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As someone just starting out with the SM half of the Elite Starter set, what would be a good next step to filling out for a proper combat patrol?
Units on hand:
Primaris Captain
Assault Intercessors x5
Outrider Squad
350Pts (Salamanders Successor)
I've been considering an Eradicator squad, an Aggressor squad, one of the dreadnoughts, or an Invader ATV and either more Assault intercessors or Company veterans as options to flesh it out a 500pt army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/26 00:23:53
Time you enjoy wasting isn't time wasted.
Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery,
But today is a gift. That's why it's called present.
2021/08/26 07:05:48
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
I'd go with Eradicators, or if you want to put in some non-Primaris stuff, go with Devastators or a Venerable Dreadnought. You could probably use some decent heavy firepower, which is why I recommend those things.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
I have 3 (one of them the EZBuild one) and I'm not sure what weapons to use.
I know I want one double Onslaught 'cause it's funny, but other than that... am I being irrationally afraid of plasma weaponry overcharges?
Personally I think they're excellent! I take 3 in my IH and use a libby to give them all a 5++. Plasma, underslung hog and storm bolters are definitely my recommended weapons, but I also have a double hog one for fun
I have 3 (one of them the EZBuild one) and I'm not sure what weapons to use.
I know I want one double Onslaught 'cause it's funny, but other than that... am I being irrationally afraid of plasma weaponry overcharges?
Personally I think they're excellent! I take 3 in my IH and use a libby to give them all a 5++. Plasma, underslung hog and storm bolters are definitely my recommended weapons, but I also have a double hog one for fun
I'll second this. The Plasma in the right hands can be brutal, and paired with the underslung hog, they can shred through hordes decently enough.
I have 3 (one of them the EZBuild one) and I'm not sure what weapons to use.
I know I want one double Onslaught 'cause it's funny, but other than that... am I being irrationally afraid of plasma weaponry overcharges?
Redemptor plasma is popular right now for two reasons.
One, it's in a sweet spot for damaging DE raiders. It wounds them on 3s, and throwing out average 3-4 shots at 3 damage each is better math against the 5+ invul than weapons that do more damage, but can be stopped by a single successful invul.
Two, it's in a sweet spot for damaging big blobs of AdMech infantry, getting the benefits of blast, and also having the AP to bust through their armor, especially if you also have a way to negate the cover.
An equivalent points value of bikes or outriders is probably better.
3 bikes compared with 5 reivers gets you better toughness, much faster movement, way more firepower, and decent melee even with just chainswords.
I've tried both, and reivers just don't have any punch, but 3 bikes can take or contest a lightly-held objective, score engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines , and last for more than one turn even if they need to go into the open.
One possible exception is a unit of 5 Deathwatch reivers who are a combat squad from a spectrus kill team, because they get obsec. So they could theoretically use the terror troops strat to take any objective they can reach, without having to actually fight anything. They die the following turn, but if you just need to deprive an opponent of an objective for one player turn, or if you're going second and it's turn 5.
But it's a challenge to set up, because you have to use Terror Troops during your command phase, which means the reivers need to be on the table at the start of your turn, and within movement range of the objective you want to take. I've never managed to get it to work personally.
A reiver lieutenant can do the objective-stealing thing too, and costs less, and is more survivable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: On the subject of Phobos, I made a really silly Phobos list the other day, just trying to use nothing but Phobos units:
I doubt it would be any good, but it'd be fun to try.
The most frustrating thing about the list is that everything has Concealed Positions except the Lieutenant.
I've been playing around with the idea of a Deathwatch phobos army. I think if you really want to go all phobos and be effective, then Deathwatch deserves a look.
A spectrus kill team is 5 infiltrators + some combination of up to 5 reivers, eliminators, and/or incursors.
The whole unit gets obsec, so you can make a combat squad of 5 obsec reivers for theoretically stealing objectives (see above), or 5 obsec eliminators for camping objectives. (I can't think of any reason to use incursors in such an army.)
