shooting that has cool effects on a 6+ roll, can never trigger on a character who's standing next to a unit as well. That alone made a huge difference in "small hero survivability".


I'll have to take your word for it.

 Elmir wrote:

And to come back to Auticus' last point: if LoN was able to make their small heroes "untargetable" reliably, the army (and quite a few other characters in the game) would be BROKEN AF. My opponents weep enough as it is when I nullify a full turn of damage through my resurrection abilities.


I'm not asking that they be untargettable. I'm saying that bows and cannons shouldn't be significantly better at sniping than modern sniper rifles.

 Elmir wrote:

Do not fall for the internet trap that something (or even a full list) is either useless or the best thing evah! Running lots of foot vampires has it's upsides, for sure! But it might not be the best army in the meta to go crack skulls with. I'm just trying to be real here and be nuanced in how I approach things.


I get that, but I'm also trying to be pragmatic about Age of Sigmar. I've already been forced to cut about 1/3 of my army altogether, it would be nice if I could have something left that I might actually enjoy playing. Yet at every turn it feels like I'm forced to choose between options that are fun and options that are functional.

 Elmir wrote:

Ask yourself what you want out of your gaming experience:

A) A relax game that you could play for free (you got tons of models for it after all) and will be able to hold it's own just fine against quite a few lists out there. You'll be absolutely fine in most games unless you constantly end up against hardcore top-tier lists... (That's also a problem you could have that is not exclusive to AoS btw, this is true for any "nerd game" that has a competitive edge to it).


B) Chase the absolute top tier lists in competitive meta. Don't bother with this option if you aren't willing to completely revise your list (and buy new stuff) every 6 months to stay ahead of the curve... Somebody already explained how GHB works right now.

A footsoldier vampire lists could definitely work, but probably not if your aim is to mix with the type B crowd.


Well, 'A' would probably be ideal. But this is the thing - I don't get to dictate the meta. If my group happens to like playing more competitive lists, then I'll have to do the same or accept that every game is a guaranteed loss before either of us have even deployed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/10 19:08:25


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




Well, 'A' would probably be ideal. But this is the thing - I don't get to dictate the meta. If my group happens to like playing more competitive lists, then I'll have to do the same or accept that every game is a guaranteed loss before either of us have even deployed.


This is the basis of a lot of what I post that are complaints about the game. Indeed like whfb before it, and 40k has always been, the game is a minefield of false choices.

The degree of which will depend entirely on your group. If they are not running competitive lists, you have more viable choices. If they want to run powerlists, your selection of viable combinations is drastically smaller and basically writes itself for you regardless of if you like the models or not.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




auticus wrote:
Ah that makes so much more sense. You have a tournament powerlisting meta. Yes the powerlisting meta does change once or twice a year because GW releases a generals handbook which changes point values (which turns undercost OP units into overcost useless units and vice versa) and then an FAQ (which will change a rule or two and close OP loop holes that people build around) so the meta constantly changes.

If you are into tournament games and riding the most OP lists, you'll have to change your army on the regular.


But from what I understand, some armies are like w40k ones, so they have one build. And if that gets nerfed the whole faction stops being playable. The dwarf player here had that problem, from what I understand, his army went up in points by a lot, and there is no cheap version of his army, plus he is missing out of some mechanics he tried to explain to me, but I don't fully get. It was like summoning units, that had models, but the models don't have stats and work like spells etc.

My brothers friend played a non tournament army of stormcasts.His army wasn't good before the new edition, but the new edition made his army even worse. He can't get in to melee from deep strike like he could before, a bit like BA in w40k, and his main unit got points hikes, no speed buffs and there exists a new unit that is cheaper, better, cast spells and I think have better stats. Although he may be over reacting with how good the new stuff is. But I don't think he lies, he really was upset when the new rules came.


How big is the gap between different faction casual lists in AoS. Is the gap huge, like in w40k. Where a casual eldar army can beat other factions tournament armies. Or is the power curve more flat?
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




You're going to get different answers from different people.

The tournament powerlister guys I run into all claim the game is in a great place right now because at the top end of the powerlisting scale, there is more diversity in AOS than whfb ever had (or 40k). And I agree that that is true.

But the powerlister builds are still only a tiny fraction of what you could see in the game, and there is an awful lot of unviable models and builds in the game, particularly when you have folks that won't tone down in your group. So while the power meta is a bit more diverse than whfb was, the casual lists still get smacked around with no effort by those lists, and if you aren't powerlisting with the powerlisters you aren't going to have a fun game (unless you don't mind who wins or loses and just want to push models and roll dice). The chasm between power list and casual list is pretty wide.

In 40k, a casual eldar list was still basically an optimized tournament list.

In AOS, any list that isn't pushing out 30-40 mortal wounds a turn, or a list that isn't summoning 600-1000 free points a game I would consider "casual". (you will also see hybrids of those two pillars, where they may only be pushing 25 mortal wounds which is lower than most optimized armies but also they summon 500 points, so its still keeping a competitive edge)

In that regards, if two armies meet that aren't doing the above, I think they can have a fairly ok game. The legacy armies (those being the armies that are models from whfb that have not yet had any updates) are hurting because they trend towards overcosted for what they can do.

When we say some armies only have one build, what we are talking about is that in reality they have many builds, but only one power build that can run amuk at tournaments. The slayer player indeed had his power build turned into a more casual build.

There are players that can do with casual builds in a hyper competitive environment still. Its just a lot more difficult to do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/10 21:16:07


GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






I think distilling down competitive armies to JUST mortal wounds and summoning is a bit much. Those are very strong trends, but there are army builds that are competitive while not being top tier--competitive enough to be crushing an average list and to hit top 25% at a tournament. Such builds are based around options that are simply wildly OP for the cost rather than fitting into a summoning or MW niche. Beastclaw raiders come to mind. A notable factor on them in particular is the MW count may be low per turn but the placement of them is so precise that it is disproportionately effective.

