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Largely illegal and unreliable within the Imperium. Impossible to use on many planets due to technological constrain
Magic fertility drugs?
Perhapse, but that doesn't explain why people would universaly want dozens of children and how a post-industrial country could deal with so many kids without collapsing on itself
People got VERY bored on spaceships?
Considering that ships have a limited amount of air, space, water and food. That could be suicide.
I’m not meaning to be pissy. Just commenting on a topic dear to my heart. The difference between the clans and a tribe isn’t just a word as I say. The entire idea of any galaxy wide spanning system with any uniformity is a bit out there weather it’s orks or not. The imperium makes as little sense.
As for the breading issue it’s just a matter of filling out the faction. The fungus thing makes them more alien rather than just big green space chimps. It also explains how they get from one planet to another more easily.
The fungus thing in the early days went deeper than just food. Where ever ORKS went so did it fungus. They used it for food, fuel and building materials. They had algae in there blood. That aided with healing and toughness. And snotlings used to regress mushrooms too. It’s always been more than food.
epronovost wrote:Here's a thing I find a bit dumb about the 40K univers, but really pretty much all science fiction setting suffer from that problem. How the hell could humanity reproduce so fast in a post-industrial age to get to the number of humans that exist? It's even more absurd if you take into consideration that in 40K many world like feral, feudal and even underhives certainly have a staggering level of child death and childbirth death.
I share a similar(ish) gripe with galaxy spanning sci-fi, in that I always feel like the expanse of the territory normally covered ends up being so absurd. Rather than say focus on the expansion of an empire over say one of the galatic arms, it ends up spanning virtually the entire thing and inevitably the scale ends up kind of out of whack.
I'm not sure if we're getting into the minefield of 'fluff represented in the crunch' in which case Space Marines are the obvious flashing light of WTF, but reading back through the old Codex Imperialis today I was struck by this quote which I'd forgotten; "Orks are the best natural warriors in the galaxy because they are tough and aggressive, but mostly because they actually enjoy fighting. As Orks feel very little pain they can sustain serious wounds without a flinch. Their bodies will readily accept the most crude transplants and prosthetics and serious battle injuries don't bother them much". Compare that to the crunch (WS3, T4, 1 wound). Or that under the entry for Gretchin they're described as "smaller than orks and nowhere near as strong..." yet they're both strength 3, same as a normal human.
There's a part of me that's wondered whether they ever read that sort of thing back to themselves and then considered editing it, given the disparity between fluff and crunch.
If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB
Yeah Orks shed spores like we shed dead skin, each of which can grow to be another Ork if conditions are right.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Andykp wrote: The fungus thing in the early days went deeper than just food. Where ever ORKS went so did it fungus. They used it for food, fuel and building materials. They had algae in there blood. That aided with healing and toughness. And snotlings used to regress mushrooms too. It’s always been more than food.
The algae in the blood thing yeah, but I honestly can't remember the fungus being used as fuel or building material, though now we're really getting into the obscure of Ork mythos. Breeding wise, I just think it was probably better left unspoken...
If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB
Andykp wrote: The fungus thing in the early days went deeper than just food. Where ever ORKS went so did it fungus. They used it for food, fuel and building materials. They had algae in there blood. That aided with healing and toughness. And snotlings used to regress mushrooms too. It’s always been more than food.
The algae in the blood thing yeah, but I honestly can't remember the fungus being used as fuel or building material, though now we're really getting into the obscure of Ork mythos. Breeding wise, I just think it was probably better left unspoken...
The orks make sense from a certain POV. If you accept the old ones had the technology to create them and were desperate for a pure warrior species to fight the necrons then their whole structure makes sense.
The fact they carry a functional ecosystem with them that supports them logistic ally, have built in knowledge, a collective mentality, etc, makes them a self sustaining fighting force. A permatural motion war machine in a sense.
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
epronovost wrote: Here's a thing I find a bit dumb about the 40K univers, but really pretty much all science fiction setting suffer from that problem. How the hell could humanity reproduce so fast in a post-industrial age to get to the number of humans that exist? It's even more absurd if you take into consideration that in 40K many world like feral, feudal and even underhives certainly have a staggering level of child death and childbirth death.
I like to think that rather than being entirely encoded in their DNA, much of an odd boyz knowwhats comes from waaaghkipedia from the green space of the warp.
