Switch Theme:

No more rerolls for non-CORE units  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Why wonder that , when the griffon existed?
I know alot of people that , due to the lack of the upgrade set, did build them out of basilisks, or other similar vehicles.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Not Online!!! wrote:
Why wonder that , when the griffon existed?
I know alot of people that , due to the lack of the upgrade set, did build them out of basilisks, or other similar vehicles.


Because I'm asking how you would kitbash a new unit that you have no visual frame of reference for cheaply.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Well, in 5th people build them according to the pictures next to the codex entry.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Jidmah wrote:
Well, in 5th people build them according to the pictures next to the codex entry.


common example was the carnifex tervigon, which in hindsight was too small, often people put them on a 60mm.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:

They really don't, unless you actively choose to construe it that way. I don't recall players champing at the bit for GW to release a new edition, especially when CA2019 actually got things to a pretty good state. They easily could have delayed the launch of 9th so as to have all the rules ready day 1 in a playtested and holistic state.

Apparently this release schedule is more profitable than doing it right once and for all, though, so here we are.


So you're saying marines were fine after CA19? And that no one wanted a lid put on CP and soup? And that marine rerolls weren't a prime target?


No, but 9th hasn't fixed Marines or re-rolls yet, and in some ways has made them more oppressive (terrain rules that disproportionately benefit high-accuracy, high-save armies with re-rolls, easier access to CP, Blast, reduced melee engagement range). I know for a fact people were saying 'fix Marines, fix CP, fix soup, and fix rerolls' much more than 'please launch another edition that immediately throws the points balance completely out of whack with weird decisions that we can only assume are based on rules yet to come'.

Anyways, we're just about at October and the Marine codex still isn't out, which supposedly will be the panacea to fix all our ills. At the same time, given the constraints of print scheduling, all the codices due to be released through July must already be done, and I would be genuinely shocked if the rules portion of the remainder aren't done as well. Remember, rumor has it that the 9th Ed playtesters were working with 9th Ed codices.

So if we're talking hypotheticals, in a perfect world GW could have targeted a Christmas release for 9th Ed alongside a full spread of rules-only digital codices for free, with the print codices containing all the lore and art for each faction to be released over the course of 2021.

If you want to talk about Marines as the boogeyman, then that would put the fix for them only a month or two further out than is actually happening, and allow that fix to be properly assessed in the context of 9th Ed rules for all the other factions.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Dudeface wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Well, in 5th people build them according to the pictures next to the codex entry.


common example was the carnifex tervigon, which in hindsight was too small, often people put them on a 60mm.


But they still did it, expecting the same to not happen again would be , quite frankly contradictory to human, or in this case warhammer players, nature.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Dudeface wrote:


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.


Not everything can be kitbashed, cheaper than the original model and be 100% GW plastic. I give you that.

But if an original land raider never existed some people would find a solution, maybe merging two rhinos chassis into a bigger tank and then adding the required weapons from spared kits like devastators' heavy bolters, lascannons, etc...

When some models didn't exist, like the ork battlewagon during 3rd edition, it was absolutely fine to scratch build our own versions of those models. 3rd edition ork codex even encouraged players to do so, with lots of pictures about scratch built models, all with just a few bitz from GW plastic or metal. WD also had several battle reports involving orks with multiple units that were full conversions, in GW plastic or not.

Now it's different, sadly. But lots of stuff can be kitbashed with little effort. Maybe not the land raider, but basically the entire primaris roster can be, starting with the cheapest intercessors available and then just converting their weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Why wonder that , when the griffon existed?
I know alot of people that , due to the lack of the upgrade set, did build them out of basilisks, or other similar vehicles.


Because I'm asking how you would kitbash a new unit that you have no visual frame of reference for cheaply.


In that case every conversion works since there isn't an official model and WYSIWYG is always guaranteed then.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 14:00:09


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Dudeface wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

Sure some will, most won't. It costs more to do that and takes both time and skill in conjunction.


It takes more times for sure but typically is cheaper, otherwise why bother with conversions? I made 5 talos and 8 grotesques with ogre and stormfiends parts, same dimensions of the original ones, IMHO looking way better than the original models, full 100% GW plastic and some greenstuff (not GW but no one could tell the difference) for the same cost of 2 official talos models, probably even something less.

