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Made in gb
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator





Depends on where the pushback is happening. If its someone on Dakka I expect them to ignore it

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.


They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.

When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.
   
Made in us
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happy_inquisitor wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.


They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.

When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.

That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Waaaghpower 780029 10571346 wrote:
That depends on the pushback. If enough people are decrying it and calling for fixes right away, in public settings, GW won't be able to benefit from the short-term bump in sales.


I think that if that worked on GW, then I assume that they would have wrote better rule sets after some time. This is their 8th edition, they exists as a company for 30 years or more right? expecting them to act differently is like thinking that this time texaco or AT&T are going to act different if people protest for real this time.

I mean, why would they change? w40k players clearly are accepting the changes, and GW is generating huge black numbers the last two years.


When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.

Didn't castellans end up like that? changed meta in to lists with IG and castellans, hard counter to those lists, and that is it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 16:28:49


 
   
Made in gb
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit



Ottawa

Waaaghpower wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.


They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.

When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.

That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.


I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Lemondish wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.


They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.

When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.

That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.


I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.


Fun, are you also willing to sacrifice the abumdance of GW's broken shovel ware?

Because gw shot themselves in the foot here. Even rulewise because fw unit rules also come from the gw Team

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 16:46:09


 
   
Made in us
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Lemondish wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.


They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.

When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.

That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.


I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.

It's not the Leviathan that's the problem, it's the buffs. Take away the Leviathan, we'll just start buffing the next largest Dreadnought.
   
Made in ca
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Vancouver, BC

Is there an IH wlt that lets them fall back and shoot?

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Crazyterran wrote:
Is there an IH wlt that lets them fall back and shoot?

Tge make it a charictor and give it the warlord trait to consolidate (6 inches, not 100% certain if this is part of the model or warlord trait rules) in any direction.
Actually more broken they can consolidate in any direction.
Ie charge pumble you into dirt then consolidate back behind another unit and you not only can't swing back but also can't shoot them as they aren't the closes model even though they just charged you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lemondish wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.


They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.

When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.

That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.


I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.

You do realise that it's not the leviathan the redemptor also sees the same improvement in survivability.
It's also less than half the price of a leviathan before the tax unit to allow the leviathan to be taken.
Non ironhands leviathan aint broken even in the heady days of Bobby G lists they weren't even in most top placing lists it repulsors and predators.
It not about FW being broken it was just GW wrote unplayable poor rules for codex dreadnaughts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 17:23:04


 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Lemondish wrote:


I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.


Funny thing is I think people are going to go crazy for the leviathan with stormcannon arrays until they find out how lacklustre it is in the mirror match. Weapons with a flat D2 hate that ironstone relic. A list gets overdominant if it is also the best counter to itself (like Castellan Knights were) - but he leviathan IH list is a really bad counter to itself (or to IH lists in general).

I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Fierros is a blend of techmarine and Gravis Captain with Techmarine WS and Artificer armor.

He also has a lesser variant of servo Harness with only 1 gun. This only saves on Points in reality.

As far as his abilities go:

1) he drops all the Captain abilities while retaining Techmarine abilities(see point 3).

2) Master of the Forge grants an option to repair the flat 3(this could have just been a minor rewording of blessing of the omnissiah tbh), this is kind of normal for a Special character.

3)Then we have the Signum array wargear ability that is just an enhanced version of a devastator sgts, and replaces the Captain Rights of battle(slightly enhanced but only affecting a single unit).

4) He exchanges Iron Halo for a lower value 5++ that extends as an aura (which only matters vs AP-3 or better, so is not that spectacular tbf), and a 5+++ FNP for himself

So onto the points cost: 110 is a little cheap, just because a Gravis Captain with a Power axe and Heavy bolter would cost 110; as I had shown above, most abilities are simple swaps. But there should be a "character tax" in points cost; so 120-maybe 130 would be more in line for total cost.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
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@Komissar, minpr note: The Master of the Forge ability is almost certainly written awkwardly because they wanted it to interact with stratagems and other abilities properly.
   
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Dakka Veteran




 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Fierros is a blend of techmarine and Gravis Captain with Techmarine WS and Artificer armor.

He also has a lesser variant of servo Harness with only 1 gun. This only saves on Points in reality.

As far as his abilities go:

1) he drops all the Captain abilities while retaining Techmarine abilities(see point 3).

2) Master of the Forge grants an option to repair the flat 3(this could have just been a minor rewording of blessing of the omnissiah tbh), this is kind of normal for a Special character.

3)Then we have the Signum array wargear ability that is just an enhanced version of a devastator sgts, and replaces the Captain Rights of battle(slightly enhanced but only affecting a single unit).