You can use the Vanguard warlord powers for redeployment to move units around, and can get insane movement out of a unit by using shoot & fade to move twice a turn.
You can jigger your points/wargear around to make 3 of your spectrus teams your most expensive units, then choose the "To the Last" secondary and use guerilla tactics strat to hide select parts of each unit in strategic reserve. Because units that enter strategic reserve after the start of turn 1 don't have to come back until turn 5, you can keep at least half a unit safe (for 3 VPs per unit guaranteed) and bring them back turn 5 to score the points.
The only DW limitation is that if you mix concealed positions models in the same combat squad with reivers, then that squad doesn't get concealed positions, so reivers have to go on their own.
A phobos librarian has special tech available to try to score those sweet 15 vps for Pierce the Veil. Deploy him as close as possible to the enemy table edge, then use move & Temporal Corridor to get into position turn 1 to start peircing for turns 2-4. Giving him the vanguard trait Stealth Adept can help to keep him from being targeted. You still need the right setup--a slow-moving enemy and a map where the enemy table edge extends further than the enemy deployment zone (get your librarian to the far corner, preferably behind obscuring terrain), but he can always try for another warp ritual if the mission isn't right. Goonhammer stats show that Pierce the Veil is one of the least-chosen secondaries, but actually has quite a high average score because of how it gets you either 8 or 15 if it gets you anything at all.
But a phobos army would be a non-engagement army, because you don't have anything that can really kill or shift enemy units. It would be an army that focuses on maxing secondaries (engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines, retrieve octarius data are all good secondaries), temporarily stealing objectives here and there, and denying engagement in order to try to win the points game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/31 18:50:01
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
Just won a local 20 man RTT over the weekend, and I'm here to spread the truth of the IH!
My list was:
Iron hands battalion
Primaris Phobos captain-Rites of War, Tempered Helm
Primaris Librarian- 5++ aura/ fight first
Primaris libby- vehicle +1 to hit/ +1 armor save
Bare company vets
Reg apothecary
2x5 infiltrators
5 assault bolter intercessors
10 assault terms, 7 hammers 3 claws
3 redemptors, 3 plasma 2 hog 1 hv flamer (agony)
Volktemptor
Character volktemptor with missile hat, exploding 6s
The plan here is pretty obvious I think, load up the Terminators with all the buffs, send them directly into the middle of the board, and score all the Stranglehold and Oath of moments points, the 5++ guy hangs out with the dreads and casts the fight first onto the terms incase anyone wants to come in and slap em with a fight last (namely DE) while the dreads smash stuff. All the other pieces are mostly for screening, and the interaction with the character dread and the Company vets is just as silly as it seems. My scores:
Vs Mech DG: 74-69
Space wolves:90-21
Emperors Children in the finals (how thematic!): 90-89.
I was not battle ready and all my opponents were, so it was even stronger than it looks! My next version drops the non character contemptor and the missile hat for a sicarian arcus, and the comp vets and apothecary for 2 land speeders. Cheers!
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
How unique are the space wolf small units? I am thinking 1 man cyberwolf units for 15 points and the 5 squad fenrisian wolves for 35 points. Both are in fast attacks.
There are some benefits of small units. Screening and holding objectives. Are those good in currenth 9th edition? Whenever I play SW I always flood my fast attack slots. But they seem good. Should I be taing them more?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/17 18:53:03
I was looking through the elimator profile, comparing it to devestator. And I quite like the laser eliminators.
S8, 3 damage. Laser devestator are S9 1d6 damage.
But they are only 30 points with the laser cannon. They have better deployment. Get better benefits from terrain. And you do not have to pay the sergant tax.
Fusils also loose 12” of range, but on smaller tables that’s less of an issue.
The Str drop is non-insignificant. How much T8 stuff do you see on your tables? (Also T9 stuff, but that’s mostly irrelevant) One perk that LCs have is they wound tougher things easier.
The dev sarge also has a signum, so isn’t pure tax.