When GORK (or possibly Mork) induces a divine vision of technology or whatever, the information may be coming from the collective consciousness of all orks/meks rather than exclusively from the genes.
nareik wrote: I like to think that rather than being entirely encoded in their DNA, much of an odd boyz knowwhats comes from waaaghkipedia from the green space of the warp.
When GORK (or possibly Mork) induces a divine vision of technology or whatever, the information may be coming from the collective consciousness of all orks/meks rather than exclusively from the genes.
So like psychically transmitted information, sucked from each Ork into and gradually sent across the galaxy, triggering "lightbulb" moments in other Orks? 'Cause that sounds a lot more fun than the DNA idea.
If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB
I still don’t the problem with the dna coding thing. ORKS being engineered is a fundamental part of their fluff and makes much more sense than them all drinking from some warp soup rubbish and all feeding of magic ORK knowledge in the warp. Current research suggests that acquired knowledge and traits are passed on genetically by the sperm and eggs being altered after creation. So it isn’t a stretch for a bioengineered species to pass on knowledge genetically. It happen in real life. Why not with ORKS.
epronovost wrote: Here's a thing I find a bit dumb about the 40K univers, but really pretty much all science fiction setting suffer from that problem. How the hell could humanity reproduce so fast in a post-industrial age to get to the number of humans that exist? It's even more absurd if you take into consideration that in 40K many world like feral, feudal and even underhives certainly have a staggering level of child death and childbirth death.
What make you believe that DAoT humankind had the same behaviour as our current West ?
In thousands of years, maybe women will have 12 babies. Maybe there will be lebensborn etc
In France there are great helps for people that have kids, so people have more kids than in the rest of Europe.
And maybe cloning was a thing. Now in the Imperium I don't see why hive city people would not do lots of kids, they have nothing better to do and probably no access to contraceptive ? It is in the interest of the Imperium to have a lot of people.
If I was a galaxy spawning state, I am sure I would have an interest in having my people having babies.
Well if you consider how rapidly the human race is multiplying now, on this planet. Its quite feasible that could expand into space in that sense. Add in rejuvenat stuff that makes people live longer and you have even more capacity for lots of humans
epronovost wrote: Here's a thing I find a bit dumb about the 40K univers, but really pretty much all science fiction setting suffer from that problem. How the hell could humanity reproduce so fast in a post-industrial age to get to the number of humans that exist? It's even more absurd if you take into consideration that in 40K many world like feral, feudal and even underhives certainly have a staggering level of child death and childbirth death.
What make you believe that DAoT humankind had the same behaviour as our current West ?
In thousands of years, maybe women will have 12 babies. Maybe there will be lebensborn etc
In France there are great helps for people that have kids, so people have more kids than in the rest of Europe.
And maybe cloning was a thing. Now in the Imperium I don't see why hive city people would not do lots of kids, they have nothing better to do and probably no access to contraceptive ? It is in the interest of the Imperium to have a lot of people.
If I was a galaxy spawning state, I am sure I would have an interest in having my people having babies.
Dark age of technology my friends: The poorer and less civilized a society get's the more children are born. Imagine now a species that spread allready to some systems and get's completely fethed over, ergo drops in societal development.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
epronovost wrote: Here's a thing I find a bit dumb about the 40K univers, but really pretty much all science fiction setting suffer from that problem. How the hell could humanity reproduce so fast in a post-industrial age to get to the number of humans that exist? It's even more absurd if you take into consideration that in 40K many world like feral, feudal and even underhives certainly have a staggering level of child death and childbirth death.
What make you believe that DAoT humankind had the same behaviour as our current West ?
In thousands of years, maybe women will have 12 babies. Maybe there will be lebensborn etc
In France there are great helps for people that have kids, so people have more kids than in the rest of Europe.
And maybe cloning was a thing. Now in the Imperium I don't see why hive city people would not do lots of kids, they have nothing better to do and probably no access to contraceptive ? It is in the interest of the Imperium to have a lot of people.
If I was a galaxy spawning state, I am sure I would have an interest in having my people having babies.
Dark age of technology my friends: The poorer and less civilized a society get's the more children are born. Imagine now a species that spread allready to some systems and get's completely fethed over, ergo drops in societal development.
Plus the sheer time involved, and compounded growth.
Let's assume a stupid-small growth rate - 1.1 per generation is the native growth rate of the Netherlands. Let's use a generation as ~ 30 years, balancing out juvenat tech on high tech civilised worlds with shorter generations on the frontiers.