4) He exchanges Iron Halo for a lower value 5++ that extends as an aura (which only matters vs AP-3 or better, so is not that spectacular tbf), and a 5+++ FNP for himself

So onto the points cost: 110 is a little cheap, just because a Gravis Captain with a Power axe and Heavy bolter would cost 110; as I had shown above, most abilities are simple swaps. But there should be a "character tax" in points cost; so 120-maybe 130 would be more in line for total cost.


Ahahahahahhahah
No just no, anything less than 170/180 is a complete insult to game balance
   
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KurtAngle2 wrote:

Ahahahahahhahah
No just no, anything less than 170/180 is a complete insult to game balance

Can you state any kind of logic or reasoning for this?
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Ice_can wrote:

See my worry is they will become so prevalent as they have such readily accessable playstyle and that when the stacking up comes out GW won't be able to see that it's only irons hands, will recost the vehicals and make non Iron hands players over pay for a number of units.


This is my fear as well. And there is no good solution. The IH vehicles are now so much better than vehicles of other chapters than costing them appropriately is literally impossible.

And regardless of how well they do in top end tournaments (I presume pretty damn well!) they definitely will become common in a casual settings. It is just such an obvious, easy and effective playstyle. And it will be super frustrating to opponents, same way than the hit penalty stacking Alaitoc Eldar were. Trying to damage vehicles protected by FNP, invulnerable save and the Iron Stone and if you actually manage to do that it having no effect to their performance and then being healed back to full health will feel disheartening. This just doesn't result fun gaming experiences.


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
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Waaaghpower wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:

Ahahahahahhahah
No just no, anything less than 170/180 is a complete insult to game balance

Can you state any kind of logic or reasoning for this?


Adding a 5+++ to otherwise Invulnerability deprived vehicles is giving them huge durability against their worst enemies (ANTITANK weapons); also repairing 6 wounds to a nearby vehicle or 3 to 2 vehicles considering what the IH passive buffs are (6+++ and double the wounds when checking the damage chart) is bonkers so that NOBODY in the game can win a shootout against that parking lot, it's just too much survivability for practically no costs or 1 CP Stratagems at best (don't disregard 5+++ for 1 CP, Halve damage to a Dreadnought for another 1 CP and the -1 damage relic that you can give to any character nearby).

It's just too much and IH thoroughly deserves a heavy nerf for being SO MUCH plain better than any other marines chapter (guess what, they just fix the marines durability problems whilst keeping most of the marine damage output intact).

TL;DR It's Guilliman case all over but IH now so the internal balance is thrown out of window

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 18:06:34


 
   
Made in us
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KurtAngle2 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:

Ahahahahahhahah
No just no, anything less than 170/180 is a complete insult to game balance

Can you state any kind of logic or reasoning for this?


Adding a 5+++ to otherwise Invulnerability deprived vehicles is giving them huge durability against their worst enemies (ANTITANK weapons); also repairing 6 wounds to a nearby vehicle or 3 to 2 vehicles considering what the IH passive buffs are (6+++ and double the wounds when checking the damage chart) is bonkers so that NOBODY in the game can win a shootout against that parking lot, it's just too much survivability for practically no costs or 1 CP Stratagems at best (don't disregard 5+++ for 1 CP, Halve damage to a Dreadnought for another 1 CP and the -1 damage relic that you can give to any character nearby).

It's just too much and IH thoroughly deserves a heavy nerf for being SO MUCH plain better than any other marines chapter (guess what, they just fix the marines durability problems whilst keeping most of the marine damage output intact).

TL;DR It's Guilliman case all over but IH now so the internal balance is thrown out of window

Let's compare two Techmarines to one Feirros.
Since you're spending command points every turn to use his healing, I'll spend a few command points upfront and get the Ironstone, Adept of the Omnisiah on one, and Target Protocols on the other.
For 20 points less, you get almost equivalent durability, (More wounds, plus they're split up, but no invuln and lower T,) almost-as-good repair ability, (aberage 5 wounds recovered instead of 6,) worse shooting, worse melee (but who cares?), equivalent durability buffs, and an equivalent unit buff. Plus, since it's two guys you can fill more mandatory detachment slots and, if necessary, split up to cover more ground. (If you wanted equivalent shooting you could also grab the relic boltgun, too.)

That's for twenty points *less*. And you're suggesting that the absolute minimum cost for Feirros should be 50-60pts higher, meaning you could buy *four* techmarines for his cost.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






BTW, apparently IH have a CP regenerating relic. So they won't easily run out of the CP either.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




There's no equivalent when Feirros can offer a 5++ Aura to EVERYTHING within 6" (which you can conga line if needed).
It's the same case as Guilliman and you can't seriously try to put 2 techmarines in the aforementioned setup as "similar", they are FAR from it

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/15 18:34:23


 
   
Made in us
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(To be clear: I agree that Feirros is powerful, and maybe even undercosted, but he's not close to 60 points undercosted.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
There's no equivalent when Feirros can offer a 5++ Aura to EVERYTHING within 6" (which you can conga line if needed).
It's the same case as Guilliman and you can't seriously try to put 2 techmarines in the aforementioned setup as "similar", they are FAR from it

Why aren't they similar? The aura is smaller but much more powerful, the healing is average 5 wounds instead of 6, the buff is one hit, wound, and damage roll instead of 2+ BS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 18:37:16


 
   
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Waaaghpower wrote:
(To be clear: I agree that Feirros is powerful, and maybe even undercosted, but he's not close to 60 points undercosted.)