I do prefer the flat 3 damage almost all the time.
If you are handing out buffs or worried about slots in a FOC, you get 3 guns in the eliminators vs the Dev’s 4. Probably not a big deal.
Ablative bodies in dev squads if you want them vs. camo cloaks.
Honestly, I think it’s close enough at the same job to go with your heart. The one thing that would swing it would be the S issue. If you encounter a lot of hard targets, go old school and bring the big guns.
In my experience devestators die very fast. They are a very tatsy target, so the armour increase can be very relevant. My regular opponent runs dakkajets that like to eat devestators. But any marine killy weapon are veyr good vs devestators.
Most SM armies I see full out their HQ and elite slots quite fast. I play SW so we usualy want to fill our fast attack as well. (Mechanised Wolf, Fenrisian Wolves and thunderwolf cavalery.) Heavy Support and Flyers tend to not be filled out.
But you bring up some good points. Considering I own devestators (long fangs) and do not own the quite exspensive eliminators the close comparison probably means I am sticking with my guns. My old guns.
Devastators/Long fangs are....interesting. The quad multi-melta, or 3 grav + 1 multi-melta (double tapped with the servo skull and buffed by the signum) in a drop pod is a on-hit wonder. Try to bury an expensive target and basically pray they survive till next turn.
Feels like eliminators will have a better chance of surviving to the top of turn two, and point for point they are both more survivable and have better fire power....as well as being cheaper overall. They might also make a decent back field objective babysitter unit well if you can manage to get cover near their objective, and good LOS.
If you have 200+ points and wanna do drop-pod devastators, they are solid, but if you wanna fill a heavy support slot and have less than 100, I don't see an issue with eliminators. It really depends on what you wanna do strategically.
That said, I dunno if eliminators fit into any sort of arch-type army list I'd build. I'd be using attack bikes or drop melta for my anti-tank.
Looking for Durham Region gamers in Ontario Canada, send me a PM!
See my gallery for Chapterhouse's Tervigon, fully painted.
I do not pay a big attesion to the competetive meta. But drop pod with 2x 1 melta, 3 grav devestators with cherub do pop up in some lists. So we know that is good, as you describe.
I play SW, and there you can do the no negative modefiers to hit stratagem, so you actually get 4 BS 2+ shots of the drop. Quite good.
It strikes me that elimiators with lasers are good vs the chunky gravis armour marines.
Speaking of, why do none of the performing lists run eradicators? When the 9th edition indomitis box came they where overpowered and unbalanced. What gives?
Niiai wrote: I do not pay a big attesion to the competetive meta. But drop pod with 2x 1 melta, 3 grav devestators with cherub do pop up in some lists. So we know that is good, as you describe.
I play SW, and there you can do the no negative modefiers to hit stratagem, so you actually get 4 BS 2+ shots of the drop. Quite good.
It strikes me that elimiators with lasers are good vs the chunky gravis armour marines.
Speaking of, why do none of the performing lists run eradicators? When the 9th edition indomitis box came they where overpowered and unbalanced. What gives?
Eradicators lose out to attack bikes as melta platforms of choice in most competitive lists because of their lack of mobility I believe. Attack bikes play the mission better because they are fast and can be taken in single model units allowing them to be lower risk trade pieces if necessary. They also use their speed to see around obscuring terrain where things like Raiders like to hide. You don't have the freedom to sit and wait for Raiders to come to you.
When Space Marines and Necrons were the only 9th edition books in town, the Eradicators felt like overkill but they have definitely turned out to be well within the power curve of what 9th has produced since.
ok, so im tinkering with Crimson fists. I know they have a bad rep, but I actually think they have merit in the meta. or at least are interesting to play arround with.
1. volkite cotemptors hit blobs on 2+ with those 32 shots in 1 and often 2 rounds due to the CF chapter tactic.
2. Pedro kantor gives you a solid melee presence with +1a and obsec auras.
3. yes, the super doctrine is pretty bad, but at least it helps melt weapons (in drop pods, on attack bikes) kill vehicles every now and then.
4. exploding sixes on all bolters is just really good. it opens up for bolter interceptors and makes a lot of plink ap1 shooting pretty lethal. I especially like what they do to outrider rifle fire.
5. Acess to eye of hypnoth for Lt. rerols on a captain or apothecary. Also, hand of dorn warlord trait is great.
I really love to play them atm.
my list is
pedro with his obsec aura trait
primaris captain with power sword, eye of hypnoth, vox
4x5 intercessors with rifles
5x assault intercessors
Chief apo
2x volkite relic contemptors with missiles
5x blade guard vets
3x meta attack bikes (one squad)
3x bolter inceptors (yup, they are good with CF)
outrider squad
3x eradicators
Land speeder storm
its pretty versatile and has answers for a lot of things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/13 20:55:50
2021/10/18 16:22:35
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chapter Selection: Deathwatch
Detachment Command Cost
+ Stratagems +
Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics
+ No Force Org Slot +
Company Veterans [3 PL, 40pts]
. Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades
. Company Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades
+ HQ +
Primaris Captain [5 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: Dominus Aegis, Frag & Krak grenades, Rites of War, Stratagem: A Vigil Unmatched, Warlord
. 2. Paragon of their Chapter: Dark Angels: Brilliant Strategist
. Heavy bolt pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Relic shield: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted power sword, Relic Shield
Techmarine [4 PL, -1CP, 70pts]: 3. Nowhere to Hide (Aura), Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades, Omnissian power axe, Servo-arm, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Tome of Ectoclades
yeah, thats a cool list for sure. It does lack obsec, though, and I would say it has other weaknesses in how it holds the board too.
Insane shooting, though.
Do you know what he uses the two veterans for? my guess is body guarding the tech marines. what confuses me is thatthey have no melee presence at all. what exactly is their role?
2021/10/20 15:59:29
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
So I'm a sucker for underdogs and I really like the dynamics of Imperial Fists. I lost my mind and bought a bunch of marine kits and I'm trying to cobble together an army that hopefully bucks the trend.
I am going to put the list into functional "platoons" that operate together.
Platoon #1 - Forward Objective Holder
Primaris Chaplain on Bike - Warlord
- Master of Sanctity
- Reliquary of Gathalamor : this provides some measure of psychic defense without taking a psyker on a fast model
- Litanies - 5+++ vs MW / +1 to wound versus closest : this provides yet more psychic defense and amps up a unit to take oncoming units down fast
- Wise Orator
- Stubborn Heroism ( half damage ) : hopefully makes this guy a huge pain to put down
10 Heavy Intercessors w/ Hellstorm ( the 3 shot assault version ), 2x Hellstorm HB
This platoon will make the most of durability to get up to objectives - running if necessary with the assault bolters. They're the obvious transhuman target, but also have +1sv vs 1D, +1sv from Bolster Defences, and +1sv for Shield Unwavering ( if warranted ). For 3 CP this means Wyches will occasionally take the save down to a 4+ and otherwise a 2+.
But they'll be up front and HI suck in combat, however, Shield Unwavering gives +1A. There is also Close-Range Bolter Fire where everything turns into a pistol.
Platoon #2 - Forward Objective Holder
Judiciar
- Adamantine Mantle : 5+++
5 BGV
This platoon takes up the other side hoofing it to any objective. The Judiciar will keep any dangerous melee from being a problem too quickly and he might be able to tank a Succubus on his own.
These guys hold the backfield. The snipers along with the captain work hard with their exploding sniper rifles to take out key characters - especially with Admech. The Lasfusils try to make an early play in Devastator doctrine to put D4 into something dangerous and the Captain will fade them back into cover.
These guys will help get Engage or ROD and/or support the front line.