My flash gitz are all nobz on 40mm bases with modified kombiweapons, all made with spared bitz I had, I only bought the bases. 30-40% cheaper than buying official flash gitz models which are more expensive than nobz, and IMHO way better looking as I never like the pirate theme flash gitz have. I made tons of other conversions by using only plastic GW, all quite cheaper than buying the official model.


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.
True story, I built Land Raiders out of plasticard on commission during the time when the model wasnt available in 3rd Ed. I used the Epic Armageddon LR as reference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Breton wrote:
We're still a long ways away from getting a well tuned edition. They revamped everything in 8th. It's going to take another pass or two of Codex to iron it all out as they figure out what they broke. And that's before 9th added more balls to juggle like Crusade. Crusade could develop into a league system, as well as a narrative/summer campaign system.


Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


ok let's imagine a world where GW does just that, as a result GW doesn't release ANYTHING, nto a single fething thing at all for over a year.

how would that work out?


Beyond the sarcastic troll responses of "it always has been" for faction X. Lets give this a proper thought exercise:

- All books come out day 1, they contain rules for models that, due to GW's release schedule, won't see the light of day for 14 months
- People complain the models won't be coming out (evil GW)
- 3d printers (as in people who do) and 3rd parties will slowly fill the gaps
- People will buy stand in products of the new hotness to be hyper competitive
- People attend big events, Nova, Vegas etc.
- Peoples lists aren't allowed due to 3rd party models thanks to streams and GW support (evil GW)
- GW release kit at last, people aren't bothered because they already made knock-offs, or if they are bothered they're already salty about tournament situation (evil GW)
- New model doesn't sell as well because of this
- GW decide that range isn't monetarily viable and reduce support (self inflicted by the community evil GW)
That whole scenario is predicated on the idea that the books are released with units without model support, which GW doesn't have to do.

Instead, they could release all the codexes, then add new units/models throughout the year/s using WD and then periodically compile them in CAs. There's more than one alternative to their release schedule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 14:41:23


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Blackie wrote:
Dudeface wrote:


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.


Not everything can be kitbashed, cheaper than the original model and be 100% GW plastic. I give you that.

But if an original land raider never existed some people would find a solution, maybe merging two rhinos chassis into a bigger tank and then adding the required weapons from spared kits like devastators' heavy bolters, lascannons, etc...

When some models didn't exist, like the ork battlewagon during 3rd edition, it was absolutely fine to scratch build our own versions of those models. 3rd edition ork codex even encouraged players to do so, with lots of pictures about scratch built models, all with just a few bitz from GW plastic or metal. WD also had several battle reports involving orks with multiple units that were full conversions, in GW plastic or not.

Now it's different, sadly. But lots of stuff can be kitbashed with little effort. Maybe not the land raider, but basically the entire primaris roster can be, starting with the cheapest intercessors available and then just converting their weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Why wonder that , when the griffon existed?
I know alot of people that , due to the lack of the upgrade set, did build them out of basilisks, or other similar vehicles.


Because I'm asking how you would kitbash a new unit that you have no visual frame of reference for cheaply.


In that case every conversion works since there isn't an official model and WYSIWYG is always guaranteed then.


What happens if you get to the LVO finals and player A has the same unit as player B, using an unreleased unit and player A's unit is distinctly larger, on a bigger base etc. than player B's. How do you rule that?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 vipoid wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

Beyond the sarcastic troll responses of "it always has been" for faction X. Lets give this a proper thought exercise:

- All books come out day 1, they contain rules for models that, due to GW's release schedule, won't see the light of day for 14 months
- People complain the models won't be coming out (evil GW)
- 3d printers (as in people who do) and 3rd parties will slowly fill the gaps
- People will buy stand in products of the new hotness to be hyper competitive


Yep. Because no one ever converted models using parts from other GW models, thus providing GW with income and also ensuring that their models are tournament-legal.


The majority of people possess rudimentary kit-bash skills. Kit bashing also often costs more. People will take the path of least resistance, which is a 3rd party model that they don't need to do anything to and which will cost less.

