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Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






leerm02 wrote:

Hey there folks, quick question:

How viable is running an all or mostly dark-mechanicum list with the new codex? You know a lot of forgefiends, maulerfiends, hellbrutes, that sort of thing.

Can it be done in a reasonably competitive manner?


Probably not.

That said, when CSM is eventually cound to come out, it will probably do a darkmech army MUCH better.
Assuming their tactics will extend to tank too, some of them are bound to be relevant to daemon engines (unlike ours), and they have MUCH better support for them avilable.

We just have the improved statline first, but they WILL match.

Its the "classic tanks" where I think we might outshine them. units that do not have a natural invul and will greatly benefit from it.
(also, I am really leaning towards some HB rapiers just for kicks)


In another note, any tips against drukari? I am struggling to figure out a stratagy against them.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener





Yeah we have a pretty easy time against space wolves. Just deny them a charge on thnderwolf cav and you should be good.
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Knock out the Raiders so you can go after the infantry and HQs.
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





So, I finally got a game in on Saturday with the new dex.

In summary, it was against Deathwing (all terminators) and the scenario was battlelines.

My list was Ahriman on disk, a Exalted, an Infernal Master, a Terminator Sorcerer, 5 x Rubics with soulreaper, 9 x Rubrics with soulreaper, 5 x Rubics will all flamers, 10 Tgor, 2 x 5x Scarab Terminators, 2 x Hellbrute with LC/ML combo, and a Leviathan with 2 x Storm cannons and volkite. He had a bunch of terminators with like 4 or so terminator characters and some deathwing knights.

This was a bad match up for him with all the -2 making his terminator saves less useful and all the mortal wounds I put out. I used duplicity and basically marched up to the middle objectives with my back objective held by Tgors and 5 man reaper squad. I teleported a terminator squad into his back field and just crushed him on the primaries. We didn't even tally up the score at the end. My impressions so far.........

I think both Rubrics and Scarab Terminators are good. Small arms fire is not going to really hurt them, especially in cover, and the -2 on the bolters makes their shooting pretty good. I really liked the 9 man squad as it made it so I had 14 bolter shots plus the cannon and pistol. I used the +1 shot strat on them and that was 21 shots coming out (although I rolled really poorly hitting like 18 of 21 shots but only wounding with 3). The flamers were a good little distraction unit, I am not sure if I would go bigger. However, even the terminators were not all that great in close combat.

The unit that I think showed the most promise was the leviathan. The ability to make the storm cannons -2 with the strat makes a HUGE difference. Anything that does not have -1 damage is going to get chewed up. And I was not even able to use the +1 Strength Pact to make them Strength 8 and wound marines on a 2 (due to deathwing only wounded on 4's). If you have access to a Leviathan I would suggest using it for long range firepower.

I will say I did quite a bit of damage with the MW spam, however, I don't think you can rely on MW spam as your sole "heavy" firepower. Even with the deathwing, which had no screen units, getting all the "closest target" MW spells into position was challenging. Armies with cheap screens will be difficult to get multiple units into position. Also, the MW spam really can't be used against back line targets. Finally, once you are at smite number like 3 or 4 failing the tests becomes a significant worry. I would always bring some long range shooting, like Hellbrutes or other dreadnoughts, daemon engines with long range guns, or maybe even predators.

I also liked Duplicity with the move shenanigans. However be careful as you will fail one of those test sooner or later leaving a unit out of position. But I think this will be my go to cult. I am bring Time for my next game to try other things, but Duplicity just has so much utility. I really liked being able to teleport out of combat and then shoot (as it is my understanding that teleporting out is not falling back, but correct me if I am wrong).

I will say though that I burned though CP really fast, so I am not sure how much I would bring multiple detachments or many additional relics etc.

Ahriman is a beast, and personally I don't think you would ever do a competitive list without him. The re-roll psychic test is so clutch.

The Infernal Master is also really good. I actually used the -2 to advance and charge Pact, and it was quite helpful making one of his knight units need to use a CP re-roll to make a charge (thereby not allowing another failed charge later to be re-rolled). I was going to use +1 strength to shooting, but against Deathwing there was no point. I know everyone is jazzed with the re-roll one dice Pact, but I think he has more utility then that and that -2 to charge could prove vital against CC armies.