Platoon #5 - Support
3 Suppressors
Gladiator Reaper, Auto, Icarus, Ironhail
5 Heavy Intercessors
These will go where ever they are needed. Gladiator puts a huge amount of Dakka bolstered even a bit more with some exploding 6s on the secondary guns. Suppressors try and make good in the Devastator doctrine.
Other Thoughts
IF ignores cover, which is fantastic, however, I feel like CF getting +1 to hit vs most units is pretty damn good and increases the mobility of heavy weapons on infantry. Is this worth the loss of ignore cover? Also for some reason Battlescribe is telling me I am taking too many relics in this scenarion even when using Champion of Blades - has anyone else had this issue?
Should I kick the Phobos Captain to the curb? If I did I get get Kantor for +1A to CORE or I could go for Lysander with his rare 3++ and no hit mod fist as well as his ability to turn off attrition. Both of these options make my HI unit feel like it has too many eggs in a basket though. Thoughts?
2021/10/20 21:16:44
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Daedalus81 wrote:Putting The Fist Back Into Imperial Fists
Platoon #1 - Forward Objective Holder
Primaris Chaplain on Bike - Warlord
- Master of Sanctity
- Reliquary of Gathalamor : this provides some measure of psychic defense without taking a psyker on a fast model
- Litanies - 5+++ vs MW / +1 to wound versus closest : this provides yet more psychic defense and amps up a unit to take oncoming units down fast
- Wise Orator
- Stubborn Heroism ( half damage ) : hopefully makes this guy a huge pain to put down
10 Heavy Intercessors w/ Hellstorm ( the 3 shot assault version ), 2x Hellstorm HB
This platoon will make the most of durability to get up to objectives - running if necessary with the assault bolters. They're the obvious transhuman target, but also have +1sv vs 1D, +1sv from Bolster Defences, and +1sv for Shield Unwavering ( if warranted ). For 3 CP this means Wyches will occasionally take the save down to a 4+ and otherwise a 2+.
But they'll be up front and HI suck in combat, however, Shield Unwavering gives +1A. There is also Close-Range Bolter Fire where everything turns into a pistol.
Platoon #2 - Forward Objective Holder
Judiciar
- Adamantine Mantle : 5+++
5 BGV
This platoon takes up the other side hoofing it to any objective. The Judiciar will keep any dangerous melee from being a problem too quickly and he might be able to tank a Succubus on his own.
These guys hold the backfield. The snipers along with the captain work hard with their exploding sniper rifles to take out key characters - especially with Admech. The Lasfusils try to make an early play in Devastator doctrine to put D4 into something dangerous and the Captain will fade them back into cover.
These guys will help get Engage or ROD and/or support the front line.
Platoon #5 - Support
3 Suppressors
Gladiator Reaper, Auto, Icarus, Ironhail
5 Heavy Intercessors
These will go where ever they are needed. Gladiator puts a huge amount of Dakka bolstered even a bit more with some exploding 6s on the secondary guns. Suppressors try and make good in the Devastator doctrine.
Other Thoughts
IF ignores cover, which is fantastic, however, I feel like CF getting +1 to hit vs most units is pretty damn good and increases the mobility of heavy weapons on infantry. Is this worth the loss of ignore cover? Also for some reason Battlescribe is telling me I am taking too many relics in this scenarion even when using Champion of Blades - has anyone else had this issue?
Should I kick the Phobos Captain to the curb? If I did I get get Kantor for +1A to CORE or I could go for Lysander with his rare 3++ and no hit mod fist as well as his ability to turn off attrition. Both of these options make my HI unit feel like it has too many eggs in a basket though. Thoughts?
Chaplain - I think Armour indomitus for the +1W, 2+ save, 1 time 3++ would end up giving you more benefit across your match ups than the reliquary if you want a really hardy character. Between your opponent playing around the 18" range and the non-guarantee of the d3 wounds on fails, I think it will end up being mostly a non-factor. I like the 5+++ Litany if he's going to be babysitting Heavy Intercessors.