Sidenote: LoN do have a viable foot character general in the necromancer since he can bounce wounds to a nearby unit. Not much consolation I know, but it is something. Also the vampire does have a blood chalice ('option' that you are paying points for anyways) so is more durable than many foot characters. Slap him in cover and he will be pretty resilient against shooting.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in au
Gnawing Giant Rat



Regional Queensland

As an old whfb player with limited funds the decision to swap to Aos has been a hard one but finding other whfb players is near impossible and AoS is not much better so the question of being under powered is irrelevant when there is not much in the way of local players.

Much of my army is made up of metal 4th edition models which is going to need a lot of big purchases to be even remotely be competitive.

Kill - Kill Man things.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/765131.page 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




To answer the original question, I think my biggest practical issue with AoS is the same as with 40k, it's a mass-battle game with individually based models. Just doesn't make sense to me to be moving up to hundreds of models each turn individually, instead of making regiment/unit basing a part of the rules.
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Another good point that has been brought up: Character sniping, and customisation.
In WHFB Warlord Skrittclaw, my Skaven general, could have a 2+/4++ save, with a successful armour save inflicting damage on enemy models in melee with him. He rode a Ratogre Bonebreaker and cleaved through armour with his Warpstone Blade. The only sniping he feared where cannons (but then again that was 8th nonsense). Under him where numerous clan chieftans, and his 'loyal' banner bearer Mortkin, carrying the Sacred banner of the Great Horned Rat and inspiring the other Skaven around him into a religious frenzy.
In AoS Skrittclaw is a bog standard Warlord with a Warpstone blade. No magic armour, no ratogre mount, no ward save. Not only is he now as generic as they come, he is also incredibly vulnerable to sniping thanks to the "if I can see one tiny bit of your characters bannerpole I can snipe him even through a few hundred clanrats". Furthermore he is now no different from Clanbanner Mordkin, bar appearance and possibly weapon.

This is a joke. Character customisation has gone and now any character not on a giant beast or chariot (or who is not a monster themselves) is dead on arrival. My only other option as a Skaven player is to invest in a Verminlord kit (expensive) or use my Grey Seer on his Screaming Bell, neither of which is fluffy for my clan.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Major General





Florence, KY

 master of ordinance wrote:
In AoS Skrittclaw is a bog standard Warlord with a Warpstone blade. No magic armour, no ratogre mount, no ward save. Not only is he now as generic as they come, he is also incredibly vulnerable to sniping thanks to the "if I can see one tiny bit of your characters bannerpole I can snipe him even through a few hundred clanrats".

Have you read the 2nd edition rules?

LOOK OUT, SIR!

You must subtract 1 from hit rolls made for missile weapons if the target of the attack is an enemy HERO that is within 3" of an enemy unit that has 3 or more models. The Look Out, Sir! rule does not apply if the target HERO is a MONSTER.

Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/12 02:22:58


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






As a gamer who played a lot of GW from the mid-90's to the early 2000's, I took a lengthy break - coming back to 40K for 8th edition. Finally have the resources, time and skill to do armies justice.

I considered Warhammer Fantasy, but the lore/background/aesthetic is gone for me. Shame too, since I listen to podcasts which discuss it and the game rules sound fine - 8th edition 40K is plenty entertaining, etc. However the nature of the armies, the aesthetics of the models and new ranges (for the most part) have absolutely lost me. This is something GW won't be changing anytime soon so I don't really have to worry about it. Did they lose a customer? Sure, but that's due to personal preference. If I was desperate I could take a look at LOTR etc.

I was always far more interested in a more classical fantasy genre, and world. The Old World was arguably the best part of Warhammer Fantasy proper, without that story/reality/lore...I can't find any interest. I've had numerous people ask me to start AoS but I simply can't - I've no interest in seeing 90% of the AoS models across the table from me.

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Ghaz wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
In AoS Skrittclaw is a bog standard Warlord with a Warpstone blade. No magic armour, no ratogre mount, no ward save. Not only is he now as generic as they come, he is also incredibly vulnerable to sniping thanks to the "if I can see one tiny bit of your characters bannerpole I can snipe him even through a few hundred clanrats".

Have you read the 2nd edition rules?

LOOK OUT, SIR!

You must subtract 1 from hit rolls made for missile weapons if the target of the attack is an enemy HERO that is within 3" of an enemy unit that has 3 or more models. The Look Out, Sir! rule does not apply if the target HERO is a MONSTER.

Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.


How does that prevent sniping? Its only -1 to hit. If you throw enough dice at it, it will die.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/12 10:29:32


What I have
LM
What I like stomping


Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Ghaz wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
In AoS Skrittclaw is a bog standard Warlord with a Warpstone blade. No magic armour, no ratogre mount, no ward save. Not only is he now as generic as they come, he is also incredibly vulnerable to sniping thanks to the "if I can see one tiny bit of your characters bannerpole I can snipe him even through a few hundred clanrats".

Have you read the 2nd edition rules?

LOOK OUT, SIR!

You must subtract 1 from hit rolls made for missile weapons if the target of the attack is an enemy HERO that is within 3" of an enemy unit that has 3 or more models. The Look Out, Sir! rule does not apply if the target HERO is a MONSTER.

Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.


Except that a -1 penalty to hit is absolutely pathetic. Especially when most characters have a mere handful of wounds and are armoured with paper mache.

Again, we're talking about basic grunts making shots that would embarrass a professional sniper using a modern rifle. And they're supposedly doing this with bows and arrows.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
 
Forum Index » AoS General Discussion & Background
Go to: