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2020/07/28 17:14:13
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
Doesn't seem to me like this is a consolidation really, at least not in the sense that people have been asking for all this time. With a supplement for each chapter it rather seems more that they want the option to have more unique chapters in future.
Anyway I am pretty indifferent.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 17:14:56
2020/07/28 17:19:15
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
Yet Space Wolves don't play different to Space Marines even with all the "unqiue" factors. Thanks for playing!
What are you even talking about? They play completely different.
I mean sure, my Red Hunters ALSO have a squad of Werewolves with Thunder Hammers, and OF COURSE my HQs all ride giant wol ... oh wait, no. That's just Space Wolves ...
H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.
It's just typical Marine envy from the less fortunate players (probably guard). It's sad to see, but thankfully their hate is largely impotent.
So that's not fair. Are some people too happy about this? Probably. But no one is losing their identity. GW has made it clear that the snowflake chapters are still getting their supplements. No one is losing anything. I'd agree with that sentiment if the idea here was that all marines were getting collapsed into the main marine book and there would be NO supplements. At that point, yeah, that would suck and your Blood Angels probably aren't going to feel like Blood Angels anymore, but again, that's not what's happening here. Everyone will still get a supplement with their unique items.
I'm a marine player myself with armies of BA, DA, SW, and Red Hunters (currently being used as Sons of Orar until the Red Hunters get a proper update), and even I am at the point where I just eye roll when, on a almost WEEKLY basis there's another marine release while armies like Dark Eldar have only LOST units since what? 2010? After almost every preview weekend, the GW Instagram page just reads like:
"This week on Warhammer Preview - The super awesome Primaris Tower of His Invincible Light Drop Fortress complete with End Times Boltstorm array and Feth You quantum shielding! Stay tuned for next week's preview of the Dominus class Primaris Battle tank! If you thought the Executioner had a big gun, we've got a surprise for you!"
It's not rampant toxic hate. People are just getting sick of it. I feel like, with that new Primaris tank, the Marine releases are almost becoming parodies of themselves.
Meanwhile, if handled correctly, rolling things into the main book and releasing supplements for the extra "special" stuff should actually give marine players MORE options than before while maintaining their special status, and, fingers crossed, will hopefully allow them to spend at least a little more time on other factions.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 17:20:02
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Type40, I can't help but notice that you've not said anything at all about my 9 page proposal to translate and recreate the SW units in supplement form for the Space Marines Codex.
Reposting, in case you happened to miss it:
Spoiler:
In a Space Wolves army, please use the Space Wolves Melee Weapons table, Space Wolves Terminator Weapons table, the Space Wolves Pistols table, and the Space Wolves Dreadnought Weapons table instead of the ones in Codex: Space Marines where appropriate (basically, just the normal ones, plus frost weapons, helfrost pistol, and the blizzard shield/axe/wolf claws etc etc in the order you'd expect).
In a Space Wolves army, models with the <Chaplain> keyword gain the <Wolf Priest> keyword, and have the "Healing Balms" rule (described below)
In a Space Wolves army, Company Veterans, Company Ancients, Company Champions, <Terminators> and <Lieutenants> all gain the <Wolf Guard> keyword.
In a Space Wolves army, you may not take Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Vanguard Veteran Squads, Sternguard Veteran Squads, Attack Bikes, Bike Squads, Scout Squads, or Devastator Squads.
In the core SM book, modify Techmarines to be able to take wargear from the Melee Weapons and Pistols charts.
Then, just print all the actually unique 27 units (removed one because the Iron Priest can now be fielded like a normal Techmarine getting access to the SW charts) in the rest of the book, and it should sort itself out.
Where's the problem with this? What part of it stops you playing your own army? Nothing gets cut, mechanically you function identically, and it doesn't even need many pages to add to a supplement.
Yet Space Wolves don't play different to Space Marines even with all the "unqiue" factors. Thanks for playing!
What are you even talking about? They play completely different.
I mean sure, my Red Hunters ALSO have a squad of Werewolves with Thunder Hammers, and OF COURSE my HQs all ride giant wol ... oh wait, no. That's just Space Wolves ...
That's some gatekeeping you're doing there. It isn't a real Space Wolves force unless you're going ham with Wulfen and Thunderwolves.
So what happens when someone doesn't take those two units? Seems a lot like there just Marines! Almost as though each Chapter only needs 4 or so unique units and the rest can be consolidated! Big think time I know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 17:51:13
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.
not gleefull, just remarking on the fact that some now that had no empathy for other factions in the past get to squel and that they are surprised that others are just ignoring it.
is it good?