Start with one million (1,000,000) people - a decent but not insane starting commitment for an offworld colony that's supposed to be self-supporting indefinitely and not getting immigrants
Gen #1 - 1,000,000
Gen #5 - 1,464,100 - about 1.5 million after a century
Gen #11 - 2,593,742 - three hundred years in, you've got 2.5 million
Gen #18 - 5,054,470 - half a millenium, and you've got 5 million
Gen #35 - 25,547,669 - first millenium mark, and we're at 25 million
Gen #68 - 593,348,577 - second millenium, and that's over half a billion people
Gen #101 - 13,780,612,340 - 13 billion people after three thousand years - not hive world level but more than contemporary earth
Gen #168 - 8,176,710,000,000 - five millenia of slow but steady growth and we're at 8 trillion people
Gen #335 - 66,858,500,000,000,000,000 - ten millenia - the length of the 'safe & stable' Dark Age of technology before the age of strife kicks off - and those million colonists have a faintly ridiculous 66 quintillion descendents, enough for 267 million inhabitants for every star system in the milky way!
epronovost wrote: Here's a thing I find a bit dumb about the 40K univers, but really pretty much all science fiction setting suffer from that problem. How the hell could humanity reproduce so fast in a post-industrial age to get to the number of humans that exist? It's even more absurd if you take into consideration that in 40K many world like feral, feudal and even underhives certainly have a staggering level of child death and childbirth death.
What make you believe that DAoT humankind had the same behaviour as our current West ?
In thousands of years, maybe women will have 12 babies. Maybe there will be lebensborn etc
In France there are great helps for people that have kids, so people have more kids than in the rest of Europe.
And maybe cloning was a thing. Now in the Imperium I don't see why hive city people would not do lots of kids, they have nothing better to do and probably no access to contraceptive ? It is in the interest of the Imperium to have a lot of people.
If I was a galaxy spawning state, I am sure I would have an interest in having my people having babies.
Dark age of technology my friends: The poorer and less civilized a society get's the more children are born. Imagine now a species that spread allready to some systems and get's completely fethed over, ergo drops in societal development.
Plus the sheer time involved, and compounded growth.
Let's assume a stupid-small growth rate - 1.1 per generation is the native growth rate of the Netherlands. Let's use a generation as ~ 30 years, balancing out juvenat tech on high tech civilised worlds with shorter generations on the frontiers.
Start with one million (1,000,000) people - a decent but not insane starting commitment for an offworld colony that's supposed to be self-supporting indefinitely and not getting immigrants
Gen #1 - 1,000,000
Gen #5 - 1,464,100 - about 1.5 million after a century
Gen #11 - 2,593,742 - three hundred years in, you've got 2.5 million
Gen #18 - 5,054,470 - half a millenium, and you've got 5 million
Gen #35 - 25,547,669 - first millenium mark, and we're at 25 million
Gen #68 - 593,348,577 - second millenium, and that's over half a billion people
Gen #101 - 13,780,612,340 - 13 billion people after three thousand years - not hive world level but more than contemporary earth
Gen #168 - 8,176,710,000,000 - five millenia of slow but steady growth and we're at 8 trillion people
Gen #335 - 66,858,500,000,000,000,000 - ten millenia - the length of the 'safe & stable' Dark Age of technology before the age of strife kicks off - and those million colonists have a faintly ridiculous 66 quintillion descendents, enough for 267 million inhabitants for every star system in the milky way!
The warp idea would actually work ok for Orks, as mekboyz really only begin to start making larger and more complex inventions after there is a certain "critical mass" of Orks, same as how Orks start out feral, and after enough of them they begin to make guns and such. So maybe when there are that many Orks they begin operating as a "receiver" for warp-based psychic signals.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Gen #1 - 1,000,000
Gen #5 - 1,464,100 - about 1.5 million after a century
Gen #11 - 2,593,742 - three hundred years in, you've got 2.5 million
Gen #18 - 5,054,470 - half a millenium, and you've got 5 million
Gen #35 - 25,547,669 - first millenium mark, and we're at 25 million
Gen #68 - 593,348,577 - second millenium, and that's over half a billion people
Gen #101 - 13,780,612,340 - 13 billion people after three thousand years - not hive world level but more than contemporary earth
Gen #168 - 8,176,710,000,000 - five millenia of slow but steady growth and we're at 8 trillion people
Gen #335 - 66,858,500,000,000,000,000 - ten millenia - the length of the 'safe & stable' Dark Age of technology before the age of strife kicks off - and those million colonists have a faintly ridiculous 66 quintillion descendents, enough for 267 million inhabitants for every star system in the milky way!