It is, that Aura is too powerful to have in a Space Marines army which also affects EVERYTHING without limitations in either Keywords, number of units or other applicable circumstances (i.e models within 6").
If you can't understand that.

Crypteks for example only offer a 5++ aura within 3" to INFANTRY models and only in the Shooting phase...literally apples to bananas in terms of power level

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 18:39:15


 
   
Made in us
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KurtAngle2 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
(To be clear: I agree that Feirros is powerful, and maybe even undercosted, but he's not close to 60 points undercosted.)


It is, that Aura is too powerful to have in a Space Marines army which also affects EVERYTHING without limitations in either Keywords, number of units or other applicable circumstances (i.e models within 6").
If you can't understand that.

Crypteks for example only offer a 5++ aura within 3" to INFANTRY models and only in the Shooting phase...literally apples to bananas in terms of power level

Is it, though? I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines to begin with, especially on infantry. This will only be super meaningful on tanks, where it isn't nearly as potent as the Ironstone.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Waaaghpower wrote:

Is it, though? I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines to begin with, especially on infantry. This will only be super meaningful on tanks, where it isn't nearly as potent as the Ironstone.

And they will have both. They can stack crazy amount of durability enhancements on their vehicles and then heal them at unprecedented speed.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Waaaaaghpower: yes, the double Blessings + Master modification is probably due to Machine empathy allowing double Blessings. I was just saying that as an extra ability(making him seem more powerful than he really is to some non-thinking posters because he has Moar Abilities!) almost seemed odd when it is basically just a rewording of the ability.

KurtAngle2: Rights of Temering only matters vs AP-3 or better weapons. Yes, it is a powerful defense for IH vehicles; No it is not any more "Game breaking" than a 6" aura of reroll 1s to hit for everything without keyword restriction (Like all Captains have). If you think getting a Save vs the few weapons that would otherwise remove or reduce said save slightly lower is too powerful and under costed, then you must think the same thing of the Captain's reroll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:

Is it, though? I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines to begin with, especially on infantry. This will only be super meaningful on tanks, where it isn't nearly as potent as the Ironstone.

And they will have both. They can stack crazy amount of durability enhancements on their vehicles and then heal them at unprecedented speed.


Except: the Ironstone is a relic, you need a separate second character nearby to use that relic and the 5++. Yes you will have the needed character HQ in a Battalion, but now you have a Deathstar clump that is not supporting the rest of your army. You are also using your 1 Relic choice on the Ironstone(unless you are also paying CPs for another Relic), and there are other relics in the Codex that you might want to take, and will be other good relics in the supplement (I had already talked about Haywire bolts from the Imgur link above as a decent way to deal heavy damage to enemy vehicles, then you also have Gorgon's chain, which will be great for Librarians or other Lts).

So, in short, you are going to have some choices to make in which Relics you take and how you want to play. If you really want 800+ points in tough tanks as a slow-moving Center-line deathstar, maybe with an additional few Dreads, sure go ahead; but you are going to find the play fairly boring and most of your points wasted as the enemy just ignores half your army and plays to objectives

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 19:04:35


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.

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 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.


Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull
but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.


Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?

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 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.

Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.


Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull
but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.


Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?

In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 19:30:15


 
   
Made in gb
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 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.



The fix to the Caladius grav tank seemed about right to me. Certainly not in line with the famous "nuke from orbit" fix to Malefic Lords.

   
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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 Elfric wrote:
A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper

I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.

Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.

This release is insane.

No, he is not better in every respect. A 5+ invuln on Orks offers more advantage than a 5+ invuln on marines.

I'm sorry, but if you want to go down this rabbit hole a 5++ is actually MORE valuable on more expensive models aka Marines.

He's embarrassingly better and I hope GW sort their balance issues out in CA.

You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.

The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Just to get this back on track as your all missing the mark so badly it's kinda funny.

How to make Iron hands deathstar ish work

Battalion
Ironfather
Liberian
Primarid Lieutenant

2 5 man intercessors with stalkers
1 5 man infultrater squad

1 repulsor twin lass otherwise heavy on the dakka
1 repulsor executioner like wise anti tank and dakka

Flyer detachment
Stormtallon
Stormtallon
Stormhawk
Stormhawk
Storm Tallon or Hawk needs playtesting to find out which is best

That's one way to make it work. Still got 8CP the boss father and 2 relics on 2 charictors. All vehicals have fly and you have 12 inches of not today GSG.
   
 
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