Questionable, especially because it entirely depends on the execution of the supplements and rules, and since bleighs dead, GW hasn't had a good trackrecord with customizable rules to represent differing factions.
Is it good in the sense that it cuts down on marine release spam? Yes.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.
not gleefull, just remarking on the fact that some now that had no empathy for other factions in the past get to squel and that they are surprised that others are just ignoring it.
is it good?
Questionable, especially because it entirely depends on the execution of the supplements and rules, and since bleighs dead, GW hasn't had a good trackrecord with customizable rules to represent differing factions.
Is it good in the sense that it cuts down on marine release spam? Yes.
Whaaat ??? How does that cut down marine release spam ??? There's at least 12 SM kits coming in, and we can expect new minis for each supplement like last time.
You guys just don't think. We're getting even more into SM dominance, we will eat SM releases for the entirety of 2020 with supplements for sure : indomitus now, the new starter with the blade guard in a bit, then kits for all the other units, SM codex in october with more release... and then characters going out with supplements.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 18:18:47
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.
not gleefull, just remarking on the fact that some now that had no empathy for other factions in the past get to squel and that they are surprised that others are just ignoring it.
is it good?
Questionable, especially because it entirely depends on the execution of the supplements and rules, and since bleighs dead, GW hasn't had a good trackrecord with customizable rules to represent differing factions.
Is it good in the sense that it cuts down on marine release spam? Yes.
Whaaat ??? How does that cut down marine release spam ??? There's at least 12 SM kits coming in, and we can expect new minis for each supplement like last time.
You guys just don't think. We're getting even more into SM, we will eat SM release for the entirety of 2020 with supplements for sure : indomitus now, the new starter with the blade guard in a bit, then kits for all the other units, SM codex in october with more release... and then characters going out with supplements.
you would regardless, just instead of SMSM you'd get SMSW instead, which is still SM, just a specific subcategory.
And like i said, it entirely depends upon GW doing a good job.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 18:21:22
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.
not gleefull, just remarking on the fact that some now that had no empathy for other factions in the past get to squel and that they are surprised that others are just ignoring it.
is it good?
Questionable, especially because it entirely depends on the execution of the supplements and rules, and since bleighs dead, GW hasn't had a good trackrecord with customizable rules to represent differing factions.
Is it good in the sense that it cuts down on marine release spam? Yes.
Whaaat ??? How does that cut down marine release spam ??? There's at least 12 SM kits coming in, and we can expect new minis for each supplement like last time.
You guys just don't think. We're getting even more into SM, we will eat SM release for the entirety of 2020 with supplements for sure : indomitus now, the new starter with the blade guard in a bit, then kits for all the other units, SM codex in october with more release... and then characters going out with supplements.
you would regardless, just instead of SMSM you'd get SMSW instead, which is still SM, just a specific subcategory.
And like i said, it entirely depends upon GW doing a good job.
I don't know but I never felt that there were that many SM release when I played in 3rd or 5th.
Anyway, your argument is false.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 18:25:01
catbarf wrote: 30K makes the legions feel very different from one another through a careful selection of army-wide special rules, a couple (at most) of unique units per legion, and unique characters. It doesn't take a whole separate codex for every Legion, with minor changes to every unit, to make each legion feel distinctive.
I've played plenty of historical wargames where the only strong difference between factions was some flavor of army-wide special rule. When designed well, this can still make them function very differently from one another.
It really seems to be a 40K thing where people get hung up on minutiae as the defining element of their army's identity, especially when so many broader elements of a faction's identity (eg Space Marines being well-coordinated and having centuries of experience) aren't represented in the rules at all.
I like how 8th introduced subfactions. You get subfaction-specific characters, stratagems, and army-wide special rules. That's really all it takes to make White Scars feel very different from Iron Hands, or Vostroyans from Tallarn. The need to have all the Marine subfactions be their own little faction is not, IMO, a net positive. Consolidation is a step in the right direction.
I can't believe this post didn't attract more attention. It's spot on about the 30k books. With careful selection of traits and elegance in approach, armies can play completely differently even though they come from the same 'Codex'. What 30k dud, though, was balance stuff internally to a fantastic degree. Your Legion might have access to X but it loses out on Y. Outside of 30k GW have never really gotten the hang of the latter part.
Probably because HH was written by a totally different team from 40K. The HH guys, especially Alan Bligh, are/were historical wargamers through and through, and it really shows in how they approached both the rules and the narrative.
But yeah, that's an astute point about trade-offs. All the subfactions and spinoffs in 40K just give you straight bonuses, eat your cake and have it too. Imagine how different it would be if each subfaction came with heavy-handed restrictions on what you could take, to the point where not using subfaction rules actually seemed like a viable option.
I'm working on a Mechanicum list at the moment. Specializing into Legio Cybernetica gives some significant bonuses (higher remote-control range for robots, higher Initiative) akin to 8th Ed subfactions, but it also imposes strict restrictions on force organization. You must take robots as compulsory Troops, and you have to take robots for FA and HS before you can take non-robots. Those are some pretty heavy drawbacks that make me really consider whether I want to specialize and get the bonuses, or stick with the more generalist list. In 40K, I can just pick whichever subfaction I think gives me the most bonuses. I'd argue there's less identity when they can be so freely interchanged, rather than imposing tradeoffs in either list construction or gameplay that must be respected.
The closest I've seen to this in 40K is Tempestus Scions, where in order to get a regimental bonus you have to restrict yourself to an extremely narrow roster of units- your Scions then aren't individually different from ones attached to a Guard tank regiment (aside from getting a regimental bonus), but in terms of force identity it is very different from generic tank-heavy Guard. That's where I think a lot of players get hung up; what makes one force really feel different from another isn't whether one gets +1WS or a different grenade type so much as it is about overall composition and strategy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 18:31:23
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Type40, I can't help but notice that you've not said anything at all about my 9 page proposal to translate and recreate the SW units in supplement form for the Space Marines Codex.
Reposting, in case you happened to miss it:
Spoiler:
In a Space Wolves army, please use the Space Wolves Melee Weapons table, Space Wolves Terminator Weapons table, the Space Wolves Pistols table, and the Space Wolves Dreadnought Weapons table instead of the ones in Codex: Space Marines where appropriate (basically, just the normal ones, plus frost weapons, helfrost pistol, and the blizzard shield/axe/wolf claws etc etc in the order you'd expect).
In a Space Wolves army, models with the <Chaplain> keyword gain the <Wolf Priest> keyword, and have the "Healing Balms" rule (described below)
In a Space Wolves army, Company Veterans, Company Ancients, Company Champions, <Terminators> and <Lieutenants> all gain the <Wolf Guard> keyword.
In a Space Wolves army, you may not take Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Vanguard Veteran Squads, Sternguard Veteran Squads, Attack Bikes, Bike Squads, Scout Squads, or Devastator Squads.
In the core SM book, modify Techmarines to be able to take wargear from the Melee Weapons and Pistols charts.
Then, just print all the actually unique 27 units (removed one because the Iron Priest can now be fielded like a normal Techmarine getting access to the SW charts) in the rest of the book, and it should sort itself out.
Where's the problem with this? What part of it stops you playing your own army? Nothing gets cut, mechanically you function identically, and it doesn't even need many pages to add to a supplement.
This would be great, but at this point, why did they bother consolidating the codex's at all XD, the supplement is pretty much stating "everything but primaris doesnt work like it does for space wolves, here are a bunch of new datasheets." I would be fine with that, it just seems unlikely because at that point, from a rules standpoint, it would be a lot easier to just print a separate codex. I doubt GW will literally release a supplement that invalidates the majority of their core book. Your proposed solution just seems convoluted. If this is GWs approach, great... but its a lot of extra work to beat around the bush.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
I believe people is losing the objetivity about this issue from both sides.
But this all comes down to what has been discussed to death in the RPG scene: More crunchy systems like Pathfinder were everything is sistematized vs more abstract systems were the actions and stuff is more generalized and is expected for the differences to come from the interpretation.
I mean, sure, your fire ball and you ray of fire can have different damage stats and different casting difficulty but you can also have a generic fire damage spell of level 2 that does X damage and then just represent it as you like and prefer.
Both systems have their own virtues. In the case of Space Marines, I find both systems appealing so I don't care what GW decides. My dark angels will be dark angels, and I'll play them as such (With the exception when Khorne posses me and I rush to meele in rhinos), if I have nice snowflake rules cool, if I don't cool because they will still be my dark angels.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Yet Space Wolves don't play different to Space Marines even with all the "unqiue" factors. Thanks for playing!
What are you even talking about? They play completely different.
I mean sure, my Red Hunters ALSO have a squad of Werewolves with Thunder Hammers, and OF COURSE my HQs all ride giant wol ... oh wait, no. That's just Space Wolves ...
That's some gatekeeping you're doing there. It isn't a real Space Wolves force unless you're going ham with Wulfen and Thunderwolves.
So what happens when someone doesn't take those two units? Seems a lot like there just Marines! Almost as though each Chapter only needs 4 or so unique units and the rest can be consolidated! Big think time I know.
you cant call gatekeeping for this lol
"How do space wolves play differently?"
someone describes some of the ways SW play different
"How dare you tell people that's the only way to play space wolves, people can play space wolves vanilla if they want to"
again stop being ignorant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 18:34:41
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Type40 wrote: ...This would be great, but at this point, why did they bother consolidating the codex's at all XD, the supplement is pretty much stating "everything but primaris doesnt work like it does for space wolves, here are a bunch of new datasheets."...
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.
not gleefull, just remarking on the fact that some now that had no empathy for other factions in the past get to squel and that they are surprised that others are just ignoring it.
is it good?
Questionable, especially because it entirely depends on the execution of the supplements and rules, and since bleighs dead, GW hasn't had a good trackrecord with customizable rules to represent differing factions.
Is it good in the sense that it cuts down on marine release spam? Yes.
Whaaat ??? How does that cut down marine release spam ??? There's at least 12 SM kits coming in, and we can expect new minis for each supplement like last time.
You guys just don't think. We're getting even more into SM, we will eat SM release for the entirety of 2020 with supplements for sure : indomitus now, the new starter with the blade guard in a bit, then kits for all the other units, SM codex in october with more release... and then characters going out with supplements.
you would regardless, just instead of SMSM you'd get SMSW instead, which is still SM, just a specific subcategory.
And like i said, it entirely depends upon GW doing a good job.
I don't know but I never felt that there were that many SM release when I played in 3rd or 5th.
Anyway, your argument is false.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 18:34:15
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Type40 wrote: ...This would be great, but at this point, why did they bother consolidating the codex's at all XD, the supplement is pretty much stating "everything but primaris doesnt work like it does for space wolves, here are a bunch of new datasheets."...
And all the vehicles.
yes and most of the vehicles... there are exceptions.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.
not gleefull, just remarking on the fact that some now that had no empathy for other factions in the past get to squel and that they are surprised that others are just ignoring it.
is it good?
Questionable, especially because it entirely depends on the execution of the supplements and rules, and since bleighs dead, GW hasn't had a good trackrecord with customizable rules to represent differing factions.
Is it good in the sense that it cuts down on marine release spam? Yes.
Whaaat ??? How does that cut down marine release spam ??? There's at least 12 SM kits coming in, and we can expect new minis for each supplement like last time.
You guys just don't think. We're getting even more into SM, we will eat SM release for the entirety of 2020 with supplements for sure : indomitus now, the new starter with the blade guard in a bit, then kits for all the other units, SM codex in october with more release... and then characters going out with supplements.
you would regardless, just instead of SMSM you'd get SMSW instead, which is still SM, just a specific subcategory.
And like i said, it entirely depends upon GW doing a good job.
I don't know but I never felt that there were that many SM release when I played in 3rd or 5th.
Anyway, your argument is false.
Yes it is just blatantly false to argue that they will cut down marine release just have a little objectivity. I've never seen so much SM release, they already previewed 12 kits, and there's the landspeeder primaris coming, a new HQ saw in the preview of the codex and intercessor with some kind of heavy bolter... it's insane the number of release coming for SM.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 18:40:13
Type40 wrote:This would be great, but at this point, why did they bother consolidating the codex's at all XD
Because printing 27 datasheets as an addition to another book is easier than printing those 27 datasheets alongside reprinting all the HQ choices, Primaris, vehicles, core stratagems, points values for every single weapon and unit, including all the generic ones, and a lore/explanation page for every unit, including the generic ones that both armies would share.
We're talking something like *nine* pages of datasheets, throw in another page to handle points costs for the unique stuff, another two pages or so for the unique warlord traits, stratagems, psychic powers, and relics, instead of REPRINTING the majority of the generic units.
The supplement is so much simpler.
the supplement is pretty much stating "everything but primaris doesnt work like it does for space wolves, here are a bunch of new datasheets."
And nearly all the HQs. And vehicles.
So, between all the Primaris, all the vehicles, and the vast vast majority of the HQs - yeah, that's definitely the majority of the Codex being the same.
I would be fine with that, it just seems unlikely because at that point, from a rules standpoint, it would be a lot easier to just print a separate codex.
5 more pages than the Ultramarines supplement is far less work than reprinting all the rules, points, and fluff for all the Primaris, all the vehicles, and all the HQs.
I doubt GW will literally release a supplement that invalidates the majority of their core book.
You really need to learn what a majority is.
Primaris, vehicles, and HQ choices make up more units in a Codex than all the units swapped out in my proposal. There's barely even 50% being swapped out.
Your proposed solution just seems convoluted.
Less convoluted than reprinting identical datasheets because of a minority of units, massively inflating the page count, and being outdated the second that another generic Space Marine unit is added, and requiring an FAQ to add that new unit in?
I don't think so.
If this is GWs approach, great... but its a lot of extra work to beat around the bush.
It's literally less effort than reprinting the whole Codex again, with 9 pages difference.
ERJAK wrote: Can't believe hbmc is trying to pull the 'unique identity' card.
Yeah, 'motorcycles, arson, construction, robots, narcissism, emo, emo-er, emo-est, and furries' are all SOOO valuable and SOO important to the flavor.
Just because you don't think the flavor is appealing doesn't mean other people don't. you play your game and let us enjoy the flavour we do. One of the reasons 40k was able to become some popular is that it had flavor for any sci-fi fan.
Remember each one of those legions you have pointed out has dozens of books of content and lore.
Sorry its not the flavor you like. But the world doesn't revolve around your tastes and thank god because some of those flavors are why I bother with this game at all.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
ERJAK wrote: Can't believe hbmc is trying to pull the 'unique identity' card.
Yeah, 'motorcycles, arson, construction, robots, narcissism, emo, emo-er, emo-est, and furries' are all SOOO valuable and SOO important to the flavor.
Just because you don't think the flavor is appealing doesn't mean other people don't. you play your game and let us enjoy the flavour we do. One of the reasons 40k was able to become some popular is that it had flavor for any sci-fi fan.
Remember each one of those legions you have pointed out has dozens of books of content and lore.
Sorry its not the flavor you like. But the world doesn't revolve around your tastes and thank god because some of those flavors are why I bother with this game at all.
Right, so you're admitting that all those Chapters have their own flavour.
Why should SW get a Codex, but the Iron Hands shouldn't, if they're both flavourful, and people should be allowed flavour? Why do IH have to settle for supplement treatment, as a non-Codex Chapter? Unless you're saying that all Chapters, from Ultramarines to Space Wolves, should get their own unique Codexes?
Type40 wrote:This would be great, but at this point, why did they bother consolidating the codex's at all XD
Because printing 27 datasheets as an addition to another book is easier than printing those 27 datasheets alongside reprinting all the HQ choices, Primaris, vehicles, core stratagems, points values for every single weapon and unit, including all the generic ones, and a lore/explanation page for every unit, including the generic ones that both armies would share.
We're talking something like *nine* pages of datasheets, throw in another page to handle points costs for the unique stuff, another two pages or so for the unique warlord traits, stratagems, psychic powers, and relics, instead of REPRINTING the majority of the generic units.
The supplement is so much simpler.
the supplement is pretty much stating "everything but primaris doesnt work like it does for space wolves, here are a bunch of new datasheets."
And nearly all the HQs. And vehicles.
So, between all the Primaris, all the vehicles, and the vast vast majority of the HQs - yeah, that's definitely the majority of the Codex being the same.
I would be fine with that, it just seems unlikely because at that point, from a rules standpoint, it would be a lot easier to just print a separate codex.
5 more pages than the Ultramarines supplement is far less work than reprinting all the rules, points, and fluff for all the Primaris, all the vehicles, and all the HQs.
I doubt GW will literally release a supplement that invalidates the majority of their core book.
You really need to learn what a majority is.
Primaris, vehicles, and HQ choices make up more units in a Codex than all the units swapped out in my proposal. There's barely even 50% being swapped out.
Your proposed solution just seems convoluted.
Less convoluted than reprinting identical datasheets because of a minority of units, massively inflating the page count, and being outdated the second that another generic Space Marine unit is added, and requiring an FAQ to add that new unit in?
I don't think so.
If this is GWs approach, great... but its a lot of extra work to beat around the bush.
It's literally less effort than reprinting the whole Codex again, with 9 pages difference.
yes and most of the vehicles... there are exceptions.
Two? Three? That's one page.
Sure, and then it'll be a adequate albeit incredibly confusing and hard to follow supplement that could have been an easy to understand and succinct individual codex where we wouldnt have to flip between two books constantly checking what I am allowed to use what I am not allowed to use and what works differently.
Again, I think your proposal is the best case scenario... I just dont think its going to happen.
ERJAK wrote: Can't believe hbmc is trying to pull the 'unique identity' card.
Yeah, 'motorcycles, arson, construction, robots, narcissism, emo, emo-er, emo-est, and furries' are all SOOO valuable and SOO important to the flavor.
Just because you don't think the flavor is appealing doesn't mean other people don't. you play your game and let us enjoy the flavour we do. One of the reasons 40k was able to become some popular is that it had flavor for any sci-fi fan.