This is assuming no sudden population declines from events like wars, famines, or plagues. Also, birth rates tend to be higher when the populations are low (I can easily see ~10 children per family on a newly colonized world being the norm) and are lower when the populations are high and there is less room. But, overall a fairly good analysis that shows the power of exponential growth.
This is assuming no sudden population declines from events like wars, famines, or plagues. Also, birth rates tend to be higher when the populations are low (I can easily see ~10 children per family on a newly colonized world being the norm) and are lower when the populations are high and there is less room. But, overall a fairly good analysis that shows the power of exponential growth.
Newly colonised world might not have access to medical facilities and personel required for an average of 10 living children per family. If a new colony doesn't have a regular influx of colonists from a developped world, htey will suffer an important technological collapse as they simply don't have the infrastuctures to support it. You got to remember that before the industrial age, about 30% of women died in childbirth and had on average 10 to 12 pregnancies of which only 2 to 4 children would reach adult age and have children themselves and this condition put the majority of women out of the higher fields of the workforce which prevents or slows down tremendusouly technological development and largely prevents the creation of an advanced economy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/01 18:08:03
I hate the dying race of Eldar lore. I disagree with it in Tolkien’s work as well. Longer living beings should have larger populations not smaller populations.
If every generation of your family was alive would more or less people be around? Cataclysmic events blah blah blah but longer living beings should still have very large populations.
Jjohnso11 wrote: I hate the dying race of Eldar lore. I disagree with it in Tolkien’s work as well. Longer living beings should have larger populations not smaller populations.
If every generation of your family was alive would more or less people be around? Cataclysmic events blah blah blah but longer living beings should still have very large populations.
No they don't. Longer living beings with a quality civilization would have their birthrate level out or shrink due to the quality of life and length of life reducing the impulse to reproduce. This is what almost the entire First World is going through right now, with Japan getting the worst of it as their population declines by a literal million over a year. Nevermind you seemed to have missed something rather important about high literature if you think something as petty as demographics is why Elves should be everywhere on Arda.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
You're equating eldar to humans... If the Japanese didn't die a million a year to old age would their population shrink or increase every year?
Oh and they have the technology to prevent disease and we don't know if they can continue to reproduce later on in life if needed. And their childbirth death rates are probably zero.
This is assuming no sudden population declines from events like wars, famines, or plagues. Also, birth rates tend to be higher when the populations are low (I can easily see ~10 children per family on a newly colonized world being the norm) and are lower when the populations are high and there is less room. But, overall a fairly good analysis that shows the power of exponential growth.
Newly colonised world might not have access to medical facilities and personel required for an average of 10 living children per family. If a new colony doesn't have a regular influx of colonists from a developped world, htey will suffer an important technological collapse as they simply don't have the infrastuctures to support it. You got to remember that before the industrial age, about 30% of women died in childbirth and had on average 10 to 12 pregnancies of which only 2 to 4 children would reach adult age and have children themselves and this condition put the majority of women out of the higher fields of the workforce which prevents or slows down tremendusouly technological development and largely prevents the creation of an advanced economy.
Even adjusting for infant and childhood mortality, rural populations tend to have families with more children on average than families in industrialized societies.
Completely anecdotal, but all four of my grandparents had 10+ siblings. My mother has 4 siblings, and my father has 3. I have only a single sibling, and most of my cousins are only childs. A good amount of my Aunts and Uncles don't even have children (and won't because they are in their 60s). Easily shows you how the birth rates go down as you start to industrialize more and have less space. 1900s Western United States was rural as hell, not so much any more.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/01 20:36:03
Even adjusting for infant and childhood mortality, rural populations tend to have families with more children on average than families in industrialized societies.
Completely anecdotal, but all four of my grandparents had 10+ siblings. My mother has 4 siblings, and my father has 3. I have only a single sibling, and most of my cousins are only childs. A good amount of my Aunts and Uncles don't even have children (and won't because they are in their 60s). Easily shows you how the birth rates go down as you start to industrialize more and have less space. 1900s Western United States was rural as hell, not so much any more.