Additionally, conversions are typically approved by a tournament. What guidelines is the tournament going to use to say a model is good to go or not.

   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Dudeface wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.


Not everything can be kitbashed, cheaper than the original model and be 100% GW plastic. I give you that.

But if an original land raider never existed some people would find a solution, maybe merging two rhinos chassis into a bigger tank and then adding the required weapons from spared kits like devastators' heavy bolters, lascannons, etc...

When some models didn't exist, like the ork battlewagon during 3rd edition, it was absolutely fine to scratch build our own versions of those models. 3rd edition ork codex even encouraged players to do so, with lots of pictures about scratch built models, all with just a few bitz from GW plastic or metal. WD also had several battle reports involving orks with multiple units that were full conversions, in GW plastic or not.

Now it's different, sadly. But lots of stuff can be kitbashed with little effort. Maybe not the land raider, but basically the entire primaris roster can be, starting with the cheapest intercessors available and then just converting their weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Why wonder that , when the griffon existed?
I know alot of people that , due to the lack of the upgrade set, did build them out of basilisks, or other similar vehicles.


Because I'm asking how you would kitbash a new unit that you have no visual frame of reference for cheaply.


In that case every conversion works since there isn't an official model and WYSIWYG is always guaranteed then.


What happens if you get to the LVO finals and player A has the same unit as player B, using an unreleased unit and player A's unit is distinctly larger, on a bigger base etc. than player B's. How do you rule that?
Either A: Accept some slop and roll with the punches.
Or B: Povide a size guideline as part of the datasheets.

It's a solveable problem.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Beyond the sarcastic troll responses of "it always has been" for faction X. Lets give this a proper thought exercise:

- All books come out day 1, they contain rules for models that, due to GW's release schedule, won't see the light of day for 14 months
- People complain the models won't be coming out (evil GW)
- 3d printers (as in people who do) and 3rd parties will slowly fill the gaps
- People will buy stand in products of the new hotness to be hyper competitive
- People attend big events, Nova, Vegas etc.
- Peoples lists aren't allowed due to 3rd party models thanks to streams and GW support (evil GW)
- GW release kit at last, people aren't bothered because they already made knock-offs, or if they are bothered they're already salty about tournament situation (evil GW)
- New model doesn't sell as well because of this
- GW decide that range isn't monetarily viable and reduce support (self inflicted by the community evil GW)
That whole scenario is predicated on the idea that the books are released with units without model support, which GW doesn't have to do.

Instead, they could release all the codexes, then add new units/models throughout the year/s using WD and then periodically compile them in CAs. There's more than one alternative to their release schedule.


It's not just that they don't have to do it, GW outright doesn't do that anymore. The first Marine codex in 8th didn't have rules for unreleased Vanguard units, even though based on the timeline of events they had to already be well along in development.

GW has shown no opposition to releasing rules for units as they come out, and in our hypothetical with all digital rules releases it'd be even easier to add them in as they go, so there is no reason to think an initial release codex couldn't just have all the already-existing units and leave out ones still in development.

...Unless you're actively trying to frame a sane release model as a bad thing.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





I am confused. Why are people talking about GW releasing a codex with rules for models that don't exist? Did I travel back in time to before the Chapterhouse lawsuit?

Releasing everyones codex at the same time (or doing it via a set of indexes) doesn't mean GW can no longer release new units. Christ how many Primaris releases have we gotten between Marine codex 1.0 and 2.0? how many new units have they released since, all with rules.

Why are you talking about hypothetical that don't happen when there is plenty of actual real events to base theories upon?
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.


Not everything can be kitbashed, cheaper than the original model and be 100% GW plastic. I give you that.

But if an original land raider never existed some people would find a solution, maybe merging two rhinos chassis into a bigger tank and then adding the required weapons from spared kits like devastators' heavy bolters, lascannons, etc...

When some models didn't exist, like the ork battlewagon during 3rd edition, it was absolutely fine to scratch build our own versions of those models. 3rd edition ork codex even encouraged players to do so, with lots of pictures about scratch built models, all with just a few bitz from GW plastic or metal. WD also had several battle reports involving orks with multiple units that were full conversions, in GW plastic or not.