Remember each one of those legions you have pointed out has dozens of books of content and lore.
Sorry its not the flavor you like. But the world doesn't revolve around your tastes and thank god because some of those flavors are why I bother with this game at all.
Right, so you're admitting that all those Chapters have their own flavour.
Why should SW get a Codex, but the Iron Hands shouldn't, if they're both flavourful, and people should be allowed flavour? Why do IH have to settle for supplement treatment, as a non-Codex Chapter? Unless you're saying that all Chapters, from Ultramarines to Space Wolves, should get their own unique Codexes?
because SW have 20 years of its own army wide rules, many unique units, and unique army construction (a little less unique after 8th but still unique)
I do advocate for the others to get their own unique codexes but I also acknowledge making unique units, army wide rules, and army constructions for each would be a lot of extra work and time for GW... SW/BA/DA just need updates to 9th not an entire creative faction design.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 18:56:10
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
That's some gatekeeping you're doing there. It isn't a real Space Wolves force unless you're going ham with Wulfen and Thunderwolves.
So what happens when someone doesn't take those two units? Seems a lot like there just Marines! Almost as though each Chapter only needs 4 or so unique units and the rest can be consolidated! Big think time I know.
Please explain to me, in your own words, what you think "gatekeeping" is ...
And no. I think Space Wolves are easily one of the top two or three "most different" chapters. It seems like you don't know anything about them though, so you just look at a picture of a Blood Claw or a Longfang and yell "SEE! SEE!, JUST LIKE REGULAR MARINES!" but even their other units don't function at all the same in most cases. Blood Claws in particular play VERY different. So your statement that "Space Wolves play just like all the others" is pretty far off base almost regardless of what the army comp is. They are actually really different. They certainly CAN play like other marines, but they usually don't.
Now, let's add to that the fact that your original statement not only said they "play just like regular marines", but that they do so "even with the unique factors". When you add in that you seem to feel the "unique factors" don't in any way, change how the army plays, it's clear you're not really trying to argue a point. You're just trying to argue. I know I shouldn't feed the troll and I typically ignore posts like this, but this one was pretty um ... let's call it a "unique factor" ...
I'm actually pro-rolling everyone in, but I'm also interested in hearing why they shouldn't be. That said, if you're going to lay out an argument in either direction, at least know what you're talking about? Maybe ask questions when you don't know? If you feel a certain way, but can't back it up yet, just say that? It will get you further than the character you're currently playing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 19:21:42
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Type40 wrote:Sure, and then it'll be a adequate albeit incredibly confusing and hard to follow supplement that could have been an easy to understand and succinct individual codex where we wouldnt have to flip between two books constantly checking what I am allowed to use what I am not allowed to use and what works differently.
If you're making an army list, you surely have the space to hold the two books.
Secondly, if you genuinely struggle with the, what, eight, units I laid down as needing to be banned from SW lists (Tacticals, Assaults, Sternguard, Vanguard, Bikes, Attack Bikes, Scouts, Devastators?), you can easily write them down on a sheet of paper or on a post-it-note on your main Codex to say "can't have these, check XYZ book instead!" But, for all you veteran SW players, I'm sure you're more than capable of knowing what's supposed to be in your army.
It's not a hassle at all. The only hassle I can see is for just generally Chapter-specific stuff and stats mid game- but that's not an issue unique to SW, every supplement has that issue. If we let SW have a Codex because "two books is more hassle", then surely every Chapter should have their own Codex to avoid Two-Book Syndrome.
What about my proposal was confusing? Confusing would have been something like trying to make Tacticals fit as Grey Hunters, which would have had a LOT of footnotes. The ones I singled out were very basic changes and alterations, ones that pretty much all veteran SW players would recognise.
As for the whole "how do I know what units I can take!!" confusion - similarly, imagine the confusion of a new player who might not understand the difference between Space Wolves and Ultramarines in their current split-Codex way:
"Yes, these are both Space Marines!"
"Great, so I can use the Space Marines codex to get the rules for these Primaris Space Wolves!"
"Ah, no."
"Why not?"
"Because Space Wolves have a number of unique units, as well as shared ones with the normal Space Marines!"
"So, these Intercessors aren't the same as these other ones?"
"Well, they're actually pretty much identical. But you need a totally different book to play them if you're doing Space Wolves. Even though they, and the vast majority of the army, is identical to normal Marines."
At least if a Space Wolves player accidentally buys something like a Tactical Squad or Assault Squad, they can usually play them as the nearest equivalent without any illegal wargear combos (barring if they assemble a heavy weapon on their Tacticals - but that model can then fit into a Long Fangs squad instead!)