Phobos Capt - I'm not sure the Eliminators have the output to justify being babysat by the captain. I'd probably cut him. I also rarely have juicy turn 1 targets for my eliminators because everything is still deployed behind cover.
Secondary Task Force - I think you can strip a little bit of fat here. I'd drop the melta gun and the grav pistol from both company vets for a couple reasons. First, if I'm using them to score Engage points, they are going to be hiding in a corner somewhere trying to avoid attention. Second, if they are just for RoD, they aren't going to get to shoot anyway since they are spending the turn performing an action so you'll probably get one turn to get into a shooting position for a couple short range guns at best? Generally those company vets can make enough of nuisance of themselves from just tagging something versus dealing damage anyway.
Next cut I would consider is the servitors. Between the 5 man HI, infiltrators, couple of Company vets units, and the two eliminator squads I think you should have plenty of action monkey options floating around.
Don't forget that those phobos units can guerilla tactics into the opponent's quarters later in the game as well if needed so they can be both early game deepstrike screens and turn 4/5 ROD options.
The outriders are fine but the Blood Angel in me says trade them for 5 ss/lc van vets. 12" fly on infantry makes navigating terrain heavy boards much simpler and you'll have another unit as an optional action monkey. You'll lose the bolters which I guess is more of negative for IF then other chapters.
So cutting the phobos captain, streamlining the company vets and cutting the servitors gets me 155pts back. There are a few options I think would be interesting: 125 points for a whirlwind as another source of fights last, 150 pts for another 5 man lc/ss van vet squad or outrider squad, 2 melta attack bikes at 120pts for some fast anti-tank / Engage options, 150 pts for twin volkite contemptor...
2021/10/20 23:20:25
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Hmmm. If I drop Phobos Captain I'll still need to pick up a second HQ unfortunately and heavy slots are full. I could probably trim the Outriders, Servitors, and trim the Vets and then sneak a redemptor/contemptor in.
Any opinions on +1 to hit vs no cover? The former is great vs DE and the latter great vs Admech ( usually ).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/20 23:25:54
2021/10/20 23:31:24
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Ah true. Coming from mostly playing BA, I sometimes forget everybody else's Apothecary isn't an HQ slot like the Sang Priest.
I really wish they hadn't bumped the points on outriders. It's pushed them into an area where they are too expensive for me to be comfortable with using them as throwaways and without the killing power to trade for much of anything of comparable value.
I think the IF chapter tactic has broader applicability than the CF. As far as I understand it, the +1 to hit for CF is contingent on the target having 5+ models more than the unit shooting. A lot of armies seem to skew towards MSU lists these days so it seems hard to take advantage of consistently. Especially if you are going to run a big 10 man squad at midboard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/20 23:46:02
2021/10/20 23:38:28
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Daedalus81 wrote:Putting The Fist Back Into Imperial Fists
Platoon #1 - Forward Objective Holder
Primaris Chaplain on Bike - Warlord
- Master of Sanctity
- Reliquary of Gathalamor : this provides some measure of psychic defense without taking a psyker on a fast model
- Litanies - 5+++ vs MW / +1 to wound versus closest : this provides yet more psychic defense and amps up a unit to take oncoming units down fast
- Wise Orator
- Stubborn Heroism ( half damage ) : hopefully makes this guy a huge pain to put down
10 Heavy Intercessors w/ Hellstorm ( the 3 shot assault version ), 2x Hellstorm HB
This platoon will make the most of durability to get up to objectives - running if necessary with the assault bolters. They're the obvious transhuman target, but also have +1sv vs 1D, +1sv from Bolster Defences, and +1sv for Shield Unwavering ( if warranted ). For 3 CP this means Wyches will occasionally take the save down to a 4+ and otherwise a 2+.
But they'll be up front and HI suck in combat, however, Shield Unwavering gives +1A. There is also Close-Range Bolter Fire where everything turns into a pistol.