Now it's different, sadly. But lots of stuff can be kitbashed with little effort. Maybe not the land raider, but basically the entire primaris roster can be, starting with the cheapest intercessors available and then just converting their weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Why wonder that , when the griffon existed?
I know alot of people that , due to the lack of the upgrade set, did build them out of basilisks, or other similar vehicles.


Because I'm asking how you would kitbash a new unit that you have no visual frame of reference for cheaply.


In that case every conversion works since there isn't an official model and WYSIWYG is always guaranteed then.


What happens if you get to the LVO finals and player A has the same unit as player B, using an unreleased unit and player A's unit is distinctly larger, on a bigger base etc. than player B's. How do you rule that?
Either A: Accept some slop and roll with the punches.
Or B: Povide a size guideline as part of the datasheets.

It's a solveable problem.


GW's current solution, as you know, is Option C: release a model for the rules they sell. They won't be doing either of your options. Why provide guidelines that could be used for buying third party models? That's unthinkable to modern GW.

So much thrashing around over stuff in this thread. To summarise, the through line seems to be "GW should release every Faction Codex on Day One electronically, for free, with perfect rules requiring no errata, did I mention for free. Anything is is predatory and harmful to the customer." Riiiiiight. You don't have to be a white knight to see this is wishful thinking at its finest.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Also let's not forget that even if they were compelled to include all the rules for everything coming out in the next two years for som reason, releasing codices containing rules for things that had yet to receive a model used to be a pretty common occurrence. It didn't break the game.

If tournament play has gotten so srs business that proxying for unreleased units is a serious problem, they could just ban units that don't have models yet and leave it to casual play.

But all of this is a non-issue because there is no reason for a free digital rules update to include things that don't exist yet.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Ordana wrote:
I am confused. Why are people talking about GW releasing a codex with rules for models that don't exist? Did I travel back in time to before the Chapterhouse lawsuit?

Releasing everyones codex at the same time (or doing it via a set of indexes) doesn't mean GW can no longer release new units. Christ how many Primaris releases have we gotten between Marine codex 1.0 and 2.0? how many new units have they released since, all with rules.

Why are you talking about hypothetical that don't happen when there is plenty of actual real events to base theories upon?


Or all the new admech stuff...or all the stuff that's come out in box sets...or all the sisters stuff that was in the codex even before the models dropped, you know that thing that doesn't happen...

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Ordana wrote:
I am confused. Why are people talking about GW releasing a codex with rules for models that don't exist? Did I travel back in time to before the Chapterhouse lawsuit?

Releasing everyones codex at the same time (or doing it via a set of indexes) doesn't mean GW can no longer release new units. Christ how many Primaris releases have we gotten between Marine codex 1.0 and 2.0? how many new units have they released since, all with rules.

Why are you talking about hypothetical that don't happen when there is plenty of actual real events to base theories upon?


They released 1 unit over a year after the first codex via the Executioner. There were the units in shadowspear that ultimately formed the codex 2.0 release, the issue here is if you think they were a separate none codex release, you have to acknowledge that all those photos units and suppressors weren't part of the 2.0 release which makes it... small.

Moreover, how many of the people here whine about rules being spread out too far, about having to buy campaign books, about needing "paid for balance patches", limited time availability rules via white dwarf.

If people want a codex to exist as is forever and have models trickled out, it'll just spawn other complaints.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 15:49:30


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 JohnnyHell wrote:
To summarise, the through line seems to be "GW should release every Faction Codex on Day One electronically, for free, with perfect rules requiring no errata, did I mention for free. Anything is is predatory and harmful to the customer." Riiiiiight. You don't have to be a white knight to see this is wishful thinking at its finest.


Well, nothing says white knight quite like taking a common practice other companies do, then exaggerating it to make it sound unreasonable. Did anyone in this thread actually demand perfect rules requiring no errata or say that anything less than that is predatory, or is that just stuffing for the straw man?

I can go to Corvus Belli's website right now and download both the core rules and faction rules for Infinity. I can go to Warlord Games' website and buy a PDF of the Bolt Action rulebook for twenty bucks, and that includes all the faction-specific rules for the current edition of the game.