I don't know - I feel pretty confident that merging SW as a supplement will have far less confusion. If you're playing loyalist Space Marines who share the majority of your units, you just get the one main book, and then deviate out to what you want to specialise into for that extra flavour.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Why should SW get a Codex, but the Iron Hands shouldn't, if they're both flavourful, and people should be allowed flavour? Why do IH have to settle for supplement treatment, as a non-Codex Chapter? Unless you're saying that all Chapters, from Ultramarines to Space Wolves, should get their own unique Codexes?
because SW have 20 years of its own army wide rules, many unique units, and unique army construction (a little less unique after 8th but still unique)
But Iron Hands used to be unique too, and then got railroaded into losing many of their definite traits. Same as Black Templars. Ultramarines have army wide rules (Tactical Doctrine), and plenty of unique units.
The appeal to time doesn't exactly hold water when many Chapters who were equally fluffily unique as the Wolves got their unique options stripped away for no reason.
SW/BA/DA just need updates to 9th not an entire creative faction design.
And you know what the quickest way to get SW/BA/DA up to the 9th update? Do it at the same time as you do the other 6 Space Marines! One book, all new changes done in there.
Think of it this way too - if design time is really concern, then having all changes and additions to core Space Marine units (like, say adding in a bunch of Phobos Marines, or Bolter Discipline, or new stratagems and psychic powers and relic tables) being done all in one book, instead of reprinting 4, is better, no?
Yet Space Wolves don't play different to Space Marines even with all the "unqiue" factors. Thanks for playing!
What are you even talking about? They play completely different.
I mean sure, my Red Hunters ALSO have a squad of Werewolves with Thunder Hammers, and OF COURSE my HQs all ride giant wol ... oh wait, no. That's just Space Wolves ...
That's some gatekeeping you're doing there. It isn't a real Space Wolves force unless you're going ham with Wulfen and Thunderwolves.
So what happens when someone doesn't take those two units? Seems a lot like there just Marines! Almost as though each Chapter only needs 4 or so unique units and the rest can be consolidated! Big think time I know.
you cant call gatekeeping for this lol
"How do space wolves play differently?"
someone describes some of the ways SW play different
"How dare you tell people that's the only way to play space wolves, people can play space wolves vanilla if they want to"
again stop being ignorant.
Only one way was described and that's spamming 2 units. That's not different gameplay based on the fact the rest of the units are Codex Marines. Sorry champ but you're wrong.
That's some gatekeeping you're doing there. It isn't a real Space Wolves force unless you're going ham with Wulfen and Thunderwolves.
So what happens when someone doesn't take those two units? Seems a lot like there just Marines! Almost as though each Chapter only needs 4 or so unique units and the rest can be consolidated! Big think time I know.
Please explain to me, in your own words, what you think "gatekeeping" is ...
And no. I think Space Wolves are easily one of the top two or three "most different" chapters. It seems like you don't know anything about them though, so you just look at a picture of a Blood Claw or a Longfang and yell "SEE! SEE!, JUST LIKE REGULAR MARINES!" but even their other units don't function at all the same in most cases. Blood Claws in particular play VERY different. So your statement that "Space Wolves play just like all the others" is pretty far off base almost regardless of what the army comp is. They are actually really different. They certainly CAN play like other marines, but they usually don't.
Now, let's add to that the fact that your original statement not only said they "play just like regular marines", but that they do so "even with the unique factors". When you add in that you seem to feel the "unique factors" don't in any way, change how the army plays, it's clear you're not really trying to argue a point. You're just trying to argue. I know I shouldn't feed the troll and I typically ignore posts like this, but this one was pretty um ... let's call it a "unique factor" ...
I'm actually pro-rolling everyone in, but I'm also interested in hearing why they shouldn't be. That said, if you're going to lay out an argument in either direction, at least know what you're talking about? Maybe ask questions when you don't know? If you feel a certain way, but can't back it up yet, just say that? It will get you further than the character you're currently playing.
If the argument for their uniqueness is spamming Wulfen and Thunderwolves, then it wasn't really a unique army to begin with whether you like it or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 20:23:19
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Yet Space Wolves don't play different to Space Marines even with all the "unqiue" factors. Thanks for playing!
What are you even talking about? They play completely different.
I mean sure, my Red Hunters ALSO have a squad of Werewolves with Thunder Hammers, and OF COURSE my HQs all ride giant wol ... oh wait, no. That's just Space Wolves ...
That's some gatekeeping you're doing there. It isn't a real Space Wolves force unless you're going ham with Wulfen and Thunderwolves.
So what happens when someone doesn't take those two units? Seems a lot like there just Marines! Almost as though each Chapter only needs 4 or so unique units and the rest can be consolidated! Big think time I know.
you cant call gatekeeping for this lol
"How do space wolves play differently?"
someone describes some of the ways SW play different
"How dare you tell people that's the only way to play space wolves, people can play space wolves vanilla if they want to"
again stop being ignorant.
Only one way was described and that's spamming 2 units. That's not different gameplay based on the fact the rest of the units are Codex Marines. Sorry champ but you're wrong.
That's some gatekeeping you're doing there. It isn't a real Space Wolves force unless you're going ham with Wulfen and Thunderwolves.
So what happens when someone doesn't take those two units? Seems a lot like there just Marines! Almost as though each Chapter only needs 4 or so unique units and the rest can be consolidated! Big think time I know.
Please explain to me, in your own words, what you think "gatekeeping" is ...
And no. I think Space Wolves are easily one of the top two or three "most different" chapters. It seems like you don't know anything about them though, so you just look at a picture of a Blood Claw or a Longfang and yell "SEE! SEE!, JUST LIKE REGULAR MARINES!" but even their other units don't function at all the same in most cases. Blood Claws in particular play VERY different. So your statement that "Space Wolves play just like all the others" is pretty far off base almost regardless of what the army comp is. They are actually really different. They certainly CAN play like other marines, but they usually don't.
Now, let's add to that the fact that your original statement not only said they "play just like regular marines", but that they do so "even with the unique factors". When you add in that you seem to feel the "unique factors" don't in any way, change how the army plays, it's clear you're not really trying to argue a point. You're just trying to argue. I know I shouldn't feed the troll and I typically ignore posts like this, but this one was pretty um ... let's call it a "unique factor" ...
I'm actually pro-rolling everyone in, but I'm also interested in hearing why they shouldn't be. That said, if you're going to lay out an argument in either direction, at least know what you're talking about? Maybe ask questions when you don't know? If you feel a certain way, but can't back it up yet, just say that? It will get you further than the character you're currently playing.
If the argument for their uniqueness is spamming Wulfen and Thunderwolves, then it wasn't really a unique army to begin with whether you like it or not.
@Slayer and @sgt you are both so disingenuous.
@sgt
Sure the 40+ datasheets that will need exceptions or new datasheets is totally the same thing as 8. You know as well as I do, your 8 is not really 8.
So great if this works out the way you say it will , perfect, its gonna be a confusing mess of rules this edition... not sure what else to tell you.
A book of exceptions to another book is not as easy as a simple straightforward book of their own... not sure how else to tell you that. but w/e you keeping buying the GW hype and take what ever they dish out to you with a smile. I am content in calling them out.
@Slayer
you are full of it XD . you are mis-representing peoples posts and twisting words. No one is falling for it. We arn't going to argue with you when you are claiming we are saying things we arnt XD lol does this tactic actually work sometimes ?
It doesnt mater. You have made it clear you dont actually know whats in the SW codext. You have made it clear you don't know how they play and you have made it clear that you think the faction is just another skin for primaris... You are full of crap when you say we are gate keeping for suggesting there are ways to paly the faction that isnt vanilla (that literally doesn't make sense, like, there is no logic to this suggestion lol). p.s. way to ignore all the other units, gear, and rules that were presented to you outside of wulfin and thunderwolfs as well lol... but its easy to win an argument when you ignore 90% of what people are saying and you make up different context for the last 10 % huh XD.
So just give it a rest, at this point we can all tell you are grasping at calling us gatekeepers/ putting us down because you actually dont know anything about SW or what you are arguing for... and thats ok, its over now, just give it a rest.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 21:03:04
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/07/28 21:08:38
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
If the argument for their uniqueness is spamming Wulfen and Thunderwolves, then it wasn't really a unique army to begin with whether you like it or not.
This from someone who literally said their "uniqueness doesn't make them different".
Reading is fundamental. To quote a great man "Big brained thinking I know" .... Notice I never said it was the ONLY thing, and went on to list several others. What else you got because I'm not seeing anything here that shows you understand Space Wolves at all.
TL/DR:
Slayer-Fan doesn't get:
1. The definition of "Gatekeeping"
2. The definition of "unique"
3. Space Wolves in general (which leads me to believe that he doesn't know enough about loyalist marines in general to have such strong opinions here but who knows)
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Spamming one unit does not a unique army make. Get over it.
lol no one is saying that. Once again, please stop being ignorant.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