The Cabal system was neat, but if we had something really good to soup with I would be ok giving it up. Hopefully Daemons will be good and I can make another Tzeentch daemon/TS list.

Personally I think we have a very good dex. I think we are going to be tough opponents for any kind of elite army. However, I don't know how well we will counter DE or Admech. Hope everyone found this helpful.





   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





 xeen wrote:
So, I finally got a game in on Saturday with the new dex.
Personally I think we have a very good dex. I think we are going to be tough opponents for any kind of elite army. However, I don't know how well we will counter DE or Admech. Hope everyone found this helpful.


Great write up thanks for sharing!

Totally agree with the armies hunger for CP. I feel like its: Webway Infiltration/Risen Rubricae, Extra Relics/Traits or an Extra detachment. Pick one.


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





 Mushkilla wrote:
 xeen wrote:
So, I finally got a game in on Saturday with the new dex.
Personally I think we have a very good dex. I think we are going to be tough opponents for any kind of elite army. However, I don't know how well we will counter DE or Admech. Hope everyone found this helpful.


Great write up thanks for sharing!

Totally agree with the armies hunger for CP. I feel like its: Webway Infiltration/Risen Rubricae, Extra Relics/Traits or an Extra detachment. Pick one.


Oh definitely. Right now I think that realistically you can't go into the game with less than 8 CP. So that gives you about 4 to play with for Relics, WL traits, detachments, etc. I always lose one bringing my Leviathan too, so I start down one (I think it is so worth it however). I haven't been using Risen Rubrics or Webway just because I have been using Duplicity.

   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yup, I agree too. We are very CP hungry. But our relics and warlord traits are great and its so tempting to take a second detachment as well... so hard to choose.

Anyway, can I just rant about our stupid Rhinos transport restrictions?

Tsons Rhinos : Can only carry basically one thing only: Rubric marines. Cultists and Tzaangors not allowed. Although seriously, would it be that OP to have ten Tzaangors in a Rhino ? Tzaangors hit on 4+ and have only 2 attacks of -1AP, 1 damage weapons.

Meanwhile... Admech transport the Dunerider ... carries 12 infantry (2 better). And Admech has literally tons of stuff that is all considered infantry. You can even stuff 12 Rust stalkers or 12 Pteraxli into a Dunerider. Like, how much scarier are 12 Ruststalkers charging out of a Dunerider compared to 10 Tzaangors? And even all space marines Rhinos are not allowed to carry jump pack marines (CSM rhino included). But you can stuff 12 Pteraxli into a Dunerider? Have you seen the size of those Pteraxli ? zzzzz

Somehow, GW thinks that having 10 cultists or Tzaangors in a Rhino is more game breaking than having 12 Rust stalkers or Pteraxli in a Dunerider ???

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/07 23:56:31


 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yup, I agree too. We are very CP hungry. But our relics and warlord traits are great and its so tempting to take a second detachment as well... so hard to choose.

Anyway, can I just rant about our stupid Rhinos transport restrictions?

Tsons Rhinos : Can only carry basically one thing only: Rubric marines. Cultists and Tzaangors not allowed. Although seriously, would it be that OP to have ten Tzaangors in a Rhino ? Tzaangors hit on 4+ and have only 2 attacks of -1AP, 1 damage weapons.

Meanwhile... Admech transport the Dunerider ... carries 12 infantry (2 better). And Admech has literally tons of stuff that is all considered infantry. You can even stuff 12 Rust stalkers or 12 Pteraxli into a Dunerider. Like, how much scarier are 12 Ruststalkers charging out of a Dunerider compared to 10 Tzaangors? And even all space marines Rhinos are not allowed to carry jump pack marines (CSM rhino included). But you can stuff 12 Pteraxli into a Dunerider? Have you seen the size of those Pteraxli ? zzzzz

Somehow, GW thinks that having 10 cultists or Tzaangors in a Rhino is more game breaking than having 12 Rust stalkers or Pteraxli in a Dunerider ???