Splitting out a game's rules into dozens of expensive supplements, incrementally updating portions of the game piecemeal, is hardly the only viable way to handle a miniatures game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 15:49:49


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.


Not everything can be kitbashed, cheaper than the original model and be 100% GW plastic. I give you that.

But if an original land raider never existed some people would find a solution, maybe merging two rhinos chassis into a bigger tank and then adding the required weapons from spared kits like devastators' heavy bolters, lascannons, etc...

When some models didn't exist, like the ork battlewagon during 3rd edition, it was absolutely fine to scratch build our own versions of those models. 3rd edition ork codex even encouraged players to do so, with lots of pictures about scratch built models, all with just a few bitz from GW plastic or metal. WD also had several battle reports involving orks with multiple units that were full conversions, in GW plastic or not.

Now it's different, sadly. But lots of stuff can be kitbashed with little effort. Maybe not the land raider, but basically the entire primaris roster can be, starting with the cheapest intercessors available and then just converting their weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Why wonder that , when the griffon existed?
I know alot of people that , due to the lack of the upgrade set, did build them out of basilisks, or other similar vehicles.


Because I'm asking how you would kitbash a new unit that you have no visual frame of reference for cheaply.


In that case every conversion works since there isn't an official model and WYSIWYG is always guaranteed then.


What happens if you get to the LVO finals and player A has the same unit as player B, using an unreleased unit and player A's unit is distinctly larger, on a bigger base etc. than player B's. How do you rule that?
Either A: Accept some slop and roll with the punches.
Or B: Povide a size guideline as part of the datasheets.

It's a solveable problem.


GW's current solution, as you know, is Option C: release a model for the rules they sell. They won't be doing either of your options. Why provide guidelines that could be used for buying third party models? That's unthinkable to modern GW.

So much thrashing around over stuff in this thread. To summarise, the through line seems to be "GW should release every Faction Codex on Day One electronically, for free, with perfect rules requiring no errata, did I mention for free. Anything is is predatory and harmful to the customer." Riiiiiight. You don't have to be a white knight to see this is wishful thinking at its finest.


Excuse me? Did I ever say any of that?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 catbarf wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
To summarise, the through line seems to be "GW should release every Faction Codex on Day One electronically, for free, with perfect rules requiring no errata, did I mention for free. Anything is is predatory and harmful to the customer." Riiiiiight. You don't have to be a white knight to see this is wishful thinking at its finest.


Well, nothing says white knight quite like taking a common practice other companies do, then exaggerating it to make it sound unreasonable. Did anyone in this thread actually demand perfect rules requiring no errata or say that anything less than that is predatory, or is that just stuffing for the straw man?

I can go to Corvus Belli's website right now and download both the core rules and faction rules for Infinity. I can go to Warlord Games' website and buy a PDF of the Bolt Action rulebook for twenty bucks, and that includes all the faction-specific rules for the current edition of the game.

Splitting out a game's rules into dozens of expensive supplements, incrementally updating portions of the game piecemeal, is hardly the only viable way to handle a miniatures game.


C'mon, like I'm the first to be hyperbolic in this thread/this site. Nothing says "just here to whine" like not taking my point that GW simply isn't going to change and trying to convince me of something to do with some games I don't care about. I haven't defended any of GW's practices, just pragmatically pointed out they simply will not change them so save the hot air.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.


Not everything can be kitbashed, cheaper than the original model and be 100% GW plastic. I give you that.

But if an original land raider never existed some people would find a solution, maybe merging two rhinos chassis into a bigger tank and then adding the required weapons from spared kits like devastators' heavy bolters, lascannons, etc...

When some models didn't exist, like the ork battlewagon during 3rd edition, it was absolutely fine to scratch build our own versions of those models. 3rd edition ork codex even encouraged players to do so, with lots of pictures about scratch built models, all with just a few bitz from GW plastic or metal. WD also had several battle reports involving orks with multiple units that were full conversions, in GW plastic or not.