Platoon #2 - Forward Objective Holder
Judiciar
- Adamantine Mantle : 5+++
5 BGV
This platoon takes up the other side hoofing it to any objective. The Judiciar will keep any dangerous melee from being a problem too quickly and he might be able to tank a Succubus on his own.
These guys hold the backfield. The snipers along with the captain work hard with their exploding sniper rifles to take out key characters - especially with Admech. The Lasfusils try to make an early play in Devastator doctrine to put D4 into something dangerous and the Captain will fade them back into cover.
These guys will help get Engage or ROD and/or support the front line.
Platoon #5 - Support
3 Suppressors
Gladiator Reaper, Auto, Icarus, Ironhail
5 Heavy Intercessors
These will go where ever they are needed. Gladiator puts a huge amount of Dakka bolstered even a bit more with some exploding 6s on the secondary guns. Suppressors try and make good in the Devastator doctrine.
Other Thoughts
IF ignores cover, which is fantastic, however, I feel like CF getting +1 to hit vs most units is pretty damn good and increases the mobility of heavy weapons on infantry. Is this worth the loss of ignore cover? Also for some reason Battlescribe is telling me I am taking too many relics in this scenarion even when using Champion of Blades - has anyone else had this issue?
Should I kick the Phobos Captain to the curb? If I did I get get Kantor for +1A to CORE or I could go for Lysander with his rare 3++ and no hit mod fist as well as his ability to turn off attrition. Both of these options make my HI unit feel like it has too many eggs in a basket though. Thoughts?
Chaplain - I think Armour indomitus for the +1W, 2+ save, 1 time 3++ would end up giving you more benefit across your match ups than the reliquary if you want a really hardy character. Between your opponent playing around the 18" range and the non-guarantee of the d3 wounds on fails, I think it will end up being mostly a non-factor. I like the 5+++ Litany if he's going to be babysitting Heavy Intercessors.
Phobos Capt - I'm not sure the Eliminators have the output to justify being babysat by the captain. I'd probably cut him. I also rarely have juicy turn 1 targets for my eliminators because everything is still deployed behind cover.
Secondary Task Force - I think you can strip a little bit of fat here. I'd drop the melta gun and the grav pistol from both company vets for a couple reasons. First, if I'm using them to score Engage points, they are going to be hiding in a corner somewhere trying to avoid attention. Second, if they are just for RoD, they aren't going to get to shoot anyway since they are spending the turn performing an action so you'll probably get one turn to get into a shooting position for a couple short range guns at best? Generally those company vets can make enough of nuisance of themselves from just tagging something versus dealing damage anyway.
Next cut I would consider is the servitors. Between the 5 man HI, infiltrators, couple of Company vets units, and the two eliminator squads I think you should have plenty of action monkey options floating around.
Don't forget that those phobos units can guerilla tactics into the opponent's quarters later in the game as well if needed so they can be both early game deepstrike screens and turn 4/5 ROD options.
The outriders are fine but the Blood Angel in me says trade them for 5 ss/lc van vets. 12" fly on infantry makes navigating terrain heavy boards much simpler and you'll have another unit as an optional action monkey. You'll lose the bolters which I guess is more of negative for IF then other chapters.
So cutting the phobos captain, streamlining the company vets and cutting the servitors gets me 155pts back. There are a few options I think would be interesting: 125 points for a whirlwind as another source of fights last, 150 pts for another 5 man lc/ss van vet squad or outrider squad, 2 melta attack bikes at 120pts for some fast anti-tank / Engage options, 150 pts for twin volkite contemptor...
Finally! I like minded Fists player. Im running crimson Fists and been trying to get the various rules to fit together in a meaningful Way since the start of ninth. Heres my post from a few weeks back about my current list and all my thoughts on the matter.
Spoiler:
Hi guys,
ok, so I know Crimson fists aren't that strong, but I love them and actually, they have some things going for them.
the flat 3 no minus to hit power fist, pedros obsec/+1a aura and exploding sixes on bolters are all great buffs. The +1 to hit vs hordes can come in handy and in this list (with will be vs necrons) I sort of try to abuse it a bit with the relic contemptors. It will probably only be for that first alpha vs his warrior blobs, but still. Its decent at least.