The 1900's Western United Sates were indeed rural but had access to medecine and knowledge developped in the urban centers, tools built in larger towns through trade, high yield crops and agricultural methods allowed and perfected by advance knoweldge in chemistry, oil products and industrialised fishery that allowed a very small level of child mortality and childbirth death. Yes, rural populations tend to have larger families because they need the extra hands to work the farms and have the space for them. In larger cities, where work is done outside of home, where dwellings are small and where polution is an issue, families are much smaller. Finding colonists from an fully industrialised and prosperous civilisation advanced enough for interstellar travel willing to instal themselves on a virgin and largely unknown land with little or no possible chance for returnskilled in various domain is also going to be struggle, especially to find women. The "exciting life of plopping kids every year or two for all your adult life" is a very hard sale to make on an educated woman from an advanced civilisation.
epronovost wrote: The 1900's Western United Sates were indeed rural but had access to medecine and knowledge developped in the urban centers, tools built in larger towns through trade, high yield crops and agricultural methods allowed and perfected by advance knoweldge in chemistry, oil products and industrialised fishery that allowed a very small level of child mortality and childbirth death. Yes, rural populations tend to have larger families because they need the extra hands to work the farms and have the space for them. In larger cities, where work is done outside of home, where dwellings are small and where polution is an issue, families are much smaller. Finding colonists from an fully industrialised and prosperous civilisation advanced enough for interstellar travel willing to instal themselves on a virgin and largely unknown land with little or no possible chance for returnskilled in various domain is also going to be struggle, especially to find women. The "exciting life of plopping kids every year or two for all your adult life" is a very hard sale to make on an educated woman from an advanced civilisation.
Regardless, any civilization that has the technology to send colonists to another planet successfully is going to have the technology to provision them correctly to enable them to set up their own civilization. I believe a virgin colony world would be exactly like the American West, with the first few generations of colonists having as many children as the food situation will allow. Doesn't matter how unappealing the idea is for educated women, out of a population of billions there will be plenty of applicants, and I don't see how that is relevant to our discussion about population birth rates as we are assuming the planet in question has been colonized correctly as a matter of course.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/02 06:48:29
I've already answered this question, it is because she was wearing power armor. Something that we all agree increases your strength and speed significantly. You seriously think a battle sister no matter how experienced is going to last long against a grey knight?
Power armor doesn't increase speed, if possible it slows people down, especially considering Sisters don,t have a Black Carapace. Their undercoat is supposed to act like a Black Carapace, but it would be surprising if it worked even better. The lore states that Sisters armor, while offering equivalent protection, don't have all the auxilary system of the Space Marines one specifically for that reason. In the engagement in question, the Canoness is accompanied by Seraphims and the Grey Knight champion by a squad of terminators. About ten Seraphim are killed in the close combat, but so do two or three Grey Knights. Apparently, the entire fight lasted less than two minutes. I would suppose the Grey Knight would have won, but he probably wouldn't have had the luxury to take it easy. Since the Grey Knights were in terminator armors, they were probably a bit slower than in power armor. but probably even stronger. Its also possible the fact that both had power weapons helped the Sister since we don't really know how force fields impact fencing.
BTW, since were talking about stuff we disliked, I really think that killing a Hive Tyrant should be a momentous task that can only be done by tanks, war walkers or an entire squad of heavily armed Space Marine at the very least. The only times I could see a lone Space Marine win against one was if he was armed with something like a thunder hammer, relic blade or power fist and equipped with a powerful force field to just survive long enough to pass under the guard of the giant monster and strike it. A bit of luck or psychic protection against its psychic powers would be necessary.
Read Ragnar Blackmane, Power Armour does increase speed - Ragnar himself notices that it makes him feel lighter the first time he wears it and later notes that it adds speed. What Power Armour doesn’t change is reflexes because it has no bearing on how fast your brain communicates with your muscles and how fast they react.
Isn't that also the series with the "silent but deadly" fart joke despite Power Armor being airtight?
Considering how often Space Wolves go without helmets, power armour and even clothes on top of having enhanced senses to both hear and smell each other’s farts it would not surprise me in the slightest to have fart jokes pop up pretty frequently.
It has been nearly a decade since I last read the Ragnar series, I tend to remember the better parts like the descriptions of how Power Armour works, what it’s like learning a whole new world while knowing most of it due to the memories of others who have borne your gene seed before you.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Oh hell yes, I can totally see Sean Connory as an old inquisitor, and see Nick Cage as a promising young tech-priest who was scooped out of the cult mechanicus by Connery before he became too indoctrinated, but after he learned loads of valuable skills.
You and John Blanche both:
John was thinking of Marko Ramius, not John Mason, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/02 15:30:14
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