Now it's different, sadly. But lots of stuff can be kitbashed with little effort. Maybe not the land raider, but basically the entire primaris roster can be, starting with the cheapest intercessors available and then just converting their weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Why wonder that , when the griffon existed?
I know alot of people that , due to the lack of the upgrade set, did build them out of basilisks, or other similar vehicles.


Because I'm asking how you would kitbash a new unit that you have no visual frame of reference for cheaply.


In that case every conversion works since there isn't an official model and WYSIWYG is always guaranteed then.


What happens if you get to the LVO finals and player A has the same unit as player B, using an unreleased unit and player A's unit is distinctly larger, on a bigger base etc. than player B's. How do you rule that?
Either A: Accept some slop and roll with the punches.
Or B: Povide a size guideline as part of the datasheets.

It's a solveable problem.


GW's current solution, as you know, is Option C: release a model for the rules they sell. They won't be doing either of your options. Why provide guidelines that could be used for buying third party models? That's unthinkable to modern GW.

So much thrashing around over stuff in this thread. To summarise, the through line seems to be "GW should release every Faction Codex on Day One electronically, for free, with perfect rules requiring no errata, did I mention for free. Anything is is predatory and harmful to the customer." Riiiiiight. You don't have to be a white knight to see this is wishful thinking at its finest.


Excuse me? Did I ever say any of that?


It's entirely possible for part of that post to be a direct reply and part of it to not. I think you can figure out which is which, come on...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 15:53:07


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dudeface wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
I am confused. Why are people talking about GW releasing a codex with rules for models that don't exist? Did I travel back in time to before the Chapterhouse lawsuit?

Releasing everyones codex at the same time (or doing it via a set of indexes) doesn't mean GW can no longer release new units. Christ how many Primaris releases have we gotten between Marine codex 1.0 and 2.0? how many new units have they released since, all with rules.

Why are you talking about hypothetical that don't happen when there is plenty of actual real events to base theories upon?


They released 1 unit over a year after the first codex via the Executioner. There were the units in shadowspear that ultimately formed the codex 2.0 release, the issue here is if you think they were a separate none codex release, you have to acknowledge that all those photos units and suppressors weren't part of the 2.0 release which makes it... small.

Moreover, how many of the people here whine about rules being spread out too far, about having to buy campaign books, about needing "paid for balance patches", limited time availability rules via white dwarf.

If people want a codex to exist as is forever and have models trickled out, it'll just spawn other complaints.
The people who make those complains are usually people who look at GW's competition and see them release their rules online for free so they don't need to be spread out to far, don't have to buy campaign books for unit entries and don't need to pay for updated points in Chapter approved.

I'm a fan of that myself aswell, release the rules online for free including point costs ect and still sell a physical codex that gets all the background and pretty artwork ect. Free rules to play with and paid niceness for the collectors or those who simply like having a physical book in their hand.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 JohnnyHell wrote:
C'mon, like I'm the first to be hyperbolic in this thread/this site. Nothing says "just here to whine" like not taking my point that GW simply isn't going to change and trying to convince me of something to do with some games I don't care about. I haven't defended any of GW's practices, just pragmatically pointed out they simply will not change them so save the hot air.


If you don't want to participate, feel free to stop posting at any time. Nothing says 'just here to whine' like whining about people discussing things.

And are you telling me we're not actually talking with GW corporate's Time Travel Division over how they can redo the launch of 9th? I'm shocked.

Anyways, I think there's plenty of opportunity for GW to change their policies. It sure seems a lot more likely when analyzed objectively (they already release AoS warscrolls for free, boxes come with limited datasheets, the core rules are free, lots of companies already do it and GW actively takes cues from competitors), rather than through the lens of your bs strawman.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Don't worry same time as they are reducing re-rolls - they are making terrain that....gives re-rolls

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 catbarf wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
C'mon, like I'm the first to be hyperbolic in this thread/this site. Nothing says "just here to whine" like not taking my point that GW simply isn't going to change and trying to convince me of something to do with some games I don't care about. I haven't defended any of GW's practices, just pragmatically pointed out they simply will not change them so save the hot air.


If you don't want to participate, feel free to stop posting at any time. Nothing says 'just here to whine' like whining about people discussing things.