The plan is to run up with Pedro and 5x blade guards and camp on objectives. Assault intercessors and the vets can help with counter charges and backup. Creating a meatgrinder in the middle where I can take advantage of my buffs would be nice. The dreads, captain, lieutenant and a 2x5 intercessors camp backfield and provide firesupport. Inceptors, attack bikes, speeder and 2x5 intercessors score secondaries and try to get board dominance. The 3x eradicators are sort of the odd ones out here. guess they will just try to pick off a nice target.
Secondaries should be oath, engage and a third matchup dependent mostly, I guess.
Its fine if this can beat necrons, but actually my goal is a bit broader. I have an ongoing league coming up and id love to play crimson fists for that. The mini meta is: BA, sisters, DG, Eldar, Orcs, necrons, custodes and I've tried to build something a bit more all round due to that fact.
a few questions for review:
- Would 2x twin linked Heavy bolters (taking the bolter buffs of CF into account) be worthwhile on the dreads or are the volkites just better?
- do I need a tech marine to justify those two contemptors? I feel the +1 to hit chapter thingy should be enough. but im not sure.
- Should I go down to one dread and then buy what?
- when playing marines I usually always have a drop pod with either grav/melta devs or sternguard/company vets with meltas to take out one thing t1. this list doesn't have that feature and I guess the dreads have that role. is that a good call? I feel some consistant heavy fire from the back field is better in the long run, but the shock effect of having removed a key asset t1 is just so brutal often.
- I just love the 4x5 rifle intercessors. But I can't help thinking if they should be something else. Infiltrators maybe. any comments on that? also, stalkers on two of them would sort of make sense as they will be moving up the board. I just really like the bolt rifle profile better, honestly.
- 3x inceptors. hmm.. I always run 5 normally and I actually find them underwhelming. they kill someting and then just get slaughtered. I figured maybe 3 would make for a less appealing target. is this a crazy assessment?
Sobie wrote: I think the IF chapter tactic has broader applicability than the CF. As far as I understand it, the +1 to hit for CF is contingent on the target having 5+ models more than the unit shooting. A lot of armies seem to skew towards MSU lists these days so it seems hard to take advantage of consistently. Especially if you are going to run a big 10 man squad at midboard.
Well, the one nice thing about CF is that the +1 to hit always applies to vehicles since they "count" as 5 models.
I'm going off memory here but isn't it the difference in unit count that determines the effect though? For example if you have a 3 man squad of Eradicators, they will only benefit from +1 to hit when shooting at a unit of 8+ models? If that's the case, then against vehicles that count as 5 models you'll almost never benefit from the +1...unless it's one of those situations where you have multi-model vehicle squads (ork buggies )
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: What purpose do these 2-man Company Vet units serve, other than being a weird relic of the time when Command Squads were a thing?
They are basically a Swiss army knife that can be equipped anyway you want with the powerful bodyguard ability. The 2 man minimum is probably a relic of the past and how the command squad kit is sold like you said. In competitive lists, you see them in 2 man squads because they are just about the cheapest way to get marine bodies on the board to do actions. Larger squads are uncommon because typically you just end up with slightly more expensive sternguard or Vanguard vet equivalents and the two men with stormshields is really enough to extract max value from the bodyguard shenanigans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 01:03:44
2021/10/21 01:34:43
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Finally! I like minded Fists player. Im running crimson Fists and been trying to get the various rules to fit together in a meaningful Way since the start of ninth. Heres my post from a few weeks back about my current list and all my thoughts on the matter.
Huzzah!
I really like Kantor. Still mulling him and Lysander.
Heavy Bolters might have been gold before the IF nerf, but now they're risky. What you might find is that -1D will make them bite a lot less and since you're facing Orks and DG there's a good chance of that. Same thing for Volkites.
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