True ...

Let's hope it'l get fixed in an faq. In the meantime I'll see if my opponents let me house rule it to take the Gors in the Rhinos. Shouldn't be hard, they were just nerfed and no one really cares about Tzaangors anyway

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





I think it's more of a fluff sort of thing. Remember that Legions were massively arrogant, often viewing themselves as above baseline humans. So it does make sense that they'd stop mutants or cultist from using things that would be reserved for the marines.

But that leaves a gap. Why don't the chaos marines have rickety, crappy transports to bus around their meat shields. Pretty much an Ork trukk for Chaos. Cheaper, squishier than a rhino and possibly having a larger transport cap to dump those cultist onto objectives.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, and even cultists are not allowed on Rhinos. Like, cultists are normal intelligent men. Why would they not know how to ride in a Rhino lol. You just sit in it, the door opens, and you run out of the Rhino. Its not rocket science...

And from a size point of view, a cultist model is definitely smaller than a Marine...

I don't think Tzaangors are that dumb either. If they know how to wield a Tzaangor blade, surely they are intelligent enough to sit in a Rhino until the door opens...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote:
I think it's more of a fluff sort of thing. Remember that Legions were massively arrogant, often viewing themselves as above baseline humans. So it does make sense that they'd stop mutants or cultist from using things that would be reserved for the marines.

But that leaves a gap. Why don't the chaos marines have rickety, crappy transports to bus around their meat shields. Pretty much an Ork trukk for Chaos. Cheaper, squishier than a rhino and possibly having a larger transport cap to dump those cultist onto objectives.


Well, its not like the Rhino is some elite transport either. Its literally one of the most common transports around. I would agree to this logic for a Landraider. But a Rhino? Rhinos are a dime a dozen. Cultists are basically like renegade guardsmen. A Chimera transport is every bit as good as a Rhino. And guardsmen ride around in Chimeras all the time. I honestly don't see that much difference between a Chimera or a Rhino other than the fact that they wanted a vehicle specifically for Astra Militarium.

Tsons already have so few units in our roster. It makes zero sense to restrict their interactions even further. Is there any codex out there that literally only allows one single unit into its common transports? Urrgh, thinking about it makes my head spin...

And what kind of gotcha moment or OP strategies are we going to do with having 10 cultists or Tzaangors in a Rhino anyway. Like ohhh.. we got some obsec in a Rhino. Err.. Gotcha ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/08 00:33:05


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Yea the rhino thing is dumb. I am still hoping it is an oversight as GW has done similar stuff in the past and it is reasonable the did not remember tgors are not arcana marines.
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





cody.d. wrote:
I think it's more of a fluff sort of thing. Remember that Legions were massively arrogant, often viewing themselves as above baseline humans. So it does make sense that they'd stop mutants or cultist from using things that would be reserved for the marines.

But that leaves a gap. Why don't the chaos marines have rickety, crappy transports to bus around their meat shields. Pretty much an Ork trukk for Chaos. Cheaper, squishier than a rhino and possibly having a larger transport cap to dump those cultist onto objectives.


To be fair it's said in the fluff that even sorcerers respect enlightened Tzaangors as they are pretty much some of the closest mortals to Tzeentch (barring exalted). Plus, Tzeentch is all about ambition and social ascension so it wouldn't surprise me if TS marines wouldn't at least tolerate the birdmen. Especially since most of the legion is made of unfeeling automates. The empty suits couldn't really complain

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/08 01:34:23


 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Well, if you really want that 4th HQ, and can't afford the CP-a brigade is within the realm of possibility for us...

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, if you really want that 4th HQ, and can't afford the CP-a brigade is within the realm of possibility for us...


Nah, we got trall sorcerors. Getting that 4th HQ is easy. I want two detachments because I want to run two different cults.
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





Had a game against Space Marine Phobos list with a load of units with Concealed Positions.

My list was similar to before (i.e a load of flamer rubrics), I'm running two squads of 10 and 4 squads of 5. This time I had a Cult of Magic patrol.

The game was very one sided. Thousand Sons are really good against power armour armies.

Two interesting things came out of it:

I was defender. I used Risen Rubricae to deploy a line of 10 flamer rubrics in a line 9" from my opponents deployment zone (this was my first unit placement). This shut down the deployment shenanigans completely. I then used the Master of Misinformation to redeploy them in my deployment zone at the start of the game (so as not to sacrifice them). When you have an army that's built around being able to set up within 9" of your opponent and you suddenly can't things don't end well. Well worth 2CP.

The other discovery was you can use the Psychic Maelstrom ritual to cast Astral Blast with a non Cult of Magic unit. This is awesome, as I can now Sorcerous Facade a unit of Rubrics and then cast Astral Blast with them. Makes splashing Cult of Magic very appealing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/08 11:34:26



 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Mushkilla wrote:

The other discovery was you can use the Psychic Maelstrom ritual to cast Astral Blast with a non Cult of Magic unit. This is awesome, as I can now Sorcerous Facade a unit of Rubrics and then cast Astral Blast with them. Makes splashing Cult of Magic very appealing.


Well...that's interesting. It will probably get FAQ'd off, but seems like open season for the moment.

   
Made in us
Raging Ravener





Malevolent charge on an auxiliary target of Astral blast is still my favorite use against characters
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:

The other discovery was you can use the Psychic Maelstrom ritual to cast Astral Blast with a non Cult of Magic unit. This is awesome, as I can now Sorcerous Facade a unit of Rubrics and then cast Astral Blast with them. Makes splashing Cult of Magic very appealing.


Well...that's interesting. It will probably get FAQ'd off, but seems like open season for the moment.


Don't necessarily think it would. From a fluff perspective they are creating a weird time loop (makes sense). From a rules perspective it's clear (big part of the ritual is it allows you to cast something you don't know). So unless they think it's too strong? A lot of the competitive community has written this book off already, so doubt that will be the case.

dreadlybrew wrote:
Malevolent charge on an auxiliary target of Astral blast is still my favorite use against characters


Right which you miss out on using Psychic Maelstrom (as you can't use multiple rituals on the same unit). So I guess there's still an advantage to going Cult of Magic as a main Cult.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Mushkilla wrote:
A lot of the competitive community has written this book off already, so doubt that will be the case.


I think they're writing it off for the wrong reasons ( secondary vulnerabilities ), but it's our job to prove them wrong.

I need to get painting... Battle for Salvation is like a month away!

   
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Bath

Frankly, I don't care if we set the meta on (warp)fire or not, just that we're not in the "and finally" tier of factions. Everything I have seen so far makes me think that this modest goal has been achieved. I haven't had a chance to try our new book yet but i remain hopeful.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
A lot of the competitive community has written this book off already, so doubt that will be the case.


I think they're writing it off for the wrong reasons ( secondary vulnerabilities ), but it's our job to prove them wrong.

I need to get painting... Battle for Salvation is like a month away!


Yeah that's a good point. To be honest remove Abhor the Witch and allow non-character psykers to do warpcraft secondaries and we'd be in a good place.

I think the other concern for competitive players is sisters. If drukari and admech see further nerfs I think we'll see more sisters lists.

Speaking of sisters. I picked up three other tricks against Celestine:

Mutalith - can bypass the bodyguard rule. If you do two mortal wounds against Celestine's squad you can remove a model (because of the Lifewards rule wounds have to be allocated to the Geminae), which if your opponents not careful can leave Celestine out of bodyguard range. This forces them to put Celestine at the back of the chain rather than at the front (furthest from the bodyguards). As soon as she's out of bodyguard range she's targetable with shooting.

Infernal master - mortal wound ability (same as above).

Astral Blast - even though Celestine will be immune to the effects of psychic powers thanks to the dogmata she can still a valid target for astral blast. What this means is she wont take d3 mortals from it. But units within 3" of her unit will still take a mortal wound. So you can inflict a MW on the bodyguard then trigger malevolent charge and do an extra d3. In theory that could allow you to whittle down the Sacristans (even when they are out of line of sight).

Although honestly in my games against sisters I've just ignored Celestine. It's really hard to kill the dogmata that is making her immune to psychic powers as they will always be hidden. On the plus side her hymn is only 6" range and to activate it reliably cost CP (sadly that strat also lets them activate the hymn outside the command phase which means they can move first). That being said if the Dogmata is ever exposed she's easy enough to kill with a targeted witchfire with only 4 wounds. Sure she can be brought back, but that cost CP and miracle dice. If your burning your opponents miracle dice your are one step closer to winning.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/08 20:11:51



 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





I concur with the above statement that we will be good against power armor armies/elite armies with lower model counts and not a lot of screening. However, I think Orks, Guard, and Tyranids will be tough for use. Any thoughts on dealing with hoard armies effectively? I think Duplicity is probably going to be the top Cult, as being able to move units around to get around screens or get out of combat with large hoard units will be essential against Orks, Guard, and Tyranids.
   
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Gangly Grot Rebel




For me, duplicity is not so good at high level

I think fast charger armies will be a pain in the ass

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Horde actually seems to be not much of an issue for me, infernos tend to cut right through them and whittile them down to non-destructive numbers really quickly.


Fast attacker drukari is currently my pain. I just can't figure a way around them.
Stay back and shoot-they claim the middile and win on primary.
Try to get into the middile yourself, and they just pounce at you and murder you VERY quickly, and proceed to win on primary.

Not to mention "herd the prey" is basically unstoppable, as they can easily exterminate any unit foolish enough to try to hang in their backfield.



In other notes, I think I might have UNDER estimated the newcome infernal master.
The fact he is a one-spell-one-prayer that really has no need to get close makes him a great candidate for warpcrating
Slap a shadow seeker trait on him, and interrogation is basically never failing and unstoppable-so either enemy chars have to stay hidden, or you farm them for points. while you still throw around some very valuable buffs-and the ritual to extend range can make it out of range to even attempt a deny.

I'll resume my reviews soon enough as I get more clear time (medical lab employees do NOT have much free time these days), and update some things in them too. (prince, sorry but you are ranking down. you are great, but you just dont *fit*)

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, if you really want that 4th HQ, and can't afford the CP-a brigade is within the realm of possibility for us...


hmm how would we hit the 3 Heavy Support? Triple rapier?

Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





triple land raider. it would be a glorious death

"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." - Lawrence Walsh, Chinatown

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 odorofdeath wrote:
triple land raider. it would be a glorious death


Just what I wanted to say but I feared it might be too much on the nose

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Just do it!

Land Raiders suck, but they suck less in 1KSons armies.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





 BoomWolf wrote:

Fast attacker drukari is currently my pain. I just can't figure a way around them.
Stay back and shoot-they claim the middile and win on primary.
Try to get into the middile yourself, and they just pounce at you and murder you VERY quickly, and proceed to win on primary.

Not to mention "herd the prey" is basically unstoppable, as they can easily exterminate any unit foolish enough to try to hang in their backfield.


I haven't had the chance to play against DE with Sons yet. Sounds similar to sisters in terms of pounce/trade strategy. What secondaries are you taking?

 BoomWolf wrote:

In other notes, I think I might have UNDER estimated the newcome infernal master.
The fact he is a one-spell-one-prayer that really has no need to get close makes him a great candidate for warpcrating
Slap a shadow seeker trait on him, and interrogation is basically never failing and unstoppable-so either enemy chars have to stay hidden, or you farm them for points. while you still throw around some very valuable buffs-and the ritual to extend range can make it out of range to even attempt a deny.


Seeker After Shadows and Psychic Interrogation is so underrated. Fun fact the conditions for Psychic Interrogation can still be satisfied characters that ignore the effects of psychic powers.

"One PSYKER CHARACTER unit from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase if it is within 24" of any visible enemy CHARACTER models."

It doesn't actually target anything. You just need to be within 24" of a character model to be able to perform the action. So if your opponent is going to put Celestine in the middle of the table, or run a Culexus against you can easily score 15 on that secondary. Assuming they don't just hide all their characters.



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/09 09:10:05



 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





If Psychic Interrogation is forcing the Culexus to hide in the back then taking that objective is making it a lot easier to score your other points. That's a damn fine idea.
   
 
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