And are you telling me we're not actually talking with GW corporate's Time Travel Division over how they can redo the launch of 9th? I'm shocked.

Anyways, I think there's plenty of opportunity for GW to change their policies. It sure seems a lot more likely when analyzed objectively (they already release AoS warscrolls for free, boxes come with limited datasheets, the core rules are free, lots of companies already do it and GW actively takes cues from competitors), rather than through the lens of your bs strawman.


I just get bored of every. damn. thread. descending into “GW needs to change its business model!” This thread was about rerolls and a fairly cool rules change. As usual it’s descended into inane whining. You’re right, I shall stop participating because the actual discussion ceased pages ago and this is just all off topic whingery now.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Dudeface wrote:


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.

For a long time there wasn’t, and people didn’t.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Let me guess, GW house own terrain with specific rules tied to it?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in es
Crushing Clawed Fiend





 Mr Morden wrote:
Don't worry same time as they are reducing re-rolls - they are making terrain that....gives re-rolls


I've seen that just now and I thought about this very thread

I hope this terrain thing doesn't become a necessity to play the game, if so it's going to be the same problem.

I think rerolls are pretty problematic for the pace of the game too, I would prefer not to have them. I'm not an experienced player and the games with my friends (also newbies) are reaaaally long.

The Bloody Sails
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 JohnnyHell wrote:
Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Dudeface wrote:


Ok but how would you kitbash a land raider if the model never existed? it's that sort of thing, it's not small infantry arm swaps necessarily.


Not everything can be kitbashed, cheaper than the original model and be 100% GW plastic. I give you that.

But if an original land raider never existed some people would find a solution, maybe merging two rhinos chassis into a bigger tank and then adding the required weapons from spared kits like devastators' heavy bolters, lascannons, etc...

When some models didn't exist, like the ork battlewagon during 3rd edition, it was absolutely fine to scratch build our own versions of those models. 3rd edition ork codex even encouraged players to do so, with lots of pictures about scratch built models, all with just a few bitz from GW plastic or metal. WD also had several battle reports involving orks with multiple units that were full conversions, in GW plastic or not.

Now it's different, sadly. But lots of stuff can be kitbashed with little effort. Maybe not the land raider, but basically the entire primaris roster can be, starting with the cheapest intercessors available and then just converting their weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Why wonder that , when the griffon existed?
I know alot of people that , due to the lack of the upgrade set, did build them out of basilisks, or other similar vehicles.


Because I'm asking how you would kitbash a new unit that you have no visual frame of reference for cheaply.


In that case every conversion works since there isn't an official model and WYSIWYG is always guaranteed then.


What happens if you get to the LVO finals and player A has the same unit as player B, using an unreleased unit and player A's unit is distinctly larger, on a bigger base etc. than player B's. How do you rule that?
Either A: Accept some slop and roll with the punches.
Or B: Povide a size guideline as part of the datasheets.

It's a solveable problem.


GW's current solution, as you know, is Option C: release a model for the rules they sell. They won't be doing either of your options. Why provide guidelines that could be used for buying third party models? That's unthinkable to modern GW.

So much thrashing around over stuff in this thread. To summarise, the through line seems to be "GW should release every Faction Codex on Day One electronically, for free, with perfect rules requiring no errata, did I mention for free. Anything is is predatory and harmful to the customer." Riiiiiight. You don't have to be a white knight to see this is wishful thinking at its finest.


Excuse me? Did I ever say any of that?


It's entirely possible for part of that post to be a direct reply and part of it to not. I think you can figure out which is which, come on...

Oh, you mean you recognize that some people are actually not making those claims but you feel free to paint the thread in hyperbolic broad strokes because . . . ? That's some strong contribution right there.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





So much negativity in this thread and this forum as a whole.

   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




bfdhud wrote:
So much negativity in this thread and this forum as a whole.


I think it might improve depending how the marine release is handled, as long as it's not stretched over 3 months again, because apparently the time span matters more than the volume, people might calm down for a bit when other factions get a chance next year.

And before all the "durrr hurrr hurrrr GW make marine release every 3 monfs" comments slide in, let that be it.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: